Tayshaun Prince Vs. Travis Outlaw

[Jsun947]

Both players have exact same builds and put up very similar numbers. Their roles on the team is very different though. Travis is there to score, score, score, and play the best defense he can. Prince has a more even role in terms of offense and defense due to Billups, Hamilton, and Wallace.

Outlaw
26.7 MPG
13.3 PPG
4.6 RPG
1.3 APG
.7 SPG
.8 BPG
43.3% FG
39.6% 3PFG

Prince
32.9 MPG
13.2 PPG
4.9 RPG
3.3 APG
.5 SPG
.4 BPG
44.8% FG
36.3% 3PFG

Pros for Travis
More Athletic
Less Endurance (Asthma)
5 years younger then Prince
This year shot better from 3

Pros for Prince
Veteran
Good man-man defender
Better Handles
Better Passer

Who do you take for the long haul?

[Cmurda$maka]

this a bad comparison. tayshaun by far

[mojomarc]

this a bad comparison. tayshaun by far

+1, with the exceptions of youth and contract.

[Red Robot]

Outlaw puts up numbers that don't match his actual contribution. The numbers are close to even, but Tayshaun is smarter, a better team player, and a better defender. He's definitely the better player right now.

I'd also take Prince going forward. The difference in their play more than makes up for the age gap. Travis may never become someone who can start for a good team.

[farzi]

Prince easily, unless outlaw equals his jump from las year to this year, but I don't see that happening

[JordansBulls]

Prince

[AnSweR07]

Prince is a baller and so underrated.

[jab]

Prince easily, unless outlaw equals his jump from las year to this year, but I don't see that happening

Outlaw will never be able to all the things Tay has been doing for the last 5 years.

[candy for lunch]

gotta go with my boys so i voted outlaw but would trade him for prince instantly

[Wizenheimer]

It's hard to seperate the present...where prince has a big advantage...from the "long haul". I have to go with prince, even though I like outlaw.

[Hunter]

-= original quote snipped =-



+1, with the exceptions of youth and contract.

Tay has also NEVER missed a game due to injury. I think he's started like every single game for the Pistons the last 5 years or something ridiculous like that. Despite his frail looking build the dude is remarkably durable, and we *know* he produces in the post-season. Now maybe Outlaw would too if given the opportunity, but I'm always inclined to take the known quantity.

This is Tay rather easily. In fact this is a bit insulting to Tayshaun.

[theBigLip]

Prince has a great career of postseason performances. He actually helped knock out Philly years ago in the playoffs, back when his regualr season was full of DNP-CDs. He's been doing it ever since. And that block of Miller against Indiana is an all time classic.

Prince in a landslide.

[Liqourish]

My favorite part of this WHOLE thread?

Pros for Travis
More Athletic
Less Endurance (Asthma)
5 years younger then Prince
This year shot better from 3

Pros for Prince
Veteran
Good man-man defender
Better Handles
Better Passer

[Wizenheimer]

I posted this in a thread on the trades board:



Pts/36min: Outlaw 18.0....Prince 14.4
Reb/36min: Outlaw 6.2....Prince 5.3
Ast/36min: Outlaw 1.7....Prince 3.6
Steals/36min: Outlaw 1.0....Prince 0.6
Blocks/36min: Outlaw 1.0....Prince 0.4
FG%: Outlaw .433....Prince .448
3pfFG%: Outlaw .396....Prince .363
eFG%: Outlaw .454....Prince .476
TS%: Outlaw .500....Prince .516
FT%: Outlaw .741....Prince .768
FTA: Outlaw 4.8....Prince 3.2
FTM: Outlaw 3.6....Prince 2.5
Turnovers/36min: Outlaw 1.8....Prince 1.2
Turnover%: Outlaw 8.9....Prince 8.0
Fouls/36min: Outlaw 2.8....Prince 1.2
OffReb%: Outlaw 5.2....Prince 4.8
DefReb%: Outlaw 15.0....Prince 12.9
TotalReb%: Outlaw 10.1....Prince 8.8
Assist%: Outlaw 8.9....Prince 16.5
Steal%: Outlaw 1.5....Prince 0.9
Block%: Outlaw 2.2....Prince 1.0

