Calderon vs. Rondo

[JD225]

Seems to me most people defending Rondo in this thread aren't really comparing him to Calderon. That's great he made an improvement over last year, but do you actually believe Rondo is the better PG?

[Rasheeed!!!]

So, where would everyone rate Rondo among EAST PG's?

[kandiking]

is this a joke? looks like the boston-LA rivalry is now spreading off the court into "which fans can be the bigger homers".

[celticfan42487]

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Oh, and that has everything to do with it right? Like Scalabrine said, Celtics posters always seem to go back to "Well, he's on the best team in the league and the other guy isn't, so Rondo's one of the best". I assume Perkins is better than Bosh too because he's on a 67 win Celtics team and Bosh was barely able to crack .500? Am I right?

Did you even read my post. Retorical because you can type I'm going say you didn't. Since no one with enough intellengence to type could of read my post and think I was making an argument for Rondo.

I was saying Calderon is the atypical PG every poster is clamouring for that doesn't win these days, look he's doing something only 5 players have ever done yet hasn't even locked down the starting postion on a .500 team. That's him beign put in comparision to Nash,Larry Bird,Dirk,Reggie Miller.

Some of the best shooters of all time and with the exception of Dirk great clutch performers. All consider stars or close to it. Yet he can barely break the starting rotation.. with that company he should be a starting All-star player in the East. I think everyone needs to take a back seat and notice stuff like this. PGs like TJ Ford, Rondo,Calderon.. it looks like there not the winning PGs anymore, it seems like combo PGs are.

[Derekman]

So, where would everyone rate Rondo among EAST PG's?

behind billups/TJ/Jose/Bibby/Miller

[cb4_89]

I honestly don't see how rondo is better than the eric snow that was on the finals sixers teams. Eric Snow was a great defender and a not so good shooter. Other than speed and other physical differences, I don't see rondo having a greater impact than eric snow did.

[noypi_magicz]

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Very important, because most PGs adept the penetrate-and-kick style, having a good defensive PG can help prevent penetration into the lane (or limit penetration), with that being said i still take calderon.

id rather have rondo's defense than calderons offense for the magic. all rondo has to do is give the ball to turk or dump to dwight and harass the other pg to death. calderon would make it easier to all in the offense but the defensive end is what im worried about.

anywayz glad to have them over any of our pgs

[Derekman]

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id rather have rondo's defense than calderons offense for the magic. all rondo has to do is give the ball to turk or dump to dwight and harass the other pg to death. calderon would make it easier to all in the offense but the defensive end is what im worried about.

anywayz glad to have them over any of our pgs

^^Really? Rondo would me a major liability during the offense. Teams would gladly double off of him and give him long range jumpers all game. Right now, when Dwight gets double teamed, there are usually 4 shooters on the court, so teams are hesitant to bring the double so soon; with Rondo on the team, they would gladly let him beat them than Dwight. I personally think Jose would be perfect in your system. Especially with his exceptional shot.

[wigglestrue]

^^Really? Rondo would me a major liability during the offense. Teams would gladly double off of him and give him long range jumpers all game. Right now, when Dwight gets double teamed, there are usually 4 shooters on the court, so teams are hesitant to bring the double so soon; with Rondo on the team, they would gladly let him beat them than Dwight. I personally think Jose would be perfect in your system. Especially with his exceptional shot.

They've been doing that all year, and he's been making them.
Again, his midrange shot has been consistent, above average even.
I'm talking about shots from a few feet within the arc.
He hasn't been an offensive liability, at all.

[T-Spot]

^^Really? Rondo would me a major liability during the offense. Teams would gladly double off of him and give him long range jumpers all game. Right now, when Dwight gets double teamed, there are usually 4 shooters on the court, so teams are hesitant to bring the double so soon; with Rondo on the team, they would gladly let him beat them than Dwight. I personally think Jose would be perfect in your system. Especially with his exceptional shot.

They've been doing that all year, and he's been making them.
Again, his midrange shot has been consistent, above average even.
I'm talking about shots from a few feet within the arc.
He hasn't been an offensive liability, at all.

Reason's why he can be an offensive liability

1. 3-point shooting. Teams like Orlando [since they were mentioned] use the 3-point shot liberally. Jameer is a 41% shooter from behind the arc, thus a better point guard option offensively [shooting wise] rather than Rondo for Orlando.

2. His mid-range shooting is indeed above average for a point guard if you just look purely at the stats. When you factor in how much he uses it compared to a few other point guards and that the majority of the time he is wide open, you can see why he is not "above average". 43% on 180 mid-range attemps [with the majority being open shots] is not impressive.

