Average NBA Starters 1963-2008; Comparison w/Normalized Stat

[TrueLAfan]

To sort of even things up between eras, I've always wondered--who is the average starting player in the NBA, by position, in different years? This helps remove eras differences, and balances out the increased numbers of quality players with expansion. Was there more depth in the past? Was it at certain positions? Were players that much bigger or smaller?

About a month ago, I finally got started on this. It's taken a while. I chose teams at 5 year intervals starting in 1963 and going up to this season. And a lot of this is subjective...you may think the guy I list as the 13th best SG of 1998 should be 18th. Or 10th. I don't think it makes that much difference, though. Moving a player up or down a slot or two isn't going to change things a lot.

I also normalized the stats for older players...all the listed numbers are for a 98 ppg, 42 rpg league, which is almost exactly what we had this year. So everyone is playing on a far more level playing field.

Some time in the mid-1970s, players started being measured with shoes. College weights were usually given for players until this period as well. So any player listed that was drafted before 1974--I added 1 to 1 1/2 inches and 10-15 pounds. This is the height difference that shoes generally give according to NBA pre-draft measurements.

Players had to play at least 50 games, and start at least 80% of the games they played. If you are Clyde Drexler in 1993, and you only played 49 games--you're out of luck.

When there's an even number of teams in the league, I varied the depth of players...two ro three positions got rounded up (10th in a 20 team league, for example). Two or three got rounded down (11th in a 20 team league).

I also wrote a few notes after each season--just some personal observations, nothing serious.

This is NOT intended to be a competition to figure out who was the 14th best SG in 1993 or something like that. If you disagree with my rankings, that's fine...but, again, in that midrange realm of players in a given year, I just don't think it will make that much difference. So, please, don't post about how you think West was a SG in one season or how Steve Blake got snubbed or something. Really, I just wanted to see how "average" starters matched up--and if anyone comments, I'd prefer they focus on that..as well as the incredible depth that the league had from time to time at certian positions. So here we go.

[TrueLAfan]

Average NBA starters--1963. 9 team league.
C--Wayne Embry, 25, 6'9", 255 (behind Wilt, Russell, Bellamy, and Kerr)
33.0 mpg, 15.8 ppg, 8.8 rpg, 2.3 apg
PF--Rudy LaRusso, 25, 6'9", 235 (behind Pettit, Heinsohn, Howell, and Boozer)
33.4 mpg, 10.5 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 2.5 apg
SF-- Ray Scott, 24, 6'10", 225 (behind Baylor, Twyman, Dischinger, Havlicek)
25.5 mpg, 13.8 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 2.5 apg
SG--Dick Barnett, 26, 6'5", 200 (behind Jones, Greer, Ohl, and DeBusschere)
31.8 mpg, 15.3 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 2.8 apg
PG--Lenny Wilkins, 25, 6'2", 190 (behind Oscar, West, Guerin, and Ohl)
34.3 mpg, 10.0 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 5.1 apg

Notes. Well, first off, if you're interested in or knowledgeable about old hoops, you're probably thinking. "Dave DeBusschere isn't a SG. And Jerry West isn't a PG." Well, this season, they were. The Pistons had Bob Ferry, Bailey Howell, Walter Dukes and Darell Imhoff at PF/C. Ray Scott played SF. The Pistons had a huge team; DeBusschere played more at SG than any other position. Same with the Lakers; West was the smallest guy on the team--he led the team in APG. Barnett was a swingman who had one of his best years. Most of the guards were combo guards anyway...and, just so we're clear, I left Bob Cousy and Guy Rodgers off the list. The era was not hurting for guards.

Ray Scott was an interesting player. I saw him play when I was very young, and he was at the end of the line. He had bulked up then, but he still was a good combo low post/perimeter player--kind of a precursor to Rasheed Wallace. He wasn't as good as Sheed, but he was pretty damn good, and could be slotted in at C or either F position.

