Vince Carter = Most Underrated All-Star

halfHAVOC · Post #21 » by **halfHAVOC** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:49 pm

injuries and the jkidd drama killed this season.

if hes back with the nets next year, believe me along with RJ and a bigman you will see why he is so good. he just has to try hard the whole year.

Birth of the Cool · Post #22 » by **Birth of the Cool** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:07 pm

U-Borat wrote:This thread is hilarious...There are about 5 ten year olds who have already posted on this thread who thinks dunks>all.

Get over it.
Carter is an AVERAGE all-star.

You're the first one to say "dunks>all", but nice non-sequitur.

Mad Balla 15 and Serpo explained in details their arguments and frankly this topic has been done to death and rehashed but your "counterargument" responding to a statement that wasn't even made in the first place with a emoticon doesn't exactly hold water unless you are one of Peter Vescey's sources...

Teko · Post #23 » by **Teko** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:13 pm

Bgil wrote:
Way to cherry pick the stats. Ricky Davis put up 20, 5, and 5 not too long ago.

Just checked... Ricky Davis has never put up 20/5/5 in his career... ~

raps4life~ · Post #24 » by **raps4life~** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:26 pm

vince is one of the most talented players ever. i remember at one point while he was a raptors, there was a rumor that the lakers had offered kobe for vince, but the raptors rejected it.

the guy admitted that he never gave it his all and said that he was simply relying on his talent. i cant imagine how good he could have been if he had the heart and passion of a guy like kobe.

Birth of the Cool · Post #25 » by **Birth of the Cool** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:36 pm

U-Borat wrote:Come up all you want with pseudo-stats, but if you actually think Carter is anything close to a superstar...your head needs checking.

JJ is FAR better than Carter...not to sure about Howard, especially not this season.

I like the argument that "pseduo-stats" are meaningless but opinion esp. if it favours your argument is more valid.

For this particular season, frankly both JJ and VC were disappointing up to the All-Star game. Many Hawks fans considered Josh Smith a better All-Star selection. Since Kidd was already a Nets pick for the All-Star game I had absolutely no problem with VC being left off this year considering the Nets dismal record (heck I would have leaned towards RJ over VC for All-Star this year). However, both JJ and VC picked it up after the All-Star break and the better team got into the playoffs.

That being said JJ is not FAR better than Carter.

VC was 21.3 / 6.0 / 5.1 at 0.456
JJ was 21.7 / 4.5 / 5.8 at 0.432

looking closer,
JJ had on/off court +/- of +9.8
VC had on/off court +/- of +12.2

JJ efg% 0.489
VC efg% 0.494

JJ - 80% of FGA were jumpshots
VC - 67% of FGA were jumpshots

JJ - 8.2% on FT Shooting & Foul Drawing
VC - 11.3% on FT Shooting & Foul Drawing

JJ - 8.3 passing skills
VC - 7.7 passing skills

JJ- 11.5 rebounding
VC - 15.9 rebounding

JJ - 0.7 shot blocking
VC - 1.7 shot blocking

JJ - 19 hands rating
VC - 20.2 hands rating

JJ - Opponent production at SG 15.4
VC - Opponent production at SG 14.3

I like both players. They are both good ball handlers that can score inside/out, both are unselfish & are good passers for their position, and both imo are underrated. I can't see how anyone can see both players and say one is "FAR better" than the other without having some sort of bias.

The topic at hand however, was not if JJ or VC was the better player but if VC was underrated. When he is being compared to Josh Howard (who I also like) and guys like Ricky Davis / Harold Miner (in this thread) and being called out on national TV by Magic Johnson as a "regular player" then yeah he is underrated.

I don't expect to change people's minds...VC is the Hillary Clinton of the NBA (insert VC = female joke here). People have their perceptions and for good or bad and are damned if they will change it. I'll leave it at that since this topic has been done before and will be done again. I'll chime in again next time it comes up I guess.

etopn23 · Post #26 » by **etopn23** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:39 pm

VC has been better than JJ this season despite the fact he's on one leg. I've no doubt that this will be a laughable comparison in favor of VC if he's healthy going into training camp next season.

AIfan3 · Post #27 » by **AIfan3** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:38 pm

Teko wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Just checked... Ricky Davis has never put up 20/5/5 in his career... ~

Even if he has. it's downright laughable to even put both in the same sentence..

He's still better than JJ, despite what tsherkin stated..I've watched both of them a lot this season and I can tell you JJ has been wildly inconsistent on BOTH ends of the court and his impact has been non existant late in the 4th quarter for quite a few games this season..

I've actually seen people trying to suggest Jamal Crawford of all people is superior to VC.. He's underrated

MrDollarBills · Post #28 » by **MrDollarBills** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:50 pm

Josh Howard is better than Vince???

