Top 20 Players Ever, 2008 Playoffs Edition

[shawngoat23]

My list, divided into tiers. I won't justify my picks because they're pretty much close to consensus.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

4. Larry Bird
5. Magic Johnson
6. Bill Russell

7. Jerry West
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Shaquille O'Neal
11. Julius Erving

12. Elgin Baylor
13. John Havlicek
14. Moses Malone
15. Rick Barry
16. David Robinson
17. Karl Malone
18. Walt Frazier
19. Kobe Bryant
20. Charles Barkley

Edit: not sure what to make of Bob Pettit or George Mikan.

[Doctor MJ]

7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Tim Duncan
10. Oscar Robertson
11. Jerry West

Too many people with this kind of order.
When did Oscar and Jerry get demoted? And why?

I'm generally agreeing with you on this stuff wiggles, but I've got those three big men over those two little guys.

This doesn't seem like it should be so strange. Big men are generally more valuable, and these three big men led teams to titles, and the little guys did not.

[penbeast0]

My list, divided into tiers. I won't justify my picks because they're pretty much close to consensus.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

4. Larry Bird
5. Magic Johnson
6. Bill Russell

7. Jerry West
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Shaquille O'Neal
11. Julius Erving

12. Elgin Baylor
13. John Havlicek
14. Moses Malone
15. Rick Barry
16. David Robinson
17. Karl Malone
18. Walt Frazier
19. Kobe Bryant
20. Charles Barkley

Edit: not sure what to make of Bob Pettit or George Mikan.

Mikan yes, he played in the pre 24 second clock and retired before making the transition. Pettit played into the 60s and was playing against Baylor in Baylor's top 5 years (the first four of which were also part of Pettit's 10 year consistent peak).

Pettit was the more consistent day in and day out, much the better rebounder, drew more fouls and was healthier. Baylor was the jawdroppingly unique player, better FG% (though the fouls more than balance that out), had much better handles. Both were solid but not spectacular defensively and were 1st team All-NBA 10 straight years.

Basically Pettit was a Karl Malone type while Baylor was the Charles Barkley. Hard for me to put Baylor ahead of Pettit in a rating.

[KNICKS1970]

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I'm generally agreeing with you on this stuff wiggles, but I've got those three big men over those two little guys.

This doesn't seem like it should be so strange. Big men are generally more valuable, and these three big men led teams to titles, and the little guys did not.

I have Shaq and Duncan over West and Oscar, Hakeem right behind. Wilt won the Finals MVP in 1972, but West was the best player and the leader of those early 70s Lakers teams. Hakeem over Oscar might be a legit argument, but Oscar put up some monster stats which makes me inclined to rank him ahead.

I think there is some revisionist history when it comes to Hakeem though. There's this thinking that he was always the 2nd best player in the league throughout the 90s. But it was Charles Barkley, who was the 2nd or 3rd best player (Magic being his primary competition, Jordan being the clear cut #1) in the league from 1990-1993. From 1986 to 1993, Hakeem received a total of 1155 Total MVP votes. Barkley received 2025. And after Jordan's comeback, Karl Malone was #2.

Among the 6 MVP award winners of the 1990s (Jordan, Hakeem, Barkley, Robinson, Malone, Magic), here are the vote totals throughout the decade (starting with the 1989-1990 season and ending with the 1999 season)

Michael Jordan: 6094 (4 MVPs)
Karl Malone: 3917 (2 MVPs)
David Robinson: 3195 (1 MVP)
Hakeem Olajuwon: 2087 (1 MVP)
Magic Johnson: 1805 (1 MVP)
Charles Barkley: 1797 (1 MVP)

The Robinson vote surprised me a little, I knew that he had his votes but I didn't realize just how much. I'm moving him into the Top 20 ahead of Barkley.