Average NBA starters--1968. 12 team league.
C--Bob Rule, 23, 6'10.5", 235 (behind Wilt, Russell, Thurmond, Bellamy, and Beaty)
29.1 mpg, 15.2 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 1.5 apg
PF--Bob Boozer, 26, 6'9", 230 (behind Reed, Lucas, G. Johnson, Bridges, Howell, and LaRusso)
38.8 ppg, 18.1 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 1.6 apg
SF--Cazzie Russell, 23, 6'6", 228 (behind Havlicek, Baylor, Walker, Cunningham, Hairston, and Hetzel)
28.0 mpg, 14.2 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 2.4 apg
SG--Jeff Mullins, 26, 6'5", 200 (behind Jones, Greer, Monroe, Clark, and Miles)
35.5 mpg, 15.9 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 4.5 apg
PG--Walt Frazier, 22, 6'5", 215 (behind Oscar, West, Bing, Abdul-Rahman, and Wilkins)
21.5 mpg, 7.6 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 4.2 apg
or
Al Attles, 31, 6'1", 190
29.7 mpg, 9.0 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 5.8 apg

Notes. A good scoring, lousy rebounding team. Keep in mind this is Frazier's rookie year. He was not the player he would become (that would come a year later). But he was still good. In this, his rookie year, he was just surpassing Al "the Destroyer" Attles, who I would have loved to have on the list and included anyway. Speaking of "good," this was also Bob Rule's rookie year, before his terrific second and third year breakout, where he was a 24.5 and 10.5 player. He blew out a knee at the beginning of his fourth season and never was able to come back...a real loss. He is a guy that could have had a HOF career that is completely forgotten now. In the same vein....nobody remembers Pork Chop Mullins. He was a good ballplayer; this was not a top year for him, and he still was good. Made the All-Star team in the next three years.

[TrueLAfan]

Average NBA starters--1973. 17 team league.

C--Sam Lacey, 24, 6'11.5", 250 (behind Kareem, Wilt, Lanier, Cowens, Thurmond, Bellamy, Unseld, and Walk)
37.1 mpg, 12.3 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 2.4 apg
PF--Bob McAdoo, 21, 6'10", 225 (behind Hayes, Haywood, Hawkins, Wicks, DeBusschere, Silas, Tomjanovich, and Kauffman)
32.0 mpg, 16.4 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 1.7 apg
SF--John Johnson, 25, 6'8", 210 (behind Barry, Havlicek, Dandridge, Hudson, Love, Marin, McMillan, and Rowe)
34.3 mpg, 13.1 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 3.8 apg
SG--Lucius Allen, 25, 6'2", 175 (behind Monroe, Riordan, Goodrich, Petrie, Maravich, Walker, Carr, and Mullins)
33.7 mpg, 14.1 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 5.3 apg
PG--Norm Van Lier, 25, 6'2", 185 (behind Frazier, Archibald, West, White, Wilkins, Bing, Oscar, and Scott)
36.0 mpg, 12.7 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 7.1 apg

Notes. Kind of an embarrassment of riches at C...Elmore Smith and Rick Roberson, who had great seasons, didn't make the cut. This is McAdoo in his rookie season, when he was actually the second best PF on his team (Bob Kauffman was an All-Star). Great depth at PG...a lot of great, great players there. Lucius Allen was a combo guard that played the 2 alongside Oscar (and did it very well). Considering the ABA is in full swing at this point, the depth of the NBA is really surprising.

Average starters--1978. 22 team league.
C--Billy Paultz, 29, 7'0", 245 (behind Kareem, Walton, McAdoo, Lanier, Cowens, Artis, Moses, Issel, Unseld,Webster, Nater)
31.0 mpg, 14.3 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 2.7 apg
PF--John Shumate, 25, 6'9", 235 (behind Hayes, Roundfield, Robinson, McGinnis, Lucas, Mickey Johnson, Shelton, Chones, Washington, and Jones)
34.5 mpg, 13.4 ppg, 7.6 rpg, 2.3 apg
SF--Campy Russell, 26, 6'8", 215 (behind Erving, King, Marques Johnson, Barry, Dandridge, Davis, Knight, Havlicek, Kenon, Drew, and Davis)
35.0 mpg, 15.0 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 3.7 apg
SG--Freddie Brown, 27, 6'4", 192 (behind Gervin, Westphal, Thompson, Phil Smith, Randy Smith, Williamson, Monroe, Murphy, Maravich, and Collins)
27.3 mpg, 17.5 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 3.9 apg
PG--Don Buse, 27, 6'4", 190 (behind Lucas, Sobers, Hollins, Porter, Frazier, Money, Williams, Nixon, Allen, and Goodrich)
31.1 mpg, 7.6 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 4.8 apg

Notes. Continued extreme depth at C...guys like Alvan Adams and Robert Parish and Rich Kelley didn't make the cut. Lot of depth at SF too...Campy Russell didn't play much D, but he was a good player anyway. On the opposite end, you've got Don Buse, who was one of the better PG defenders of all time. He was only an adequate passer for a PG and wasn't much of a scorer...but he had range, didn't make mistakes with the ball, and was a lockdown defender. Handy player. This is a very good team.

