Sometimes the truth hurts!

[wiff]

Well I started a thread about the Rockets when Yao went down.

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=766917

Some people felt it was in poor taste.

I'm still trying to figure out what part was insulting? I do know I was honest about my feelings of TMAC.

That guy is the most over rated player in the league. Is that in poor taste?

The guy has 1 point in 24 minutes of fourth quarter play.

He is shooting 37% from the field and a whooping 11% for 3 land.

22 wins in a row doesn't mean squat come play off time when the smoke and mirrors vanish like your superstar does in the 4th quarter.

Enjoy paying that 22mil for an oft injured disappearing act.

[BenjaminH]

That thread ridiculed Houston's misfortune, which was in bad taste. You're assessment was not far off though. No, being honest is not itself poor taste. If I recall, I pretty much agreed with your assessment. Now do you understand what was in poor taste? If not, we could try to explain it to you again, but I think you understand.

However, I will squabble with you a little bit on McGrady. He played brilliantly most of the game. You're right, his fourth quarter was not good, but he can only do so much. In my estimation, I think that McGrady did a much better job in that game than any of those second tier superstar swingmen would in his position (players like Wade, Iverson, Anthony, Joe Johnson, Iggy, Ray Allen, Marion or Pierce). The 22 win streak was incredible, especially because they sustained it after Yao went down. And what is even more impressive was that they stayed afloat the rest of the season after the streak. If you compare Houston's roster, player by player, to any other team in the league, the other team is likely far more talented. Indeed, I was very impressed that they stayed so close against Utah.

[OzThunder]

i thought it was a bit soon, and a bit agressive towards the houston fans. and i usually love your posts wiff. i agree that mcgrady is a bit over rated, and he hasn't been a superstar in the playoffs, but you can definately say that without yao they are still a playoff calibre team, and have done damn well. and it aint over yet

[OzThunder]

oh i didn't realise they lost both at home. maybe it is over...but still i would hardly call 23pt-13rb-9as-3st-2bl a 'choke' worthy game. really he's the only reason they were in the game.

[wiff]

That thread ridiculed Houston's misfortune, which was in bad taste.

What sentence exactly ridulculed Houston?

Personally I think most people get bent because the post was the next day. But where did I "ridicule"?

oh i didn't realise they lost both at home. maybe it is over...but still i would hardly call 23pt-13rb-9as-3st-2bl a 'choke' worthy game. really he's the only reason they were in the game.

But how many fourth quarter poins has he had in the last TWO games? 1pt.

Sorry I need more than 1pt from my "superstar" in the fourth quarter of the two playoff games combined.

[BenjaminH]

Well, the whole "crying" thing. I believe the title of the thread was something like, "Would you like to see Tracy McGrady cry?" or it may have had a picture of Yao crying. You were ridiculing Houston there. And I think later on, you just used generally derisive language. Yeah, I thought that was all in poor taste. But, as I've said, it wasn't that bad. I think that is why we're saying "poor taste" instead of "offensive".

As far as your assessment goes, I think you're right, McGrady and Yao are injury prone. It is unlikely that they will win a championship. (Though nobody expected them to win one this year, and certainly nobody expected them to make the playoffs -much less get home court- after Yao went down and McGrady being injured the entire middle of the season.) But I think you underrate McGrady and Yao when they are healthy.

[BBen]

I agreed with and defended you at the time and I concur now as well. Yao and TMac are both overrated. There's a reason TMac's teams have all been dismal failures in the playoffs. I don't know if he's ever been on the winning side of a series.

[Sweezo]

Meanwhile we have a piece of **** team that barely won 20 games.

[Dick Tate]

I wonder if they'll eventually be saying some of the same things about Durant in ten years if he has to play his career without having a legit post presense to play next to? I'm just not a fan of having a team centered around a high scoring wing. The Lakers became legit when they added Gasol.

[D5150]

wiff,

i called your original post on this in poor taste.

i call this one pointless.

why bring this up again man?

[BBen]

He's reiterating a point with evidence maybe? Did you read the whole post before you commented?

[D5150]

this whole post? yeah its one page, i read it.
i read the last post on this as well. i think it was covered then.

again, what is the point?

[wiff]

I wonder if they'll eventually be saying some of the same things about Durant in ten years if he has to play his career without having a legit post presense to play next to? I'm just not a fan of having a team centered around a high scoring wing. The Lakers became legit when they added Gasol.