For example, Arena's shooting 40% on 414 mid-range shots [with the majority being contested] is far more impressive than Rondo. Ditto for Billups, Monta, Hinrich, Udrih, Fisher, Terry, Miller, Ford, Parker. Even people that use the shot as much as Rondo [~180 attempts] still shot at a comparable [if not higher] % [Head, Telfair, Farmar] despite being contested more.

Besides the two I singled out, all these guys not only use the shot more than Rondo, they make the same around percentage [anywhere from 0-3% difference besides Fisher and Ford who are better at the shot] of the shot, despite bieng contested more.

Finally, why do you think coaches are leaving Rondo unattended? Because the scouts they pay big money to are some how missing the great mid-range shooting talent the point guard for the best team in the league has? No. They like the fact that Rondo is not going to shoot the mid-range jumper too much, and would rather play the %'s on his mid-range shot [43% on usually uncontested mid-range shots] and double down on "The Big Three". There's a reason why he's open.

Simply put, I don't find 43% on open mid-range jump shots all that great.

3. Free throws. He only goes to the stripe once a game [2 attempts] but in the clutch, you want to main ball handler to be a good free-throw shooter. Its an extra insurance blanket. Plus, I usually like to tab good shooters by their free-throw %. It might be wrong, but I do it anyway.

[wigglestrue]

Simply put, I don't find 43% on open mid-range jump shots all that great.

It's not great, but 43.8% is decidedly above average.
And no, not all of his jumpers are uncontested.

[T-Spot]

Simply put, I don't find 43% on open mid-range jump shots all that great.

It's not great, but 43.8% is decidedly above average.
And no, not all of his jumpers are uncontested.

Most are. And no, 43.8% on a majority of uncontested jumpshots is not decidedly over average mid-range shooting ability.

[wigglestrue]

Most are. And no, 43.8% on a majority of uncontested jumpshots is not decidedly over average mid-range shooting ability.

I'm tired of this. He hits the shots he takes at a good rate. He has good, stable form and a soft touch. Not all of his shots are uncontested, and not all of the other guards' shots are contested. Arguing over minute differences in percentages is ultimately a waste of time. He became a solid midrange shooter this year. Any person who has watched him consistently knows that. The end.

[T-Spot]

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I'm tired of this. He hits the shots he takes at a good rate. He has good, stable form and a soft touch. Not all of his shots are uncontested, and not all of the other guards' shots are contested. Arguing over minute differences in percentages is ultimately a waste of time. He became a solid midrange shooter this year. Any person who has watched him consistently knows that. The end.

I'm also tired of this. He hits the mid-range shots he takes at a nice [despite being totally misleading] rate. He has good form. Most of his shots are uncontested [never said all of his shots are uncontested, so I dunno why you keep bringing that up], and most of the other guards have thier shots contested more [you tried to compare his mid-range shooting % to guards like Arenas, Billups, Parker, Ellis, Hinrich [meh, he's still a decent shooter], Miller (ie; People who are on the "Do not leave open" part of the scouting report) and its biting you in the ass.] Arguing over differences in percentages makes sense if I feel an unrealistic preception [second best player in the Atlantic behind Bosh and Iggy/Better than Ford and Calderon] of Rondo's game is being given. [I believe you said he had a "feathery touch that is the league's envy"? That high praise has fallen quite a bit to "solid midrange shooter" after some argument I guess] He became a better midrange shooter this year. Any person who has watched Calderon consistantly knows that Rondo isn't as good [nor is he in the same league offensivley and as a playmaker/floor general]. The End.

[So, we're done?]

[Scalabrine]

I honestly don't see how rondo is better than the eric snow that was on the finals sixers teams. Eric Snow was a great defender and a not so good shooter. Other than speed and other physical differences, I don't see rondo having a greater impact than eric snow did.

Thats what I said, I think Snow was better on the Sixers than Rondo is now.

[Schad]

Simply put, I don't find 43% on open mid-range jump shots all that great.

It's not great, but 43.8% is decidedly above average.
And no, not all of his jumpers are uncontested.