[TrueLAfan]

Average starters--1983. 23 team league.
C--Bill Cartwright, 25, 7'1", 245 (behind Malone, Abdul-Jabbar, Artis, Parish, Sikma, Ruland, Laimbeer, Issel, Adams, H. Williams, and Corzine)
30.1 mpg, 14.2 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 1.4 apg
PF--Elvin Hayes, 37, 6'10", 245 (behind B. Williams, Cummings, Roundfield, Kellogg, Lucas, Nance, Thompson, C. Robinson, Mahorn, C. Robinson, and Banks)
28.4 mpg, 11.6 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 2.0 apg
SF--Greg Ballard, 26, 6'7", 215 (behind Bird, Erving, English, M. Johnson, Aguirre, King, Wilkes, Natt, Mitchell, Short, and Tripucka)
36.4 mpg, 16.3 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 3.4 apg
SG--Vinnie Johnson, 26, 6'2", 200 (behind Moncrief, Gervin, Free, Griffith, Paxson, Davis, Toney, Theus, Woodson, Blackman, and E. Johnson [SG/SF])
30.6 mpg, 14.3 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 3.4 apg
PG--Geoff Huston, 25, 6'2", 175 (behind Magic, Isiah, G. Williams, Green, Cheeks, DJ, Archibald, Drew, Nixon, Davis, and Moore)
34.0 mpg, 11. ppg, 2.0 rpg, 6.5 apg

Notes: C is still strong, but weakening; this is the era of the SF. Some weird things this year; I didn't know what to do with Kiki Vandeweghe; he played at PF, but that was in Denver's wacky system...I just left him out. I don't like him. Sue me. Nixon and Magic are both on the PG list, which is a little unfair, but I also dinged Michael Ray, who was sadly losing his fight with drug addiction at this point, so it balances out a bit. Geoff Huston...gut hurt in, like, his fifth year. He wasn't a great player--sort of one the guys where you say, "Well, we had ____ for a while...remember?" But he had a couple of pretty good years, and this was one of them.

Average starters--1988. 23 team league.
C--Roy Hinson, 26, 6'9", 210 (behind Olajuwon, Ewing, Malone, Daugherty, Laimbeer, Parish, Gminki, Duckworth, Abdul-Jabbar, Stipanovich, and Benjamin)
33.7 mpg, 13.9 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 1.3 apg
PF--Rick Mahorn, 29, 6'10", 240 (behind K. Malone, Barkley, McHale, B. Williams, Sikma, Nance, Chambers, Thorpe, Tarpley, Oakley, and Cage)
29.3 mpg, 9.7 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 0.9 apg
SF--Cliff Robinson, 27, 6'9", 220 (behind Bird, D. Wilkins, Aquirre, English, Worthy, McDaniel, Mullin, Dantley, Cummings, Kersey, and Bailey)
34.0 mpg, 17.2 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 2.1 apg
SG--Danny Ainge, 28, 6'4", 175 (behind Jordan, Drexler, Ellis, Scott, J. Malone, Theus, Davis, Blackman, G. Wilkins, Woodson, and Dumars)
37.3 mpg, 14.2 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 6.2 apg
PG--Vern Fleming, 25, 6'5", 185 (behind Magic, Isiah, Lever, Stockton, Robertson, Porter, Harper, Cheeks, Rivers, DJ, and McMillan)
34.2 mpg, 12.6 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 7.1 apg

Notes. Definitely on the slide at C...although Roy Hinson was an OK player. Cliff Robinson is interesting...a combo forward that moved to SF so Barkley could play at PF. He was good for quite a while in the NBA. Still a lot of strength at SF. Sikma went from C to PF when the Bucks used the Winnebago Wall...PF is strong in this period too, and growing stronger (the late 90s ushered in the decade of the PF). SG is weaker. PG is very solid...Vern Fleming was a good player.

