If both played to their potential...

[ILikeTheGrizz]

I guess I pick Carter but what's the point? If Shaq met his potential maybe he'd be better than Chamberlain and Jordan but he didn't and he wasn't. If Carter can't reach his potential he might as well not have it.

[etopn23]

Vince Carter ranks up there with Shaq and T-Mac in terms of wasting God given ability.

Yep, getting injured means he wasted his ability right.

[Silk Wilkes]

I guess I pick Carter but what's the point? If Shaq met his potential maybe he'd be better than Chamberlain and Jordan but he didn't and he wasn't. If Carter can't reach his potential he might as well not have it.

I'll still take his rings.

[Harry Palmer]

I guess I pick Carter but what's the point?

For the purposes of this board? Discussion, I guess.

For the purposes of the NBA? I'd suppose the fact that he can lazy his way to 15th all time on the scoring list, or thereabouts?

[ILikeTheGrizz]

I'll still take his rings.

Over Jordan's? Take his rings, it doesn't change that he wasn't as good as either of them (Jordan or Chamberlain) and could've been.

For the purposes of this board? Discussion, I guess.

I suppose, it just seems to be more speculative than virtually any other topic outside of "What If Michael Vick Played Basketball?" or "If Fat Lever Was 6'10..."

For the purposes of the NBA? I'd suppose the fact that he can lazy his way to 15th all time on the scoring list, or thereabouts?

That's a good reason to pick him over John Starks or Richard Dumas, not so much Kobe Bryant.

[Harry Palmer]

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That's a good reason to pick him over John Starks or Richard Dumas, not so much Kobe Bryant.

What?

Not in this context it's not?

This discussion was premised on a specific construct, namely which one, if maximized, would have been better. As such the degree to which the player who didn't come anywhere near maximizing his potential achieved fairly remarkable things is certainly relevant when contrasted with the achievements of the person considered to be much closer to getting all he can get out of his talent.

[ILikeTheGrizz]

And it's an exercise in entirely unsubstantiated and completely speculative what ifs. Like, it's not even like "What if Amare wasn't suspended a game" where people can knowledgably weigh in and talk somewhat realistically. It's just "What if I was 8 feet tall?" in which I can say basically anything and who can refute it?

What if Bill Parcells was hispanic and athletic and 40-odd years younger and played at Seton Hall and led the league in scoring and rebounding would he be picked ahead of Dwight Howard if Howard were in this draft? What about Tyson Chandler, knowing only what we knew when he came out? GO!

...Or, put more succintly, what's the point?

[Harry Palmer]

And it's an exercise in entirely unsubstantiated and completely speculative what ifs.

Welcome to the Player Comparison Board?

[TMACFORMVP]

It's Carter IMO, he's arguably the most talented player to have ever played. His athleticism, ability to shoot from distance, body control and just god given natural ability is matched by only few.

With his athleticism and first step, he should generally be a guy that gets to the line 10+ times (converts on over 80%) and an All-NBA defender on the other end in both weakside (blocks, rebounds, steals) and man to man. Then considering his unlimited range and underrated court vision/passing ability he'd be virtually unstoppable player when playing up to his potential.

He gets hated too much for the player he is now since he's still pretty damn good but it's understandable because he could have been one of the all time greats.

[ILikeTheGrizz]

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Welcome to the Player Comparison Board?

I think this is a little worse than Kobe vs. Dirk or Derrick Coleman vs. Rasheed, or top 25 PGs, etc. I mean, to play to your potential you have to have a strong mental game. The mental part is like half the battle in the NBA, I'm sure there's alot of guys out there who are like Felipe Lopez or Ronnie Fields or something. The mentality is like half of what sets many NBA players apart.

To me, this thread is basically saying "Change a huge and intregal part of who Vince Carter is- change his very person- and then how would he do?" That's insane. Again, what if Mugsy Bogues was 9'2 or Frank Sinatra was a basketball player and time traveled to the present in his prime what would he average? It's silly.

And much, much sillier than most of the rest of this board.

Who cares?

[Reks]

haha I knew this would be about vince in some way...
I pick vince, too bad he never reached his potential

[ClubLakers KB8]

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Yep, getting injured means he wasted his ability right.

Even when he wasn't injured he still never lived up to his full potential. His size, speed, ability to defend (he was a beast in Toronto), scoring ability, and everything else was top-tier. Healthy he's a waste of talent. Still a hell of a player though.

[richboy]

Sure, he didn't move like the Young Bull, not as fast as that, but his first step was comparable and he still had excellent lateral quickness to go with incredible leaping ability. And yes, prime Vince was at least comparable to Wade.

