Game 2: Mavs @ Hornets

[your_dallas_mavericks]

i

[DDansby123]

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Yeah I know what you mean. George is just fine though, throw him out there and let's watch the hustle. Try it at least, that's all. Sitting back and watching Paul just play in his little comfort zone is just dumb. Nobody, no matter how crappy they are, lets Dirk just do his thing. They run around and wack him and push him and whatever, and it works, to a great extent. Why should we just let Paul dance around?

George, IMO, is the best option, and he's the only guy I'd really want to send chasing Paul around the court. And that's fine for him, because he doesn't expend much energy on the offensive end.

My problem with George, though, is that he's an offensive liability at a time when we need all the offense we can get.

[rudi21]

your_dallas_mavericks wrote:

I'm YDM, and if it's good or bad is up to you.

it was not my goal to intimitate or provoke you

often i

[JES12]

long live the democracy --- long shall live YDM

Yup, rudi21 & YDM are one in the same

[Teffer10]

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George, IMO, is the best option, and he's the only guy I'd really want to send chasing Paul around the court. And that's fine for him, because he doesn't expend much energy on the offensive end.

My problem with George, though, is that he's an offensive liability at a time when we need all the offense we can get.

This seems to be the story every year. Avery has to decide whether to put offense or defense on the floor. There is always a tremendous weakness on the floor with this team at all times.

[dirtyfilthynasty]

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This seems to be the story every year. Avery has to decide whether to put offense or defense on the floor. There is always a tremendous weakness on the floor with this team at all times.

I'm not trying to start anything but that is going to be the case with any team trying to build around Dirk.

[Teffer10]

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I'm not trying to start anything but that is going to be the case with any team trying to build around Dirk.

I'm beginning to agree. As much as I love what Dirk has done, he is only a #2 guy and we don't have the trade pieces to land a #1.
It might be time to take advantage of Dirk and Howard's current values in a rebuilding process.

Who or what would you consider trading Dirk for?

[Captain_Obvious]

What does this mean "Dirk is only a #2 guy"? on offense, defense, combined?

[studcrackers]

i wish avery wouldve tried a lineup of dirk/bass/damp on the floor at the same time b/c i think it'd be great for a team like NOH b/c david west could only guard one of dirk or bass and the other would have peja on them. and if you really want to get big put josh or devean (to defend paul) and kidd out there.

but he has no idea if it would work b/c he never tried it in the regular season

[your_dallas_mavericks]

long live the democracy --- long shall live YDM

Thanks for the props, but it's up to me to win everyone back over one poster at a time.

[DDansby123]

i wish avery wouldve tried a lineup of dirk/bass/damp on the floor at the same time b/c i think it'd be great for a team like NOH b/c david west could only guard one of dirk or bass and the other would have peja on them. and if you really want to get big put josh or devean (to defend paul) and kidd out there.

I'm beginning to wonder if Bass wouldn't better serve this team as our starting SF. I have some serious doubts about it, but there would be some positives as well: better rebounding, more offensive production than we get from our SGs, etc. I dunno. I'm just trying to figure out how to get the kid more PT.

[studcrackers]

he'd be better as an SF then the C i know that much, i love bass but hate when he and dirk are on the floor at the same time. i have problems with him being able to keep up with quick sf's but when you have a guy like peja or mopete who just stand around the perimeter waiting for paul to create how hard can it be?

[DDansby123]

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I'm not trying to start anything but that is going to be the case with any team trying to build around Dirk.

I agree with you in the sense that Dirk will always be a weakness for us defensively, because he's not strong enough to defend PFs and Cs and is too slow to defend anyone on the perimeter. But I don't know if his mere presence kills our chances of being an above-average/elite defensive team. It is, as you and I have agreed on many times, more difficult to build a team around Dirk because of that, though.

I was up for trading him a few years ago (not on the bandwagon, but up for it), and I'm in the same position now. I don't see a superstar out there to be had, but I still think a combination of picks and near-stars could be. That's the most logical option for dealing Dirk right now. And if we did it, we'd almost certainly have to build a Piston-like team that could win without a superstar. Don't know how feasible that is.

[sweet daddy]

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I'm not trying to start anything but that is going to be the case with any team trying to build around Dirk.

Too late! It's started!

Seriously, though, not every #1 option is a great defensive player. Not every Hall of Famer was a great defensive player. Bird was about average, maybe a little better. Smart coaches, and smart GMs, build around the skills of elite players. Bird had McHale, Parish, DJ, Ainge, and a good bench. That's what we need to do. Don't think of the cup as half empty with Dirk. Somebody in the front office needs to re-think how to build a team around him. He is what he is. Shaq can't hit a free throw, but you don't trade him because of it.