[TrueLAfan]

Average starters--1993. 27 team league
C--Sean Rooks, 23, 6'10", 250 (behind Hakeem, O'Neal, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo, Daugherty, Divac, Seikaly, Smits, Parish, Roberts, and Cage)
29.2 mpg, 12.6 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 1.3 apg
PF--Otis Thorpe, 30, 6'9", 225 (behind Barkley, K. Malone, Kemp, L. Johnson, Nance, Coleman, Gugliotta, Ho. Grant, Rodman, Willis, Ellis, Laettner, and Green)
32.7 mpg, 11.9 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 2.5 apg
SF--Clarence Weatherspoon, 22, 6'6", 240 (behind Pippen, Wilkins, Manning, Schrempf, Rice, Lewis, Person, Edwards, Robinson, Ha. Grant, Simmons, Elliott, and Gill)
32.4 mpg, 14.5 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg
SG--Dale Ellis, 32, 6'7", 205 (behind Jordan, Dumars, Petrovic, Miller, Hawkins, Anderson, Pierce, R. Harper, Starks, J. Malone, Majerle, Abdul-Rauf, and West)
33.3 mpg, 15.5 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 1.3 apg
PG--Sedale Threatt, 31, 6'2", 175 (behind Stockton, Hardaway, Isiah, Hornacek, Jackson, K. Anderson, D. Harper, Porter, Price, Strickland, Williams, Skiles, and Blalock)
35.3 mpg, 14.1 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 6.9 apg

Notes: A serious dropoff in the second tier Cs...after Rooks, the cupboard is really bare. This is one of Otis Thorpe's worst years...he was a very, very good player--just not in 1993. Still, he's plenty serviceable. Dale Ellis is well into his "I'm a shooter and nothing more" period. And if you're over 20 and you're a Laker fan, you probably remember the Sedale Threatt Experiment. How he was supposed to be a perfect fit. How he was a multi-talented player. How he wasn't. This was one of his two best years. In general, rthis is a weak team.

Average starters--1998. 29 team league.
C--Shawn Bradley, 25, 7'5", 235 (behind O'Neal, D. Robinson, Mourning, Sabonis, Mutombo, Dele, Ilgauskas, Reeves, Camby, Smits, Divac, Dampier, Austin, and Seikaly)
28.5 mpg, 11.7 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 0.9 apg
PF--Brian Grant, 25, 6'9", 254 (behind Malone, Duncan, Webber, Rodman, Baker, Kemp, Barkley, Coleman, Walker, J. Williams, Willis, H. Grant, Oakley, and Marshall)
31.5 mpg, 12.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 1.4 apg
SF--Toni Kukoc, 29, 6'10, 192 (behind Hill, G. Robinson, Rice, Abdur-Rahim, Van Horn, Garnett, Schrempf, Williamson, Finley, Howard, Murray, Rogers, R. Wallace, and Smith)
30.2 mpg, 13.6 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 4.2 apg
SG--Rex Chapman, 30, 6'4", 185 (behind Jordan, Richmond, Smith, Drexler, Houston, Miller, Kittles, E. Jones, Christie, Allen, Rider, Hornacek, W. Person, and Anderson)
33.3 mpg, 16.0 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 1.0 apg
PG--Brevin Knight, 22, 5'10", 173 (behind Payton, Hardaway, Iverson, Stockton, Cassell, Strickland, Marbury, Kidd, Brandon, Blaylock, K. Anderson, Jackson, Wesley, and Stoudamire)
31.0 mpg, 9.2 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 8.2 apg

Notes: I was kind of surprised at the strength of this team until I looked closer and thought about it. Brevin Knight led the league in steals...which doesn't really change the fact that he was not a good defender (especially as a rookie). Same with Kukoc...he won another ring this year, but Phil let pretty much everyone know what he thought of Tony's defense and intensity levels. Brian Grant was good and this is one of his better years...this is the era of the PF. But then there's Shawn Bradley and Rex Chapman. Ouch. Other than Brian Grant, this team is pretty helpless on D...and you're relying on Rex Chapman for your main scoring punch. Hmmm.

[TrueLAfan]

Average starters--2003. 29 team league.

