More impressive, Jordan's scoring or Russell's rebounding?

[penbeast0]

People talk about Bill Russell not being dominant at anything other than winning and defense but his rebounding numbers are one of the most impressive stats of all time. They only suffer because he played with Wilt who is the greatest all-time stat stuffer of all time (including points up to the time he decided he wasn't going to score a lot any more). So excluding Wilt who is the other member of the top two in both PPG and RPG, you end up with the following lists:

PPG
Jordan 30.14
Iverson 27.73
Baylor 27.36
LeBron 27.34
West 27.03

RPG
Russell 22.45
Pettit 16.22
Lucas 15.61
Thurmond 15.00
Daniels 14.91

I use RPG rather than rebound rate because the top rebound rate list is full of mediocre part time players who played lesser minutes. RPG is full of all time greats although clearly tilted toward the 60s because of pace issues (anyone that has pace adjusted numbers on a spreadsheet, please go ahead). I am sure that it isn't quite as impressive if you discount for pace which I am not doing but look at the raw discrepancy . . . .

Jordan has a nice almost 10% lead over Iverson (again, not pace adjusted) but Russell over the number 2 guy not named Wilt all time has a lead of close to 40%!!! That is crazy domination. Jordan would have had to average more than 8 more points a game to get to that level of dominance. And . . . having the league's best rebounder correlates more strongly with winning than having the leagues best scorer.

Russell may be the most statistically dominant player in league history if you remove Wilt from the books.

[Duiz]

Mark Eaton's record on Blocks, Karl Malone's record on free throws, and John Stockton's record with Assists and Steals are pretty impressive too.

[Point forward]

As the resident Russell homer, you know my vote. The scary thing is that rebounding was not even his strongest asset, his low post defense was simply out of the ballpark.

Anyway, I think the GOAT stat line is Mark Eaton's bpg. 5.56 bpg?!??

[sp6r=underrated]

Do you have the rebound rate for Russell?

[penbeast0]

Stat site I use quit carrying it since rebound rate is calculated differently for older players (due to a change in the way team rebounds are calculated if I remember). They carry % of total rebounds but only back to 71-72 (probably a similar issue). Dennis Rodman and Sven Nater are the modern leaders in rebound %, the only 2 over the 20% mark.

[TrueLAfan]

I have Russell

[TrueLAfan]

Stat site I use quit carrying it since rebound rate is calculated differently for older players (due to a change in the way team rebounds are calculated if I remember). They carry % of total rebounds but only back to 71-72 (probably a similar issue). Dennis Rodman and Sven Nater are the modern leaders in rebound %, the only 2 over the 20% mark.

Yeah, that's because of me. I've been telling them to drop older rebound rates for a while. What they had was wrong, wrong, wrong.

Pretty much every stat site has wrong information for rebound rate prior to 1969. Some teams counted opponent rebounds, but sites use(d) the

[ponder276]

Jordan's scoring is EASILY more impressive. He is at worst the second best scorer of all time, and the best scorer of his era. Russell was not even the best rebounder of his era. His ridiculous rebound numbers are a product of the era - you will notice that Wilt averaged more rpg over his career, and also had a lower peak (Wilt had two 27rpg seasons, Russel's best season was 24.7rpg). If TrueLAfan is right about 3 to 6 players having a better rebounding rate than Russell, then it's not even close - Jordan's scoring is far more impressive.

[penbeast0]

Again, I am leaving Wilt out for a reason. If it is any help, Wilt's peak scoring seasons leave Jordan's in the shade by at least as much as his peak rebounding passes Russell, even when pace/era adjusted.


Just wanted people to realize that Russell isn't a guy with no stats in the GOAT contest. In addition to being generally considered the most dominant defensive plaeyr in history, he was one of the best rebounders as well and huge rebound totals are more correlated with winning than huge scoring totals.

Thanks True . . . someday I have to get a spreadsheet program set up for pace calculations rather than rely on Justin, you, Tsherkin, etc. but I'm too lazy.

[wigglestrue]

Jordan's scoring is EASILY more impressive. He is at worst the second best scorer of all time, and the best scorer of his era. Russell was not even the best rebounder of his era. His ridiculous rebound numbers are a product of the era - you will notice that Wilt averaged more rpg over his career, and also had a lower peak (Wilt had two 27rpg seasons, Russel's best season was 24.7rpg). If TrueLAfan is right about 3 to 6 players having a better rebounding rate than Russell, then it's not even close - Jordan's scoring is far more impressive.