Again, we went over this. His percentages on 2pt jumpers are decidedly below average for a point guard. Here they are again:

http://www.82games.com/FGSORT7.HTM

[NormanDale]

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I'm also tired of this. He hits the mid-range shots he takes at a nice [despite being totally misleading] rate. He has good form. Most of his shots are uncontested [never said all of his shots are uncontested, so I dunno why you keep bringing that up], and most of the other guards have thier shots contested more [you tried to compare his mid-range shooting % to guards like Arenas, Billups, Parker, Ellis, Hinrich [meh, he's still a decent shooter], Miller (ie; People who are on the "Do not leave open" part of the scouting report) and its biting you in the ass.] Arguing over differences in percentages makes sense if I feel an unrealistic preception [second best player in the Atlantic behind Bosh and Iggy/Better than Ford and Calderon] of Rondo's game is being given. [I believe you said he had a "feathery touch that is the league's envy"? That high praise has fallen quite a bit to "solid midrange shooter" after some argument I guess] He became a better midrange shooter this year. Any person who has watched Calderon consistantly knows that Rondo isn't as good [nor is he in the same league offensivley and as a playmaker/floor general]. The End.

[So, we're done?]

I don't know what wigglestrue posted on other threads that seems to have gotten everyone's panties in a bunch, and I haven't had the chance to watch enough calderon this year to know who's better, but I do know that rondo has been better than any commentators expected this year, and has definitely been an above-average pg.

I'm not going to spend time rehashing stats that have already been mentioned, but I will say one thing regarding the "rondo is only good because of the big 3" fallacy. It has seemed to me, this year, that rondo scores a lot more and creates more offensively when the big three aren't all in the game: when he has to step up his offense because of the personnel on the floor, he does it capably. The 17 games without the big three bear this out, but i would be interested to know the per-minute stats with and without them as well. I bet they will tell the same story. Face it, guys: Rondo is a good player.

It does seem to me like a bit of this is the fact that people want to feel good about their own team's chances against the celtics, and the best rationalization to explain the celtics' vulnerability is to say that rondo is not good. from watching this season, it just seems out of touch with reality.

although maybe celtics fans are just cheap dates because rondo is the best pg we've had in nearly 20 years. who knows.

[OhMyBosh]

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I don't know what wigglestrue posted on other threads that seems to have gotten everyone's panties in a bunch, and I haven't had the chance to watch enough calderon this year to know who's better, but I do know that rondo has been better than any commentators expected this year, and has definitely been an above-average pg.

I'm not going to spend time rehashing stats that have already been mentioned, but I will say one thing regarding the "rondo is only good because of the big 3" fallacy. It has seemed to me, this year, that rondo scores a lot more and creates more offensively when the big three aren't all in the game: when he has to step up his offense because of the personnel on the floor, he does it capably. The 17 games without the big three bear this out, but i would be interested to know the per-minute stats with and without them as well. I bet they will tell the same story. Face it, guys: Rondo is a good player.

It does seem to me like a bit of this is the fact that people want to feel good about their own team's chances against the celtics, and the best rationalization to explain the celtics' vulnerability is to say that rondo is not good. from watching this season, it just seems out of touch with reality.

although maybe celtics fans are just cheap dates because rondo is the best pg we've had in nearly 20 years. who knows.

Well then you haven't been listening to the media outside of Boston. Calderon was putting up stats that even sparked all-star consideration. Obviously, I don't think he's an all-star, but the fact he got mentioned would mean he is better than Rondo.

And again: no one is saying Rondo isn't a good player. Why do people keep assuming everyone thinks that? This is just a comparison between him and Calderon.

If everyone is going to talk about the huge improvement of Rondo's mid-range shooting, why not talk about Jose? His rookie season, he threw up bricks on a nightly basis. The second year, he developed a mid-range that's passable (shot 52%). And now, he is one of the better 3pt shooters in the entire league (11th). He even shoots 91% from the FT line.

Rondo isn't the only player who has improved their shooting. If anything, Calderon's overall improvements this season is greater and more surprising than Rondo's.

Calderon is one of the best point guards in the league right now. I have him just outside the top 10. There's no way I would even consider Rondo in that position as of right now in his career.

[T-Spot]

I'm not going to spend time rehashing stats that have already been mentioned, but I will say one thing regarding the "rondo is only good because of the big 3" fallacy. It has seemed to me, this year, that rondo scores a lot more and creates more offensively when the big three aren't all in the game: when he has to step up his offense because of the personnel on the floor, he does it capably.

I could use a same sort of argument for Calderon.

When you look at his numbers as a sole starter without TJ Ford, its pretty much legit top-10 point guard stuff. I could make a case that having to share the point guard position with Ford has limited Calderon and his production. He was benched in order for Ford to be able to play at a high level again [as Ford was terrible off the bench, so Calderon gave up the starting position for Ford] I'd have no problem pulling up stats to back that up [when I last checked it was 15 ppg, 10 apg, 54%, 46%, 92% as the sole point guard.]

But I don't use that theory for the sheer fact that it is what it is, and we'll never really know if its true.