C--Greg Ostertag, 29, 7'2", 280 (behind S. O'Neal, B. Miller, Magloire, Ilgauskas, Yao, A. Davis, Thomas, Ratliff, Wright, Nesterovic, Divac, D. Robinson, Dampier, and Battie)
23.8 mpg, 5.6 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 0.7 apg
PF--Amare Stoudemire, 20, 6'10", 245 (behind Garnett, J. O'Neal. Nowitzki, Webber, Brand, Abdur-Rahim, Grant, Gasol, Wallace, Brown, Murphy, Howard, Martin, and Marshall)
31.3 mpg, 13.9 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 1.0 apg
SF--Corey Maggette, 23, 6'6", 218 (behind Pierce, Jamison, Marion, Mashburn, Rose, G. Robinson, Stojakovic, Jefferson, Finley, Jordan, Harpring, Miller, Szerzbiack, and Artest)
31.3 mpg, 17.3 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 1.9 apg
SG--Penny Hardaway, 31, 6'7", 195 (behind Bryant, McGrady, Iverson, Allen, Houston, Hamilton, Stackhouse, Mobley, R. Davis, Richardson, Anderson, Wesley, Kittles, and R. Miller)
30.7 mpg, 10.9 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 4.1 apg
PG--Alvin Williams, 28, 6'5", 185 (behind Kidd, Nash, Davis, Arenas, Billups, Stockton,. Francis, Terry, Marbury, A. Miller, Cassell, Parker, Bibby, and Snow)
33.8 mpg, 13.6 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 5.3 apg

Notes: In general, a big, stupid team. Remember...this is Amare in his rookie year, when he was raw and was (literally) half the offensive force he would later become. This is a huge frontcourt that has hands of stone and doesn't defend well. I was surprised that Penny came in as the SG...but the well was starting to run dry...it was Penny or Reggie in his farewell tour. Reggie was less shot. Corey Maggette is better on paper than he is on the court; he wasn't as good this season as he is now, and he's OK at best now. The "star" of this team is probably Alvin Williams...before his knees got bad, he was a solid PG. There's good depth at PG. But the C...the horror! Just think of this: Greg Ostertag is the average starting C because Tony Battie is above average.

Average starters--2008. 30 team league.

C--Antonio McDyess, 33, 6'9", 220 (behind Howard, Ming, O'Neal, Miller, Kaman, Gasol, A. Jefferson, Biedrins, Camby, Ilgauskas, Dalembert, Horford, Chandler, and Bogut)
29.3 mpg, 8.8 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 1.5 apg
PF--Troy Murphy, 27, 6'11", 245 (behind Garnett, Nowitzki, Bosh, Boozer, Gasol, Odom, Lewis, Randolph, Jamison, West, Marion, Harrington, Aldridge, R. Wallace, and Okafor)
28.1 mpg, 12.2 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 2.2 apg
SF--Grant Hill, 35, 6'8", 225 (behind James, Deng, Anthony, Butler, Pierce, Iguodala, Howard, R. Jefferson, Gay, Turkoglu, Granger, Kirilenko, Smith, and Prince)
31.7 mpg, 13.2 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 2.9 apg
SG--Mike Miller, 27, 6'8", 218 (behind Bryant, Iverson, Wade, Martin, Carter, Allen, Richardson, Ellis, Hamilton, Durant, Roy, J. Johnson, Redd, and Dunleavy Jr.)
35.3 mpg, 16.4 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 3.4 apg
PG--Jameer Nelson, 6'0", 190 (behind Paul, D. Williams, Nash, Davis, Billups, Parker, Kidd, Felton, Harris, Hinrich, A. Miller, M. Williams, Calderon, Watson, and Crawford)
28.4 mpg, 10.9 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 5.6 apg

Notes: Ming and Wade got lucky and slid in by playing more than 50 games. I thought seriously about putting Corey Maggette on as the SF...but the 3M SG/SF/PF combo of Miller/Maggette/Murphy would have a basketball IQ of about 150. Combined. Grant Hill is a smarter, better defending player. (Sub in Corey if you want; his number overstate his value--there's great depth still at SF.) I was pleasantly surprised by the increased depth at C. This is actually an okay team...probably not far from .500. A ..500 team made up of average starters...whoulda thunk it?

[TrueLAfan]

If I were ranking the teams, I'd probably say

1973
1978
1988
2008
1963
1968
1993
2003
1983
1998

which surprises me. My favorite period of basketball is the 80s, and the 1983 team is not very good. I also thought the 70s would have the weakest teams, especially in years when the ABA was around. But the 1973 team is really great; I think the two 70s teams are clearly the best teams on here.