Whoa, where do you get that conclusion? Also, if Wilt's career overlapped with Jordan's, Jordan would have been the 2nd best scorer of his era. That's the point of this thread, to remove Wilt from the question.

[JordansBulls]

Jordan was a better scorer than Wilt. First off he has a higher career ppg than Wilt. Next off he has a higher Playoff PPG than Wilt and 3rd off he has a higher Finals PPG than Wilt. In fact, Jordan is the only player in history to average 30+ ppg in the season and playoffs and even finals.

Here is a synopsis of it

ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS:
1st Place: MJ, 22 scoring records
2nd Place: Wilt, 18 scoring records
3rd Place: Moot

- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6 (min. 15 games)
- Highest single season scoring average: Wilt 50.4
- Highest single season playoff average: West 40.6
- Highest single series playoff average: West 46.3
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most Total Points Career: Kareem 38387
- Most Total Points Season: Wilt 4029
- Most Total Points Playoffs: MJ 5987
- Most Total Points Finals: West 1679
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most seasons leading league in total points: MJ 11
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ, Wilt tied at 7
- Most 60 point games: Wilt 32
- Most 50 point games: Wilt 118
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games: Wilt 271
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 38
- Most 30 point games: MJ 563
- Most consecutive 60 point games: Wilt 4
- Most consecutive 50 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 50 point games playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games: Wilt 14
- Most consecutive 40 point games rookie: AI 5
- Most consecutive 40 point games playoffs: West 6
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 35 point games: Wilt 33
- Most consecutive 30 point games: Wilt 65
- Most consecutive 30 point games playoffs: Elgin 11
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games: Wilt 126
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Most consecutive points in one game: Manu 24
- Most consecutive points in one game playoffs: LBJ 25
- Highest scoring game: Wilt 100
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Highest scoring game finals: Elgin 61
- Highest scoring game rookie: Wilt 58
- Highest scoring all-star game: Wilt 42
- Highest scoring all-rookie game: KB 31
- Most points in 3 quarters: Wilt 69
- Most points in one half: Wilt 59
- Most points one half playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 39
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Most points one half all-star game: Rice 24
- Most points in one quarter: Gervin 33
- Most points in one quarter playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 29
- Most points in one quarter finals: Isiah 25
- Most points in one quarter all-star game: Rice 20
- Most points in OT: Arenas 16
- Most points in OT playoffs: Drexler 13
- Most points in OT in finals: Havlicek, Laimbeer,
Ainge tied at 9
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40

So saying take Wilt out of the equation when he was behind Jordan anyway doesn't quite work.

[sp6r=underrated]

I've never seen you post that list before. LOL.

[penbeast0]

I took Wilt out of the question because his feats are so ridiculous they just dwarf the record book. Wilt is the greatest at pretty much everything he turned his hand too. Up until the 1966 season, he saw himself as a scorer and he averaged over 39 ppg during those 7 seasons. The only reason he dropped anywhere close to Jordan's level in scoring is that he chose to focus on rebouding and defense at the expense of scoring because his coach convinced him that was the only way to beat the unbeatable Celtics . . . to became more Bill Russell than Russell. It worked once and he took it to heart. Again, I don't know what 39 ppg converts to in terms of pace adjusted numbers. Playoffs are a bit less easily converted since they had less rounds/better early competition and Wilt generally faced off against Russell, the greatest defender in NBA history.

That said, the point is that Wilt was a ridiculous figure in terms of numbers. But, if you take him out of the equation, Russell's numbers are among the all-time greats as are MJ's.

[shawngoat23]

I'm a Jordan fan who never saw Russell, but I'd have to say the latter's rebounding feat seems more impressive.

[tha_rock220]

I've never seen you post that list before. LOL.

He needs a hobby and a hug.

[Doctor MJ]

Also, if Wilt's career overlapped with Jordan's, Jordan would have been the 2nd best scorer of his era.

Well I actually don't agree with that. The fact that Wilt's team success took a big leap forward when he stopped being a volume scorer is pretty telling to me. Probably not coincidentally, there's the problem with big men scorers that they are dependent on their teammates to work to get them the ball.

[Doctor MJ]

btw, to respond to the original point, I think Jordan's scoring is more impressive than Russell's rebounding, but I'm really not sure that it's more impressive than Russell's shotblocking.

[penbeast0]

-= original quote snipped =-



Well I actually don't agree with that. The fact that Wilt's team success took a big leap forward when he stopped being a volume scorer is pretty telling to me. Probably not coincidentally, there's the problem with big men scorers that they are dependent on their teammates to work to get them the ball.