The most glaring difference is Prince's advantage in assists and turnovers. Some of that can be attributed to the roles each player is asked to play, but not all of it. There's also the prominent factor of experience affecting that. Prince has started 413 games in his career, while Outlaw has only started 20 and has played 285. In other words, Prince has started in 128 more games then Outlaw has even played.

As far as the turnovers, the overall turnover percentage is actually quite close...within a point, so in reality, Outlaw doesn't turn the ball over significantly more, he just doesn't assist remotely as well as Prince.

Obviously, this season, Outlaw was better in scoring, rebounding, steals, and blocked shots, which is somewhat surprising. Overall, Prince is the more efficient shooter. However, Outlaw is asked to create offense for himself quite often. One result of that is that Outlaw draws fouls at a higher rate then prince: 11.7% versus 9.8%. Of course, it's likely defers to his teammates more then Outlaw does, skewing some of the offensive production numbers in Outlaw's favor.

On the other hand, prince is more effective at getting closer, higher percentage shots. Only 63% of Prince's shots are jump shots, while 84% of Outlaw's are.

Outlaw was clearly more dynamic in 'clutch play' stats this season. As noted earlier Prince was a better shooter overall, however, that wasn't the case in the last 5 minutes of close games:

clutch play:

FG%: Outlaw .508....Prince .424
eFG%: Outlaw .525....Prince .439
FT/48: Outlaw 8.2....Prince 1.6
Points/48: Outlaw 29.2....Prince 13.2

Those numbers appear to be a decided advantage for Outlaw.

Obviously, all these numbers don't do a lot to measure Prince's ability on the defensive end. He's a very good defender and that he's able to be so, with an extremely low foul rate is impressive, and gives him a clear advantage on that end of the floor.

I'm no expert at analyzing stats, and I'm sure others can be much more comprehensive at the job.

What becomes apparent is that Prince's numbers over the last 4 seasons are amazingly consistent. A team would know what they'd get from Prince and that has a lot of value.

However, it's also a fairly safe conclusion that prince is at, or quite close, to his ceiling. He won't be improving significantly from here. On the other hand, Outlaw's numbers, efficiency, and production are all trending up rather dramatically. So the fact that he's already better or equal to Prince in so many areas, would at least justify considering outlaw over prince.

Ultimately, I'd take prince, and that's how I voted. But it's a lot closer then most here are crediting. Comparing Outlaw to Prince is not an "insult" to Prince, nor is this necessarily a 'slam-dunk' in Prince's favor.

[Hunter]

^What makes it such a landslide in Tays favor are the intangibles that can't be easily measured with stats.

Lots of guys can fill up a stat sheet. That's not necessarily the best way to measure a players value.

[Wizenheimer]

^What makes it such a landslide in Tays favor are the intangibles that can't be easily measured with stats.

Lots of guys can fill up a stat sheet. That's not necessarily the best way to measure a players value.

well, this forum isn't the best way either, especially considering the disparity in the number of time most of the voters here have seen Prince play versus Outlaw. The "landslide" can be a function of that as much as anything.

I wasn't taking exception to the idea that Prince was better, but to the idea that the comparison was an "insult", or "not even close".

I voted for Prince knowing how he stacked up in those stats I pointed out. I'm guessing a lot of people didn't know that Outlaw was ahead of Prince in a lot of those categories.