But it's all subjective. What jumps out the most to me is that the general quality of players is pretty uniform. There are periods when a position was deep; the depth at C in the late 60s and 70s is truly awesome, for instance. Player sizes are also pretty uniform; older teams/players don't appear to be appreciably smaller or larger.

It's been an interesting exercise, and I'm glad I did it.

[sp6r=underrated]

If I were ranking the teams, I'd probably say

1973
1978
1988
2008
1963
1968
1993
2003
1983
1998

which surprises me. My favorite period of basketball is the 80s, and the 1983 team is not very good. I also thought the 70s would have the weakest teams, especially in years when the ABA was around. But the 1973 team is really great; I think the two 70s teams are clearly the best teams on here.

But it's all subjective. What jumps out the most to me is that the general quality of players is pretty uniform. There are periods when a position was deep; the depth at C in the late 60s and 70s is truly awesome, for instance. Player sizes are also pretty uniform; older teams/players don't appear to be appreciably smaller or larger.

It's been an interesting exercise, and I'm glad I did it.

Excellent work TrueLaFan. This is evidence for something I suspected, that the differences between eras really is quite small. Also good call on the positions having more variance.

[kooldude]

What do you think of the SG competition between Jordan's era and Kobe's era? It's quite apparent that the C position was superior in Jordan's time with Hakeem, Drob, Ewing, Shaq, etc and probably PFs too, Barkley, McHale, Mailman opposed to KG, Dirk, etc.

[TrueLAfan]

I think the C position is probably better now than it was for most of Jordan's career. We've picked up good young Cs in the last 4-6 years. Sure, there were a lot of great C's in the top 4-5 Cs in the late 80s and early 90s. But when you starting getting to the 25th-50th percentile of Cs during Jordan's years--especially from about 1990 on-- the quality dries up pretty fast. I mean...Sean Rooks? Stanley Roberts? Shawn Bradley? Ike Austin? I'd take McDyess or Bogut or Horford over any of those guys, no question. But C was really lousy in the early 2000s too. The late 1990s was the era of the PF; that lasted until the first years of the 2000s, IMO. And the SG strength does seem a little weaker in the 80s and early 90s.

[NetsForce]

TrueLAfan you are a beast.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Great posts and interesting research. A point in defense of Threatt -- when the Lakers got him, it was to be a third guard behind Magic and Byron Scott. As a third guard, he would have been a perfect fit. But, that was the year when Magic tested HIV-positive and retired. Instead of being a 24-minute a night combo guard reserve, Threatt became a full-time PG who was trying to replace Magic. In that role, he definitely was not a perfect fit. But it was the best the Lakers could do at the time.

[penbeast0]

TrueLAfan you are a beast.

I'll take that as a compliment.

Great fun thread! Thanks for putting in the great work. I will try to add an ABA version of the 73 team later unless someone beats me to it.

[penbeast0]

1973 ABA "average starters" 10 teams so giving the 5/6 guys

C top 4: Artis Gilmore, Bill Paultz, Mel Daniels, Dave Robisch
--Randy Denton 6'11 260 a mediocrity having a good year
--Zelmo Beaty 6'10 245 16/10/1 former NBA All-Star with Bill Laimbeer type game (outside shot, dirty play)

PF top 4: Julius Erving, Billy Cunningham, George McGinnis, Dan Issel
a pretty impressive top 4! (Erving and Cunningham started as PFs)
--Byron Beck 6'10 245 longtime Denver F/C, unathletic smart banger
--Rich "House" Jones 6'7 240, widebody scorer

SF top 4: Ralph Simpson, Willie Wise, Joe Caldwell, George Carter
-- Roger Brown 6-6 220 flashy scorer from Indiana slowing down
-- George Irvine 6-7 215 pure jump shooter

SG top 4: Warren Jabali, Ron Boone, Johnny Neumann, Ted McClain
-- Brian Taylor 6-3 195 made NBA All-Defense teams after merger
-- Rick Mount 6-4 185 super college scorer, just a jump shooter as pro

PG top 4: Mack Calvin,George Thompson,Chuck Williams,Jimmy Jones
-- Freddy Lewis 6-1 185 another Indiana mainstay now slowing down
-- Louis Dampier 6-1 170 all-time ABA 3 point leader

The top Cs and PFs are pretty impressive with the wide open play leading to 3-4's like Erving and Cunningham playing PF but it drops off fast at the #5 spot except for Beaty. Wings are surprisingly weak (Gervin didn't play enough games) and the PGs are mainly shoot first types though Lewis and Dampier were good enough to start in NBA if league had 3 point rule to open things up for smaller guards.