[KNICKS1970]

My list, divided into tiers. I won't justify my picks because they're pretty much close to consensus.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

4. Larry Bird
5. Magic Johnson
6. Bill Russell

7. Jerry West
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Shaquille O'Neal
11. Julius Erving

12. Elgin Baylor
13. John Havlicek
14. Moses Malone
15. Rick Barry
16. David Robinson
17. Karl Malone
18. Walt Frazier
19. Kobe Bryant
20. Charles Barkley

Where's Tim Duncan?!?!?!

[G35]

I have Shaq and Duncan over West and Oscar, Hakeem right behind. Wilt won the Finals MVP in 1972, but West was the best player and the leader of those early 70s Lakers teams. Hakeem over Oscar might be a legit argument, but Oscar put up some monster stats which makes me inclined to rank him ahead.

I think there is some revisionist history when it comes to Hakeem though. There's this thinking that he was always the 2nd best player in the league throughout the 90s. But it was Charles Barkley, who was the 2nd or 3rd best player (Magic being his primary competition, Jordan being the clear cut #1) in the league from 1990-1993. From 1986 to 1993, Hakeem received a total of 1155 Total MVP votes. Barkley received 2025.

Among the 6 MVP award winners of the 1990s (Jordan, Hakeem, Barkley, Robinson, Malone, Magic), here are the vote totals throughout the decade (starting with the 1989-1990 season and ending with the 1999 season)

Michael Jordan: 6094 (4 MVPs)
Karl Malone: 3917 (2 MVPs)
David Robinson: 3195 (1 MVP)
Hakeem Olajuwon: 2087 (1 MVP)
Magic Johnson: 1805 (1 MVP)
Charles Barkley: 1797 (1 MVP)

The Robinson vote surprised me a little, I knew that he had his votes but I didn't realize just how much. I'm moving him into the Top 20 ahead of Barkley.

I don't know where you got those vote totals from but that is awesome stuff. That is pretty much how I remember it.

Jordan started to take over in the late 80's as the best individual player around 87-88. I remember many publications saying he would never win anything but scoring titles. Magic was seen as the ultimate winner team player and the player everyone would want to start their team.

Barkley was always a fan favorite he seemed to be #1 or 2 overall in the fan voting for the All Star game. He was so dominant in the 80's that he was clearly better than Karl Malone. It was in the mid 90's that Malone passed him. Pretty much after Charles' MVP season he declined imo.

David Robinson came into the league and just took over the C position. Hakeem was always seen as a good player but he never took the Rockets anywhere. Robinson was always clearly better. Then the Rockets won the title in 94 and that closed the gap. DRob won the MVP next year but Hakeem badly outplayed him in the playoffs and now everyone says Hakeem is so much better than DRob.


Good find KNICKS1970........

[KNICKS1970]

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I don't know where you got those vote totals from but that is awesome stuff. That is pretty much how I remember it.

Good find KNICKS1970........

Oops, I thought I included the link.

http://members.aol.com/apbrhist/nbamvps.html

And to your point about Robinson, he was definitely thought of as the better player until he got his ass kicked in 1995 and now everyone thinks that Hakeem throughly dominated him.

Here are the vote totals for Hakeem-Robinson from 1990-1993

Robinson: 948
Hakeem: 715

Vote totals from the 1994 and 1995 seasons

Robinson: 1631
Hakeem: 1036

And here's the vote totals from 1996-1999 for Hakeem and Robinson

Robinson: 616
Hakeem: 336

I would rank Hakeem ahead of him All-Time, because he lead his teams to two titles and Robinson played second banana to Tim Duncan in his two championships. But I definitely think everyone, myself included, has been underrating just how good the Admiral was. Hakeem outplayed Robinson in that classic fashion of that 1995 series, but Robinson's Spurs beat Hakeem's team 30-12 in the regular season. 30 to 12!! Even with the 1995 playoff series, Robinson's teams have a .695 winning percentage against Hakeem! Hakeem was not that much better than David Robinson. True, he severely outplayed him head to head in 1995. But Moses Malone severely outplayed Kareem in the 1983 Finals. And no one ranks Moses even close to Kareem.

