When did I sour on the Bucks and the Senator's Ownership...

[heynow]

Note: (I am venting here. Not meant to be a coherent initiation of a thread on the draft or what needs to be done to make the Bucks better. Just something I have held in for a while so that my anger at the Senator and his minions could be controlled. So those who think I am obsessing on ancient history save your time. I know that. For those with smart ass comments save them. I know I am lame.)


The day they traded Ray Allen.

How a franchise with the Bucks limitations and built in marketing problems could trade away one of the leagues better players and most marketable players based on an organizational whim did it for me.

At that point I knew Kohl and company were incompetent.
I knew Ray pretty well. He wanted to spend his whole career with one franchise. It is why he took less money to sign long-term with the Bucks. He made a commitment to the Senator and the franchise, and they screwed him.

He was a rarity. A superstar player who didn't consider Milwaukee too small a pond for him to flourish in.
A guy who had bought a home in the area and was trying to become a part of the community.

Now please do not make the same mistake with Bogut. Andrew I think is growing into one of the better centers in the NBA and he actually wants to be here. Now that we have professionals running the team I doubt history will repeat itself.

[paulpressey25]

It was a dumb trade.....

But Kohl would point out to you the following:

a) Because Kohl let Ernie G. and George Karl run the player personel moves then, the team was in a terrible luxury tax situation and had to shed a max contract that year or else they would face possibly $20 to $30mm in related costs/losses the next year. They needed to dump Tim Thomas and his salary, but I don't think anyone would take it. They also had Karl/Grunfeld decisions like Anthony Mason and Jason Caffey taking up $13mm of cap room.

b) Kohl gave those guys the GM power, and Karl felt that Gary Payton had something left in the tank. He didn't. Thus the trade was a disaster.

Kohl getting burned on the Ray trade was precisely why he's played full-time GM here the last five years.

[heynow]

It was a dumb trade.....

But Kohl would point out to you the following:

a) Because Kohl let Ernie G. and George Karl run the player personel moves then, the team was in a terrible luxury tax situation and had to shed a max contract that year or else they would face possibly $20 to $30mm in related costs/losses the next year. They needed to dump Tim Thomas and his salary, but I don't think anyone would take it. They also had Karl/Grunfeld decisions like Anthony Mason and Jason Caffey taking up $13mm of cap room.

b) Kohl gave those guys the GM power, and Karl felt that Gary Payton had something left in the tank. He didn't. Thus the trade was a disaster.

Kohl getting burned on the Ray trade was precisely why he's played full-time GM here the last five years.

I agree and my rant sort of contridicts my concern that Kohl meddled to much. He was the one who negotiated the long term deal with Ray. Ray and him actually met one on one (remember Ray didn't have an agent at the time) like men. Commitments were made. Hand shakes and promises were made. I don't want to sound silly but Ray was suppose to have been protected from a guy like Karl who is impulsive.
Kohl signed off on this for financial reasons and nothing more. Of course Karl wanted to trade Ray. He wanted to trade him for his favorite "washed-up" malcontent the day he was hired in Milwaukee. Ray rubbed him the wrong way.

Karl taunted the guy in practice and called him names like Pretty Boy and Sweetness ...

[paulpressey25]

I don't think anyone would deny Kohl the right to be brought in on a major deal......the problem has been his judgement in picking the wrong ones....

You veto the Ray Allen trade.....you don't veto the Magloire/Mo for Boozer/Brewer trade....

But that said, it isn't easy.....I supported the Payton trade when made. I just didn't realize how little GP had in the tank.

[Johnny Newman]

I miss the big 3 still. Wish we dealt TT first for a real pf.

[TheTrivium]

I don't think anyone would deny Kohl the right to be brought in on a major deal......the problem has been his judgement in picking the wrong ones....

You veto the Ray Allen trade.....you don't veto the Magloire/Mo for Boozer/Brewer trade....

But that said, it isn't easy.....I supported the Payton trade when made. I just didn't realize how little GP had in the tank.

WTF!!! Your saying, that was a trade, we could a made but it was vetoed!!!!

[Andrew34r]

I really hope Ray finishes his career here. I know he is not a free agent until 2010/2011 but I think it would be cool if he signed a 1 or 2 year deal with the Bucks and retired a Buck. I know he still cares a lot about the team and the city so I think it would be fitting. I also am pulling for Boston in the playoffs a little bit in hopes that he gets a ring.

[step3profit]

I'm not going to claim Ray, Murray, and a #1 for Payton and Mason was a good deal - just to get that out of the way up front.

But am I the only guy who thought Ray was dogging it for his last 2 years here? I like the guy, but I don't particularly miss him.

- He no longer would drive to the basket - personally I thought his knees were shot, until he proved that wrong by starting to do it elsewhere.
- Consequently, he no longer dunked or got many free throws - and with his percentage, he should have been getting as many as possible.
- He didn't really play defense.
- In short, he was a slightly-better-passing Michael Redd who didn't drive the basket as much as Redd has in the last 2 years.

Marketable - yes. A beloved son of Milwaukee - yes. Good enough to be the best player on a very good team - no.

The trade that sent him away was not a good trade, but frankly, until you have a superstar to build around, it doesn't really matter all that much anyway.

At least Murray didn't turn out to be as good of a player as it looked like he was right after the trade - I remember him putting about 5 20+ point games up with the Sonics the beginning of the next year.

Anyone remember who that traded pick became?

I certainly agree with the "keep Bogut" sentiment though - I've had times when I was frustrated with him, and I'd rather have Paul or Williams, but he's still a damn good center and his improvement seems continuous. He's fairly healthy, and let's face it- the only legitimate centers the Bucks have had since Jabbar were guys who came here when they were 35 or so. It's nice to have that position just filled, no worries for a decade or so.

[Andrew34r]

Anyone remember who that traded pick became?

I think it was T.J. Ford?

[paulpressey25]

I agree with what Bplus is saying....Ray was dogging it....

The player that Seattle got with our #1 (pick number 14) was Luke Ridnour.

[step3profit]

Anyone remember who that traded pick became?

I think it was T.J. Ford?

TJ was, I believe, part of the Glenn Robinson for Kukoc trade - which at the time I thought was a bad trade, but in retrospect, was one of the only trades in the last decade I think the Bucks ended up a net-positive on. But I'm a pretty big Kukoc fan - my favorite play since the 2001 season would have to be Kukoc to Bogut for the win vs. the Spurs in Bogut's rookie season.

[step3profit]

I agree with what Bplus is saying....Ray was dogging it....

The player that Seattle got with our #1 (pick number 14) was Luke Ridnour.

At least that pick won't haunt us for the next 10 years.

[Andrew34r]

I agree with what Bplus is saying....Ray was dogging it....
The player that Seattle got with our #1 (pick number 14) was Luke Ridnour.

I dont think he was dogging it I just think that George Karl was not a very good coach for him and things were getting bad on that end. George Karl said himself that he felt Ray was not a guy that he could coach very well and felt that he would play better under a different coach. Combine that with Cassell not passing Ray the ball enough and things were going downhill.

When he went to Seattle and started putting up better numbers it was largely due to the fact that they increased his minutes...made him the go to guy on offense and also the younger players looked up to him and viewed him as the leader of that team even with Rashard Lewis being on the team.