Not sure what this adds but what the heck.

[richboy]

I like the work. I always kind of wondered what would be considered average any given year and this gives a good indication.

Now just because your an average NBA starter doesn't mean to me that you deserve to start then. I would say there are some backups better than some of those NBA average starters.

Good job though. I would have liked to see perhaps a few guys that ou put in as average than the 1. Still its very good.

[Sedale Threatt]

I thought I was pretty good, myself.

Seriously, nice stuff. I'm going to take some time once I get home from work to really digest this.

[TrueLAfan]

Nice pulls for the ABA, penbeast! And a team of Beaty/Beck/Brown/Taylor/Dampier would be pretty damn good, IMO. I'm surprised at the depth of both leagues in the 70s...it's a period when I always figured basektball to be lousy. Maybe it was...I'm a big believer that stylistic changes matter a lot more than supposed changes in height, athleticism, etc. But, all in all, I can't help but think that the differences between eras are pretty small.

[KNICKS1970]

As far as the players and talent goes, I agree, I don't think the league is much better or worse than it was 40 years ago. There are great players who would've been great in any era.

Culture-wise, today's NBA is vastly different than it was even in the 90s, and it's almost like being on a different planet than the 60s and 70s. I think you have to factor that in too.

[mojomarc]

I'm surprised at the depth of both leagues in the 70s...it's a period when I always figured basektball to be lousy. Maybe it was...I'm a big believer that stylistic changes matter a lot more than supposed changes in height, athleticism, etc. But, all in all, I can't help but think that the differences between eras are pretty small.

First, great work!

Second, it's always funny that people assume basketball was bad in teh 70s. This seems to be the common player comparison board theme--players were smaller, they didn't play defense, etc. But the thing that people miss is the 70s were also the very fattest part of the population bell curve caused by the baby boom.

Think of it this way--the first "boomers" were born in 1946, making them 30 years old in the middle of the decade. That means the earliest years of the baby boom were literally in their prime for the 1973 team and, even though the first two years of the boom were getting past their prime by 1978 you were still in the heart of the first boom. By 1983, however, the sweet spot of the population pyramid was a bit smaller because of the three years of the Korean War, so you had less of a population base from which to draw your elite athletes. The earlier boomers (such as Julius Erving and Artis Gilmore) were still around and productive, but you can see the decline. By 1988, your pool of young athletes shrunk as the US was in the trough of the population pyramid, which unfortunately also corresponded with the start of expansion in the NBA, further diluting the talent level, but because the last bulge of the baby boom was passing through their prime the talent level was still very good. But the league wasn't replenishing itself well with young talent right as the expansion was happening. This is why I never regarded the Bulls' dynasty as high ly as most--they were competing against what amounted to an ebb in talent as the league both expanded and aged. The influx of foreign talent didn't really start until the end of the decade and really got going with the turn of the millenium to help make up for the trough, which corresponds to the uptick you describe when ranking your teams.

To me, this has always been very intuitive as I have demography training. Still, we're talking relatively marginal differences at the high end of the tail of the population curve, which means even the worst "average" team isn't all that bad compared to the best. Still, the odds of a given population of producing a high quality NBA player are pretty darned low, so having another million babies produced in a given year compared to the next means maybe 5-10 more quality players enter the league 20-22 years later than would have in the other year, and that tends to show up in surveys such as yours.

[penbeast0]

Two issues in the 70s. It was the era of expansion (end of 60s through end of ABA) and there were a lot more bad teams in the leagues. Combine that with the ABA and it is intuitive that there are a LOT more marginal players than in the 8-10 team early to mid 60s for example.

The stats aren't that bad even for the bad teams because there is enough talent out there that players will step up and post big numbers because even the bad teams are still getting over 90% of the individual numbers of the good teams (Hi Bob Rule).

Finally, there weren't any dynastic teams in the NBA that compare to the great 50s/80s Lakers, 60s/80s Celtics, 90s Bulls, etc. Even the contenders seemed to change more. Teams seemed to make a one or two year run at the top rather than 5-8 (11 for Bill Russell) years of excellence. This was less true in the ABA but people discount those teams because of the weaker league.