And for all the "Hakeem destroyed all the centers of his era" talk, he only has a winning percentage against one: Patrick Ewing, and his teams only won 1 game more than Patrick.

Including Playoffs:

Hakeem over Ewing 18-17
Robinson over Hakeem 32-16
O'Neal over Hakeem 17-11

And I don't mean to act like I'm on a crusade against Hakeem. But there is definitely revisionist history when it comes to him. I really don't see how he ranks as the 7th best player of all time when he was arguably not even in the Top 3 for all but two seasons of the decade. Arguing that Hakeem is #7 is arguing that David Robinson is a Top 10 player.

[ice9]

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I don't know where you got those vote totals from but that is awesome stuff. That is pretty much how I remember it.

Good find KNICKS1970........

Oops, I thought I included the link.

http://members.aol.com/apbrhist/nbamvps.html

And to your point about Robinson, he was definitely thought of as the better player until he got his ass kicked in 1995 and now everyone thinks that Hakeem throughly dominated him.

Here are the vote totals for Hakeem-Robinson from 1990-1993

Robinson: 948
Hakeem: 715

Vote totals from the 1994 and 1995 seasons

Robinson: 1631
Hakeem: 1036

And here's the vote totals from 1996-1999 for Hakeem and Robinson

Robinson: 616
Hakeem: 336

I would rank Hakeem ahead of him All-Time, because he lead his teams to two titles and Robinson played second banana to Tim Duncan in his two championships. But I definitely think everyone, myself included, has been underrating just how good the Admiral was. Hakeem outplayed Robinson in that classic fashion of that 1995 series, but Robinson's Spurs beat Hakeem's team 30-12 in the regular season. 30 to 12!! Even with the 1995 playoff series, Robinson's teams have a .695 winning percentage against Hakeem! Hakeem was not that much better than David Robinson. True, he severely outplayed him head to head in 1995. But Moses Malone severely outplayed Kareem in the 1983 Finals. And no one ranks Moses even close to Kareem.

And for all the "Hakeem destroyed all the centers of his era" talk, he only has a winning percentage against one: Patrick Ewing, and his teams only won 1 game more than Patrick.

Including Playoffs:

Hakeem over Ewing 18-17
Robinson over Hakeem 32-16
O'Neal over Hakeem 17-11

And I don't mean to act like I'm on a crusade against Hakeem. But there is definitely revisionist history when it comes to him. I really don't see how he ranks as the 7th best player of all time when he was arguably not even in the Top 3 for all but two seasons of the decade. Arguing that Hakeem is #7 is arguing that David Robinson is a Top 10 player.

Excellent post, I agree whole heartedly. Hakeem should be ranked higher because he won as the main man, but saying he is clearly better than DRob is just revisionist history.

[shawngoat23]

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Where's Tim Duncan?!?!?!

Sorry, he belongs below Dr. J on my list, at the bottom of that tier. I acknowledge that Pettit was a great player, but I would have no idea where to rank him.

[Doctor MJ]

I have Shaq and Duncan over West and Oscar, Hakeem right behind. Wilt won the Finals MVP in 1972, but West was the best player and the leader of those early 70s Lakers teams. Hakeem over Oscar might be a legit argument, but Oscar put up some monster stats which makes me inclined to rank him ahead.

I think there is some revisionist history when it comes to Hakeem though. There's this thinking that he was always the 2nd best player in the league throughout the 90s. But it was Charles Barkley, who was the 2nd or 3rd best player (Magic being his primary competition, Jordan being the clear cut #1) in the league from 1990-1993. From 1986 to 1993, Hakeem received a total of 1155 Total MVP votes. Barkley received 2025. And after Jordan's comeback, Karl Malone was #2.