[Hendrix]

I posted this in a thread on the trades board:



Pts/36min: Outlaw 18.0....Prince 14.4
Reb/36min: Outlaw 6.2....Prince 5.3
Ast/36min: Outlaw 1.7....Prince 3.6
Steals/36min: Outlaw 1.0....Prince 0.6
Blocks/36min: Outlaw 1.0....Prince 0.4
FG%: Outlaw .433....Prince .448
3pfFG%: Outlaw .396....Prince .363
eFG%: Outlaw .454....Prince .476
TS%: Outlaw .500....Prince .516
FT%: Outlaw .741....Prince .768
FTA: Outlaw 4.8....Prince 3.2
FTM: Outlaw 3.6....Prince 2.5
Turnovers/36min: Outlaw 1.8....Prince 1.2
Turnover%: Outlaw 8.9....Prince 8.0
Fouls/36min: Outlaw 2.8....Prince 1.2
OffReb%: Outlaw 5.2....Prince 4.8
DefReb%: Outlaw 15.0....Prince 12.9
TotalReb%: Outlaw 10.1....Prince 8.8
Assist%: Outlaw 8.9....Prince 16.5
Steal%: Outlaw 1.5....Prince 0.9
Block%: Outlaw 2.2....Prince 1.0

The most glaring difference is Prince's advantage in assists and turnovers. Some of that can be attributed to the roles each player is asked to play, but not all of it. There's also the prominent factor of experience affecting that. Prince has started 413 games in his career, while Outlaw has only started 20 and has played 285. In other words, Prince has started in 128 more games then Outlaw has even played.

As far as the turnovers, the overall turnover percentage is actually quite close...within a point, so in reality, Outlaw doesn't turn the ball over significantly more, he just doesn't assist remotely as well as Prince.

Obviously, this season, Outlaw was better in scoring, rebounding, steals, and blocked shots, which is somewhat surprising. Overall, Prince is the more efficient shooter. However, Outlaw is asked to create offense for himself quite often. One result of that is that Outlaw draws fouls at a higher rate then prince: 11.7% versus 9.8%. Of course, it's likely defers to his teammates more then Outlaw does, skewing some of the offensive production numbers in Outlaw's favor.

On the other hand, prince is more effective at getting closer, higher percentage shots. Only 63% of Prince's shots are jump shots, while 84% of Outlaw's are.

Outlaw was clearly more dynamic in 'clutch play' stats this season. As noted earlier Prince was a better shooter overall, however, that wasn't the case in the last 5 minutes of close games:

clutch play:

FG%: Outlaw .508....Prince .424
eFG%: Outlaw .525....Prince .439
FT/48: Outlaw 8.2....Prince 1.6
Points/48: Outlaw 29.2....Prince 13.2

Those numbers appear to be a decided advantage for Outlaw.

Obviously, all these numbers don't do a lot to measure Prince's ability on the defensive end. He's a very good defender and that he's able to be so, with an extremely low foul rate is impressive, and gives him a clear advantage on that end of the floor.

I'm no expert at analyzing stats, and I'm sure others can be much more comprehensive at the job.

What becomes apparent is that Prince's numbers over the last 4 seasons are amazingly consistent. A team would know what they'd get from Prince and that has a lot of value.

However, it's also a fairly safe conclusion that prince is at, or quite close, to his ceiling. He won't be improving significantly from here. On the other hand, Outlaw's numbers, efficiency, and production are all trending up rather dramatically. So the fact that he's already better or equal to Prince in so many areas, would at least justify considering outlaw over prince.

Ultimately, I'd take prince, and that's how I voted. But it's a lot closer then most here are crediting. Comparing Outlaw to Prince is not an "insult" to Prince, nor is this necessarily a 'slam-dunk' in Prince's favor.

I don't like looking at stats at all in a comparison like this. Prince is asked to create shots, but he also plays with Billups, Sheed, and Prince in the starting line-up who are all great #1,2,3 scorers on 60 win teams. Just not enough ball to go around to put up stats, but it doesn't take away that he's a great player. Also doesn't measure how great of a man to man defender, and team defender Prince is. I'de take Prince rather easily.