I don't think so. I don't think Vince first step was compariable to young MJ or even Wade. Shaq called Wade flash for a reason. I've never seen Vince showcase the kind of footspeed that Dwade has done. Wade literally does the same thing over and over again and everyone knows what he does but can't stop it because he so quick.

No, see, ball-handling isn't always about fancy skills, that's the big mistake everyone makes. Ball-handling is more about confidence in your control over the ball within a few select maneuvers. Ball-handling as a scorer is more about command while you make simple moves quickly and decisively than anything else. You don't actually see nasty crossovers from guys 6'6+ all that often because it's simply not that relevant for them to employ that type of skill in an NBA game.

Yes there is true to what you say. Thats not the big issue i have with Vince however. Young Kobe especially, Lebron, Wade, young MJ had the ability to translate there athletic gifts to basketball without loosing much within the dribble. IMO Vince carter looses athletism within the dribble. He still good and can get past many men. I've never felt was unguardable or could go right to the front of the rim any time that he wanted. I know you feel he has had that ability. I've seen lots of Vince and never felt that way. Not like Lebron, Wade, Iverson,young MJ, or younger Kobe. They have the ball on a string.They can move with the dribble just like they do without the dribble.

But even watching these guys, they don't do appreciably more than a young Vince did on a nightly basis. I watched T-Mac all through his time in Orlando and have continued to do so as he has played in Houston. I've watched Kobe and Wade their entire careers and entirely too much Iverson for my own health. AI NEEDS his handles (even his non-cheating handles) because he's a reasonably weak mid-range shooter even still and his height gives him all kinds of trouble.

The other guys use their size and their length and athleticism to get to the rim more often than anything more complex than a right-to-left or left-to-right crossover.

I was just about to say. I'm not even sure Vince is the most gifted guard in his family. To me McGrady has more claim to fame as perhaps the most physically gifted SG ever.

I would probably disagree with you on AI. Thats another story though.

True but we're discussing the realization of max potential, which implies the necessity of more testicular fortitude and a greater work ethic in Vince's case. Whether he is really capable of doing so is not relevant.

We have no clue how hard he working as it is. We have some implied statements on his work ethic. I also heard he was busy working on his game as soon as he signed his extention in NJ. This thread is like Vince just wakes up scores 25 points per game and then heads to the bars.

Not really; vertical leap translates to separation which translates to the extra space he needs and improves the potency of his fadeaway, as well as making a big difference in of what he is capable going to the basket on a drive.

Were talking Kobe Bryant here. I would agree if we was talking someone that can't get

The only physical gift that Vince has that I know Kobe would kill for is Vince hand size. If Kobe had Vince has size then he really be able to finish in traffic better.

Footwork is indeed extremely important and Kobe does indeed have advanced footwork but if we're talking about max potential, work ethic, physical toughness and skills kind of go by the wayside next to natural physical qualities, hence the nature of this discussion.

Well we can do this with just about any gifted physical player to ever play the game. Vince is a completely different player now. Just working hard doesn't automatically suggest that a player is going to become better than a less physically gifted player. Kevin Garnett is more gifted than Tim Duncan. Does it mean that KG hasn't worked hard since he isn't better than Duncan. Dang maybe if STromile Swift worked harder he be better than Duncan too.

This thread has overvalued Vince Carter's physical gifts. He is tremendously gifted but there more to being an athlete than jumping high. Vince is not more gifted than Lebron James, Dwight Howard, Michael Jordan, wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Shaq, David Robinson, Kobe Bryant, to name a few.

[Minge]

I don't understand this question. If both players played to their potential? What does this mean? What if Vince Carter had Kobe's work ethic and will to play on both ends, would he be better? I don't know. When I watch him play, he's completely disinterested on defense, and on offense, he settles for the three pointer far too much. If Kobe Bryant played do or die on the defensive end every possession of the basketball game, and his offensive game was on par with the "81 point" erruption? I don't know.

It's clear who the better player is, most of these are excuses.

[Duiz]

VC was going to be the next Michael Jordan, and he had the great talent to do it, but it goes to testify for the great work ethic of Kobe.

[richboy]

VC went 5 in the draft. If he was going to be the next Michael Jordan he would have went number 1. There was Jordan comparisons because of the North Carolina ties and playing the same position.

[HarlemHeat37]

Carter is one of my favorites, and I've learned to deal with his work ethic and injuries over time..he doesn't want to be THAT guy, and I've accepted it..he's pretty easily the most talented player in NBA history IMO(raw talent alone..didn't see the old timers play)..I've learned to accept him for what he is, and I appreciate the entertainment he has brought me..he's BY FAR the most entertaining player in NBA history, nobody even comes close to his level..

on the other had, it's not like he was Len Bias or something though..he's had a SOLID career so far, and he did show us flashes of what he can do..he was a #1 option for years, and he could still be a solid #2 option right now..he wasn't a bust..