Among the 6 MVP award winners of the 1990s (Jordan, Hakeem, Barkley, Robinson, Malone, Magic), here are the vote totals throughout the decade (starting with the 1989-1990 season and ending with the 1999 season)

Michael Jordan: 6094 (4 MVPs)
Karl Malone: 3917 (2 MVPs)
David Robinson: 3195 (1 MVP)
Hakeem Olajuwon: 2087 (1 MVP)
Magic Johnson: 1805 (1 MVP)
Charles Barkley: 1797 (1 MVP)

The Robinson vote surprised me a little, I knew that he had his votes but I didn't realize just how much. I'm moving him into the Top 20 ahead of Barkley.

Good post.

While West was the star of those teams, but when they really broke through Wilt was leading the charge. Regardless, Hakeem vs West is a debate I could go either way on.

I've got Oscar as the last of this group. I have some major skepticism about how well his monster stats translated in to team benefit. Not enough skepticism that he doesn't belong in this debate, but some put him in GOAT discussion, and I think that's silly.

I agree that Robinson should be ahead of Barkley, though I think I'd put Barkley's peak ahead of Robinson's.

[KNICKS1970]

More interesting vote total stats. Take it for what it's worth, but I think it's a solid snapshot for who the greatest players were for each decade.

Of the MVP winners in the 60s (Chamberlain, Russell, Robertson) , the vote totals go this way:

Chamberlain - 1857 (4 MVPs)
Russell - 1515 (5 MVPs)
Robertson - 1058 (1 MVP)

Interestingly, Jerry West only had 244 total MVP votes during the 60s. Wilt, despite winning less MVPs than Russell, still managed to receive more MVP votes across the decade.

70s MVP Award winners

Abdul-Jabbar - 3224 (5 MVPs)
McAdoo - 1392 (1 MVP)
Cowens - 1223 (1 MVP)
Reed - 607 (1 MVP)
Walton - 125 (1 MVP)
Moses Malone - 112 (1 MVP)

Jerry West didn't win an MVP but still received 1016 MVP votes. Wilt received 417 votes. Oscar received no MVP votes this decade, which pretty much confirms that voters believed he was past his prime and was firmly the 2nd banana to Alcindor/Abdul-Jabbar. Jabbar towered over this decade like Jordan did in the 90s.

The 80s
Bird - 4236 (3 MVPs)
Magic - 3069 (2 MVPs)
Jordan - 1846 (1 MVP)
Moses - 1659 (2 MVPs)
Dr. J - 800 (1 MVP)
Abdul-Jabbar - 805 (1 MVP)

Bird, when he won his MVPs, completely dominated the voting. Magic won big in 1987, but won by less than 100 votes in 1989 and 1990. The 1990 vote is the closest ever, Magic beat Barkley by 22 votes and Jordan by 67 votes.

[TrueLAfan]

Vote totals aren't the way to compare MVP voting, since the numbers of voters and scaling of votes has changed (often) through the years. You're better off comparing vote shares and/or top 5 finishes.

West gets shafted if you go by decade...he finished second in MVP voting four times...but only one of those was in the sixties. Unlike Oscar, who was pretty much done as a top 5 player by 1969, West was elite well into the 1970s. In vote shares, Oscar has a slight total advantage. I still go with West. I think if people had voted after the playoffs, West would have clearly moved ahead.

[Doctor MJ]

Vote totals aren't the way to compare MVP voting, since the numbers of voters and scaling of votes has changed (often) through the years. You're better off comparing vote shares and/or top 5 finishes.

West gets shafted if you go by decade...he finished second in MVP voting four times...but only one of those was in the sixties. Unlike Oscar, who was pretty much done as a top 5 player by 1969, West was elite well into the 1970s. In vote shares, Oscar has a slight total advantage. I still go with West. I think if people had voted after the playoffs, West would have clearly moved ahead.

Did b-r.com take down there award share leader board? I can't find it any more.

[ronnymac2]

ok truelafan. thanx for the clarification of the criteria and explanation. as you can see by my list, i disagree with ur list, and still do. That area of the list is very difficult (well most of it is). And that description of jerry west descirbes a sick player lol