Despite their popularity, drugs are not good for the brain. This is just another example

And trying to compare a healthy JJ to Vince Carter who played 98% of this season with a torn up ankle is laughable.

Ronaldo/dinho · Post #29 » by **Ronaldo/dinho** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:52 pm

When it comes to Vince Carter, haters dismiss all the stats that proves them wrong. They always revert to 'subjective opinion" like 'vince ain't got heart" well how do you prove that? cuz i can prove he has heart by playing through a bad ankle all season long. Vince shot selection is worst and doesn't attack the basket enough? dudes do you all watch nets games or just skim through it by looking at the box scoret? I remember there was once a stat posted that VC attack the basket more than top swing men in the game excluding (insert name here) anyhow having watched nets game VC attacks the basket regularly it's just that the lift isn't there because of a bad ankle...also lets not forget about Lawrence frank.

Vince is a top dude in this league...the most underrated of them all. He's the most rounded swing men besides lebron and kobe. He's that good but haters choose to just hate on him because it's the cool thing to do nowadays and because he's an easy target...meh who cares bunch of internet nerds...bet they'd trade their hateful soul to be in vince carter's situation.

Ronaldo/dinho · Post #30 » by **Ronaldo/dinho** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:00 pm

tsherkin wrote:e he could if he was focused more often.

These are all truths about Vince Carter. You take that away, he's still an All-Star, just not a superstar like a Kobe or a Lebron, etc. Joe Johnson and Josh Howard ARE better than Vince.

.

Please log off the **** net trying sound smart, not hating and ****...Josh Howard? your basketball cred is shot down....don't bother quoting me back, no point in debating with someone who' don't know what the **** he's talking about.

Trash of a statement right there. Joe Johnson is debatable but Carter still the better player.

:crazy:

Ronaldo/dinho · Post #31 » by **Ronaldo/dinho** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:03 pm

Not in talent or diversity of skill (well, JJ maybe because he's a better defender and passer) or in athleticism but because they are capable of exerting a comparable or superior impact on a game by nature of their respective styles of play.

Why does this guy bother posting this rubbish ****? loool i haven't laughed hard for a long time..that's just terrible assessment right there

oh my freakin my.

360 · Post #32 » by **360** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:14 pm

Vince Carter is not a good basketball player. I wouldn't want him on my team and I'm a Grizzlies fan.

Ronaldo/dinho · Post #33 » by **Ronaldo/dinho** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:17 pm

360 wrote:Vince Carter is not a good basketball player. I wouldn't want him on my team and I'm a Grizzlies fan.

What is a good basketball player in your opinion? :lol:

This thread is filled with humor. entertain us please !

21/6/5 on one leg isn't a basketball player? 25/6/5 the year before is not a good basketball player, being 7th in all-time playoffs ppg is not a good basketball player? then what is? let's go i'm hear all day, lets here all the hilarious statement regarding Vince...I for one is stressed out so this quite a laugh would do me good.

Basileus777 · Post #34 » by **Basileus777** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:22 pm

360 wrote:Vince Carter is not a good basketball player. I wouldn't want him on my team and I'm a Grizzlies fan.

Would you trade him for Kwame Brown?

Post #35 » by **Manhattan Project** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:35 pm

The thing with Vince Carter is exactly like Tsherkin said, no body will ever question his talents or skills. Its what you do with those that make you the player. Josh Howard and Joe Johnson MAXIMIZE their skills and talents, while Carter gives a MINIMAL effort most of the time. Thats how good he is, when motivated he is right up there with the elite swing men.

Thats why the subject of Vince Carter is extremely touchy, he is so damn talented and people realize this. However people also notice his sub par play at times people dont forget this. One thing I will give credit to Carter this year is playing injured throughout the year, a lot of people thought he would shut it down.

Personally I do believe that Carter are better then Howard and Johnson, but the gap between the three are extremely close. Howard worked for everything he got in this league, he was never supposed to be good. He was average at everything and thought of as a bench player. Joe Johnson people forget how crucial he was to Phoenix especially in the playoffs, he almost single handily beat the Spurs. Johnson got a lot of hype in his draft, but was always past over in terms of talent around the league. When he was traded for Rogers most people forgot about him. Then he made a name for himself with the Suns and worked hard to become the player he is today. Looking at Carter you see a player that was always better then the rest and has coasted his entire career. Just imagine if he had Manu's intangibles is right.