Not sure where you are going with this. Are you saying that modern players would be too conscious of their own stats to be willing to force the ball inside enough for Wilt to take 51% of his team's shots the way he did in the 50 pt season? (It was much less most years but still pretty extreme usage) If so, you may be right. If not, what are you saying?

[writerman]

Jordan was a better scorer than Wilt. First off he has a higher career ppg than Wilt. Next off he has a higher Playoff PPG than Wilt and 3rd off he has a higher Finals PPG than Wilt. In fact, Jordan is the only player in history to average 30+ ppg in the season and playoffs and even finals.

Here is a synopsis of it

ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS:
1st Place: MJ, 22 scoring records
2nd Place: Wilt, 18 scoring records
3rd Place: Moot

- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6 (min. 15 games)
- Highest single season scoring average: Wilt 50.4
- Highest single season playoff average: West 40.6
- Highest single series playoff average: West 46.3
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most Total Points Career: Kareem 38387
- Most Total Points Season: Wilt 4029
- Most Total Points Playoffs: MJ 5987
- Most Total Points Finals: West 1679
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most seasons leading league in total points: MJ 11
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ, Wilt tied at 7
- Most 60 point games: Wilt 32
- Most 50 point games: Wilt 118- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games: Wilt 271- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 38
- Most 30 point games: MJ 563
- Most consecutive 60 point games: Wilt 4
- Most consecutive 50 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 50 point games playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games: Wilt 14
- Most consecutive 40 point games rookie: AI 5
- Most consecutive 40 point games playoffs: West 6
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 35 point games: Wilt 33
- Most consecutive 30 point games: Wilt 65
- Most consecutive 30 point games playoffs: Elgin 11
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games: Wilt 126
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Most consecutive points in one game: Manu 24
- Most consecutive points in one game playoffs: LBJ 25
- Highest scoring game: Wilt 100
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Highest scoring game finals: Elgin 61
- Highest scoring game rookie: Wilt 58
- Highest scoring all-star game: Wilt 42
- Highest scoring all-rookie game: KB 31
- Most points in 3 quarters: Wilt 69
- Most points in one half: Wilt 59
- Most points one half playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 39
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Most points one half all-star game: Rice 24
- Most points in one quarter: Gervin 33
- Most points in one quarter playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 29
- Most points in one quarter finals: Isiah 25
- Most points in one quarter all-star game: Rice 20
- Most points in OT: Arenas 16
- Most points in OT playoffs: Drexler 13
- Most points in OT in finals: Havlicek, Laimbeer,
Ainge tied at 9
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40

So saying take Wilt out of the equation when he was behind Jordan anyway doesn't quite work.

Jordan averaged more career points per game by a whisker than Wilt--while shooting almost 50 points lower in FG%.

Michael Jordan played in one of the weakest eras in NBA history, Wilt in one of the strongest. Jordan never faced the level of competition day in and day out that Wilt did.

Other than that whisker of career difference in ppg (and I've always maintained Jordan was shameless in that he never saw a shot he didn't like) and FT%, there is not a single thing Michael Jordan did as well as Wilt did on the basketball court.

Michael Jordan was a great player--but the absurd deification he recieves from some here is more than a little tiresome.

Ask any GM if he was starting a franchise who he would rather have to build around--prime Jordan, or prime Wilt--and if he picks anyone other than Wilt he's an idiot and should be fired by his team owner if that owner has an ounce of sense. Basketball is a vertical game.

[KNICKS1970]

-= original quote snipped =-

Michael Jordan was a great player--but the absurd deification he recieves from some here is more than a little tiresome.

Wait, are we sure that this is writerman? Did writerman just admit that Michael Jordan is a great player?

Ask any GM if he was starting a franchise who he would rather have to build around--prime Jordan, or prime Wilt--and if he picks anyone other than Wilt he's an idiot and should be fired by his team owner if that owner has an ounce of sense. Basketball is a vertical game.

That's a fair assessment and I agree. However, you must also realize that anyone with half a basketball mind would take Jordan in the 4th quarter of a big game situation than Wilt. And honestly, Jordan would go no worse than 5th in a "Fantasy Draft" (and that's what it is, a glorified Fantasy Draft), but Wilt would probably be in the 20s or even 30s when you're ranking guys you'd rather have at crunch-time of a big game situation. Jordan, of course, would go #1.