[dirtyfilthynasty]

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Too late! It's started!

Seriously, though, not every #1 option is a great defensive player. Not every Hall of Famer was a great defensive player. Bird was about average, maybe a little better. Smart coaches, and smart GMs, build around the skills of elite players. Bird had McHale, Parish, DJ, Ainge, and a good bench. That's what we need to do. Don't think of the cup as half empty with Dirk. Somebody in the front office needs to re-think how to build a team around him. He is what he is. Shaq can't hit a free throw, but you don't trade him because of it.

I don't think that is the only problem though. I have gone through years and years of denial but I am finally coming around to the fact that you have to have a skilled big man who can score in the post to win a championship. Besides Jordan's bulls, how many teams have won a championship without that post player? Dirk is getting better in the post but when the game slows down, all he does is wait for the double team to kick it to a jumpshooter which defeats the purpose. I would rather have Dirk take a contested 18 footer than Howard take an open three.

That means that Dirk will need a young Shaq like player who can play defense and works well in the post and that is incredibly difficult to find. It might be easier to start over and build from scratch.

P.S. I am in no way saying that this series is Dirk's fault. He is the only one who has shown up this series and the Mavs would be 1-1 if he had any sort of help.

[sweet daddy]

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I don't think that is the only problem though. I have gone through years and years of denial but I am finally coming around to the fact that you have to have a skilled big man who can score in the post to win a championship. Besides Jordan's bulls, how many teams have won a championship without that post player? Dirk is getting better in the post but when the game slows down, all he does is wait for the double team to kick it to a jumpshooter which defeats the purpose. I would rather have Dirk take a contested 18 footer than Howard take an open three.

That means that Dirk will need a young Shaq like player who can play defense and works well in the post and that is incredibly difficult to find. It might be easier to start over and build from scratch.

P.S. I am in no way saying that this series is Dirk's fault. He is the only one who has shown up this series and the Mavs would be 1-1 if he had any sort of help.

Pretty much agree with all your points. We know that Dirk is never going to be a beast down low, so if he's a focal point on your team, you need a complimentary low post scorer. How to get one and keep Dirk, I don't know. I just know that I still hate the thought of trading Dirk, because he creates such matchup problems, and he is no doubt a premier player in game right now. That's a valuable tool, if management would construct a team that best utilized it.

You know, everybody in the league concedes that Dirk is a matchup nightmare for opposing power forwards. I wonder, then, why his own team won't concede that a traditional power forward is a nightmare matchup for him, and get players around him that can help him out down low.

dfn, the bottom line for me is that I think we have a player who is worthy of building a team around in Dirk. If management can't figure out how to build around him, I'm not convinced that they could start over and do any better.

[dirtyfilthynasty]

dfn, the bottom line for me is that I think we have a player who is worthy of building a team around in Dirk. If management can't figure out how to build around him, I'm not convinced that they could start over and do any better.

I see your point but think about this. What if we were able to trade Josh Howard for Shawn Marion in the summer and also decided to trade Dirk? Don't you think Kidd and Shawn Marion are easier to build a team around than Dirk and pretty much any other player in the league.

[sweet daddy]

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I see your point but think about this. What if we were able to trade Josh Howard for Shawn Marion in the summer and also decided to trade Dirk? Don't you think Kidd and Shawn Marion are easier to build a team around than Dirk and pretty much any other player in the league.

Well, you hit my button there because I love Marion. Trade Howard for Marion, who vastly improves our rebounding and shot-blocking (good for Dirk if you decided to keep him. That's an upgrade by itself if you ask me). Then if you could trade Dirk for a young big man, and I mean a really good young big man, then maybe you've got something.

[DDansby123]

I'm not sold on the need for a low-post scorer (i.e., a typical, back-to-basket type guy). I am sold on the need for a championship team to score easy buckets: dunks, FTs, points in the paint, and even wide open 3s. To do that most consistently, you do need guys who play in the paint.

The tough part is that Dirk's a SF offensively and a PF/C defensively (depending on the matchup), so you've got to have a PF and C offensively and a SF and PF/C defensively to fill in around Dirk. That's a very tall order.

When building around Dirk, or maybe anyone in this league now, you've got have versatile players at as many positions as possible. Kidd and Bass are really the only guys I can think of who can guard multiple positions. Exchanging Howard for Marion would add one more to that mix (though both Marion and Bass would be considered, defensively, SF/PF types). And with Dirk as the PF, there's not much room for both in the starting lineup.

Now, if you dealt Howard for Marion, then dealt Dirk for a combination of players (preferably a SG and a PF/C), then you might have something.