Ronaldo/dinho · Post #39 » by **Serpo** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:38 pm

Take the time to read this...credit - SaadJ15

First, I'll tell you why I created this thread. This season has been one of the most lopsided seasons of Vince's career. I know a lot of you could care less about Vince. But for those who "hate" him and those who "love" him, this is for you to read. I'm tired of all the criticism of Vince Carter on his play this year...if you've watched ESPN, or read articles about Vince this year, you would think Vince's career is on downfall, and you would think he isn't that same superstar anymore.... I can't even tell you how false that is...I don't know why the media takes so many cheap shots at Carter. He's like the scapegoat of the NBA. And you know I'm right. Anything that goes wrong in New Jersey is blamed on VC.

I know there are a lot of Vince critics on this board and other boards, but I'm gonna take a wild chance to change your opinion on Vince Carter. If your one of those who took Magic Johnson's words and summed up Carter's season, this is for you. If your a bitter raptor fan, this is not for you, because I know I'll be wasting my time.

Magic Johnson on TNT overtime:
"The knees are gone"
"He's not playing at a superstar level and he can't do that anymore"
"His best days are behind him"

Vince Carter's season:
21.3 ppg, 6.0 rpg 5.1 apg on 45.6% Keep in mind that he only took 16.1 shots per game compared to recent years of 19 shots per game.

Vince started off the season well, with the Nets going 4-1 in their first 5. Then Vince, while dunking in traffic against the celtics, landed on Pierces foot, suffering a severe Ankle Sprain. He missed 6 games. The Nets lost ALL 6 of them.

PROBLEM 1
Vince's ankle was swollen ALL year long and he was playing on 1 leg until he took a cortisone shot. The shot helped Vince feel better and though still playing on 1 leg, Vince's play obviously improved. Rod Thorn said that with Vince's injury, he shouldn't even be playing, and that he should've stopped a long time ago. Vince has just gotten surgery on the ankle yesterday. They removed loose bodies, performed debridgement and removed a bone spur. Dave D, the Nets analyst said Vince's ankle was A LOT worse than people had thought.

PROBLEM 2
Lawrence Frank, for whatever reason, switched the Net's offense to a new Motion offense. He said he wanted everyone to get involved. A couple of weeks into the season, after Carter's injury, it became clear that Richard Jefferson was gonna be the Net's main scorer. Richard was comfortable with the new offense, as it was run through him. He played stellar, while Vince, who the ball came to mostly when the shot clock winded down or as a last resort when the play failed, still came through to average at LEAST 20.

PROBLEM 3
Jason Kidd started to drift off, day dreaming about playing with LeBron in Cleveland and Dirk in Dallas. He, midway through the season, started to care less and less about leading New Jersey, and more about getting out of there. He didn't let the team know until less than a month before the trade. This hurt the Nets big time as they had no leader. Vince was anything but receptive to take over Kidd's leadership. He didn't wanna step in Kidd's way. So the Nets were kind of just drifting, with no superstar, no leader, but just a cheap primary scorer in RJ. Jason Kidd was soon accused of stat-padding, just trying to get Triple doubles and not really leading the team.

So if Vince + (RJ, bad offense, J-Kidd's drama, and 1 leg) = 21.3 points per game, 6 assists, and 5 rebounds, Then I guess he's not a superstar level player anymore right? and guess what. The ONLY 3 players this year to average at least 20 points, 6 rebounds, and 5 assists were Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, and Vince Carter. Two of which are MVP candidates.

Go look up Vince's highlights from this year and tell me he didn't prove Magic Johnson's "His knees are gone" comment wrong. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna make a video of all of Vince's dunks from after Magic's comments to show how wrong Vince proved Magic.

In the last two months of the season.Vince's ankle started swelling up and he said it felt like he injured it again. "He's soft, no heart, he'll probably sit out" Really?
Vince Carter's stats in the last month span of the season:
25.4 ppg 7.2 rpg 5.5 apg

Vince played through the ankle again and had his best two months of the season. These two months were with Kidd in Dallas. So with Kidd out of the equation, Vince's number already went up dramatically. Now imagine if the other problems were fixed.

This post is not calling out or directed to any members on this board. I just wanted everyone to be clear on Vince's season and I wanted it to be known that Vince Carter is still here. Maybe he can't jump over Weis as he did in 2000. But on that same play, the Vince of now, will make a better decision and get the job done a different but just as effective way. Vince can still SOAR but just not that extra 6-12 inches he had in 2000.

Just watch this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=u9cqi1fnjc4 [MaxaMillion711 07-08 Trailer]

PROOF
Here's the evidence to my post
The articles as to where I got all of my info from.
http://www.netsdaily.com/blog/?p=466
http://njmg.typepad.com/zzone/2008/0...-has-ankl.html
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/...lications.html
http://str8hoops.wordpress.com/2008/...-vince-carter/

Since Jason Kidd went south (in so many ways), it