You make a good point here Dick about Durant.

But Durant is still so young his game can morph in many different directions. Is Durant going to be a taller Reggie Miller? Maybe a player in the Danny Manning mold? A more offensive minded Keon Clark? Or is he going to bulk up to a Chris Bosh frame? Durant is a thin guy and he's only 19. I was a skinny kid growing up and I am still a thin guy and I'm 35. For myself I simply couldn't add weight. But I also couldn't afford a personal chef or a personal trainer.

However waiting for a guy to add weight can be worse than waiting for paint to dry. But if the day does come and Durant is about to add 30, 40 pounds or more he could go from the high scoring wing player to the dominate front court player. That is something T-Mac can't do

And D515 my point of this thread is that I need a lot more from a guy who is considered a superstar in the league and is making 21 mil this season and 23 mil next season and he has ONE freakin point in the fourth quarter of the two playoff games COMBINED.

So in 24 minutes of fourth quarters played he has 1 pt.

And this guy is considered a Superstar puuuuhhhleease.

Overrated! And yet again he is going to get bounced in the first round.

[D5150]

fair enough wiff. but i am reminded of an old saying:

what is understood doesn't need to be discussed.

[BenjaminH]

I think the more important point Dick is trying to make is that it is better to build around a post player than a wing player. Note that he also said that the Lakers had a poorly constructed roster before they had a post presence. And, yes, I think he is pretty much right. (There are, of course, exceptions, but building around a poster player is a safer bet.) In other words, people will likely call Durant overrated unless we find him a good post player to play with. I don't think it was really an insult to Durant. E.g. people thought Kobe Bryant was underachieving last season because he couldn't win without Shaq.

Wiff, I do not think that McGrady is considered a superstar. I think you're in the majority - most people put him at the second tier at best. So, I really do not understand what you're arguing against. (Also, I think we cleared up the 'poor-taste' issue and there is no reason to pursue it further now that you understand.)

I sympathize with the 'he's injury prone' motivation behind your view, but at the same time I think it understates how good he can still be. I explained this earlier. Again, I think he played brilliantly the first three quarters.

[BBen]

^^
The point is that he's getting paid like 2 superstars. Maybe 3.

[BenjaminH]

That is not the point. At least half of the players with superstar contracts underachieve. Besides, nobody expected McGrady to maintain superstar status towards the tail end of his contract. He was only expected to be a superstar his first two years or so in Houston. After that, he was still expected to be a fringe all star, which he more or less is ... but expectations have really declined with his being injury-prone.

That is why his play after Yao went down is so impressive. He was one of the best players in the league, just below MVP caliber. He does not deserve the MVP, he doesn't even really deserve to be in the conversation (top 5 or so). But I bet he will get some votes now. (I suspect almost everybody will vote for Kobe and Paul as 1 and 2, and possibly a few for James and Garnett. So, most ballots will have them as 1, 2 and 3. But I wouldn't be surprised if some of the ballots list McGrady as the number 3. I suspect he'll finish 5-10 in the balloting - ahead of many superstars.)

By the way, he made a very sarcastic response to Wiff in the Houston Chronicle on Wednesday (wiretap):

"It's my fault," McGrady said. "It's my fault we missed free throws. It's my fault we lost both games. Blame me. It's my fault we fouled to tie the game up. That's my fault. It's my fault they get easy layups. It's my fault we're not executing well on the offensive end. It's my fault a couple people in the stands ordered Heinekens and they got Budweiser. It's my fault. I'm sorry."

[wiff]

That is not the point. At least half of the players with superstar contracts underachieve. Besides, nobody expected McGrady to maintain superstar status towards the tail end of his contract. He was only expected to be a superstar his first two years or so in Houston. After that, he was still expected to be a fringe all star, which he more or less is ... but expectations have really declined with his being injury-prone.

What in the hell are you talking about Benji? And please find one published article that states the above sentiment. Because I'm calling BS on that.

T-WHACK isn't even 29 yet the guy is in the PRIME of his prime. Typically a "prime" is between the ages of 27 and 30 for a wing player. He will be 29 in a month. You can't get more PRIME than that baby.

[BenjaminH]

You thought that McGrady would be a superstar this season? I suspect you're being deceptive.

[BBen]

I tell you who thought he'd be a superstar: the Rockets organization. Otherwise they wouldn't have given him $18,257,750 for 2008 would they?