I t

[Wizenheimer]

I don't like looking at stats at all in a comparison like this.

not surprising considering that outlaw has an edge statistically and you're inclined to go for prince.

Prince is asked to create shots, but he also plays with Billups, Sheed, and Prince in the starting line-up who are all great #1,2,3 scorers on 60 win teams. Just not enough ball to go around to put up stats, but it doesn't take away that he's a great player.

I never said Prince wasn't a good player...I just said Outlaw wasn't as weak as all the overstatement in Prince's favor implied.

And while sharing the floor with billups and hamilton could explain Prince's lower scoring numbers, that really doesn't apply to rebounds where outlaw has a clear advantage. Nor does it apply to blocked shots and steals, another area where outlaw has a clear advantage, a bit surprising considering Prince's reputation for defense.

Furthermore, those clutch time stats can't be ignored. Outlaw has become a 'go to' guy... a 2nd option type. He was asked to create and score and he won several games for the blazers this season. Certainly, Prince might be the same type of player, but sharing the floor with Billups, etc. mitigates the need. On the other hand, Outlaw became something that prince has not, for whatever reason, and that is a credit to Outlaw.

Also doesn't measure how great of a man to man defender, and team defender Prince is. I'de take Prince rather easily.

I've mentioned Prince's defense in every post I've made, and ultimately, it's why I voted for him.

However...you saying "rather easily" after saying you didn't want to consider stats which tend to give an edge to outlaw is curious. Certainly, stats can be used to support either side of most arguments, but a lot of those stats I posted at least have the appearence of objective factors.

[Hendrix]

-= original quote snipped =-

not surprising considering that outlaw has an edge statistically and you're inclined to go for prince.

I'm not even a Piston fans, and you're a Blazer fan. Please tell me who's more inclind to be bias. Yeah...What I thought.

I never said Prince wasn't a good player...I just said Outlaw wasn't as weak as all the overstatement in Prince's favor implied.

And while sharing the floor with billups and hamilton could explain Prince's lower scoring numbers, that really doesn't apply to rebounds where outlaw has a clear advantage. Nor does it apply to blocked shots and steals, another area where outlaw has a clear advantage, a bit surprising considering Prince's reputation for defense.

Furthermore, those clutch time stats can't be ignored. Outlaw has become a 'go to' guy... a 2nd option type. He was asked to create and score and he won several games for the blazers this season. Certainly, Prince might be the same type of player, but sharing the floor with Billups, etc. mitigates the need. On the other hand, Outlaw became something that prince has not, for whatever reason, and that is a credit to Outlaw.

I swear realgm is getting (Please Use More Appropriate Word) with all the people that look at stats instead of watching players. Blocked shots, and steals are rediculously overated on defense. I could care less about Outlaw averaging 0.2 more steals/game, and 0.4 more blocks/game then Prince . It's pointless to even bring up let alone call it a "clear advantage". Getting 1 more steal every 5 games doesn't even put a dent into the difference between their defensive impacts.

I didn't say outlaw wasn't better at certain things. I smply said I'de take Prince rather easily. Outlaw isn't a 2nd option a 60 win team either imo, and I doubt his clutch stats would anywhere close to that gap if he was on a team with 3 allstar scorers on the same team as him.

I've mentioned Prince's defense in every post I've made, and ultimately, it's why I voted for him.

However...you saying "rather easily" after saying you didn't want to consider stats which tend to give an edge to outlaw is curious. Certainly, stats can be used to support either side of most arguments, but a lot of those stats I posted at least have the appearence of objective factors.

Stats are sqewed from team to team and situation to situation. Mike James is a 20/5 guy on a 27 win team and not even in the ballpark on a good team for example. I prefer to watch players play and form an opinion then look at miniscule advantages in 36 minute adjusted numbers from players on different teams, and in drastically different situations.

[Hunter]

I'm not even a Piston fans, and you're a Blazer fan. Please tell me who's more inclind to be bias. Yeah...What I thought.