McGrady + Shaq or Kobe + Dwight

[Greer]

-= original quote snipped =-


If you think it is so stupid then why are you posting in this topic. GTFO, most people don't have a problem with this, this is for discussion not some official NBA ranking crap.

There are tons of more stupid comparisons, like Jordan vs. LeBron on the boards.

GTFO eh? w/e, I post in it because I can. I don't have a huge problem with it. But it is a dumb comparison. Seriously you throw in a player who has been in the league for only 4 years with tons of potential with 3 players who have been in the league for 11+ years, two HOF and one superstar. It makes no sense especially when you start grouping them together as teams. You can't compare potential players to HOF's, it is the same thing as Jordan vs Lebron.

[semi-sentient]

If Kobe and Dwight stay on the same team their entire careers, I'll take them primarily due to the injury-prone nature of both T-Mac and Shaq.

If I had to choose a pair in their primes, then I'd go with T-Mac and Shaq, but that isn't what the OP asked, so get bent.

[Kobay]

People do realize Dwight Howard right now is averaging 20 points on 12 FGs a night and 11FTs. Shaq averaged 29 points on 20 shots and 11Fts in his prime.

And your telling me your going to pick shaq???? AT worst there isn't much of difference between shaq and dwight. If not Shaq's work ethic, pick and roll defense, and ego should be the question. Dwight has none of those problems. Dwight is beasting it up with players that don't know how to pass him the ball, without any superstar wing. And looking at history of Kobe with bigs and your telling me your going to pick Tmac and shaq? Hell there is not a single negative for kobe for almost any big and while Tmac cannot get out of first round with yao ming and you still pick em? Comon dude seriously.

[etopn23]

People do realize Dwight Howard right now is averaging 20 points on 12 FGs a night and 11FTs. Shaq averaged 29 points on 20 shots and 11Fts in his prime.

And your telling me your going to pick shaq???? AT worst there isn't much of difference between shaq and dwight. If not Shaq's work ethic, pick and roll defense, and ego should be the question. Dwight has none of those problems. Dwight is beasting it up with players that don't know how to pass him the ball, without any superstar wing. And looking at history of Kobe with bigs and your telling me your going to pick Tmac and shaq? Hell there is not a single negative for kobe for almost any big and while Tmac cannot get out of first round with yao ming and you still pick em? Comon dude seriously.

Because we all know T-Mac after his first year in Houston is = T-Mac in Orlando.

The only year McGrady played like he did in Orlando (his first year in Houston) he had one of his best playoff series to date (on the same level as Kobe's best) but no one else stepped up. Yao Ming wasn't what he is today then. By the time Yao started maturing McGrady started declining.

Not to mention he took a higher seeded team to 7 virtually single handedly.

People who point to McGrady not getting out of the first round with/without Yao don't know what they're talking about. Lol @ the person earlier in the thread who argued that peak McGrady wasn't even arguably on the level of Kobe. He must have had 5 years in coma or something.

[some_rand]

i will take the team with shaq any day of the week

[LiquidFire]

-= original quote snipped =-



Dwight and Kobe

22 yr old shaq = 22 yr old dwight btw

are you serious? get real kid.

[shawngoat23]

And your telling me your going to pick shaq???? AT worst there isn't much of difference between shaq and dwight.

Yes, I'll pick Shaq, and quite easily so. I like Howard--he's fun to watch, athletic, a really nice guy, and arguably the best center in the league today (with only Yao having an argument otherwise). But I know he's worlds behind prime Shaq, who I hated for being lazy, arrogant, and deceitful; who in turn, is worlds behind prime Wilt or Kareem.

[PimpORL]

Figures. Anyone stupid enough to believe Shaq is worlds behind Wilt and Russel will be stupid enough to believe Dwight is worlds behind Shaq.

[MagicNolesFSU]

-= original quote snipped =-



are you serious? get real kid.

lmao I shoulda known this kid was going to show his face at some point.

Dwight gets 12 shots a game and is still beasting everyone in his path.

22 yr old Dwight = 22 yr old shaq.

Cry about it if you want nerd.

[ronnymac2]

-= original quote snipped =-



Yes, I'll pick Shaq, and quite easily so. I like Howard--he's fun to watch, athletic, a really nice guy, and arguably the best center in the league today (with only Yao having an argument otherwise). But I know he's worlds behind prime Shaq, who I hated for being lazy, arrogant, and deceitful; who in turn, is worlds behind prime Wilt or Kareem.

lol nobody is worlds away from anybody in that group in terms of ability. All howard needs to do is develop his passing skills, realize how he can make things so much easier for his teammates on both ends of the floor, develop better counter moves in the post, and gain experience to help his defensive iq, and he will be on that rarified level of ability that shaq, wilt, and kareem (and dream, russell, drob, maybe a few others) are on. Howard CAN do all of these things, because they all are part of a player's regular maturing process. As he gains experience, gets older, and sees his weaknesses, he can work to get better and improve. Howard isn't that far off as it is already.

For the thread, as rookies, i def pick shaq and tmac. Just because shaq was one of the greatest rookies ever. Like somebody said, for primes, i can't answer, cuz nobody has seen dwight's prime yet. If its careers up to now, i got shaq and tmac again, just cuz shaq is most def top 10 of all time.

[shawngoat23]

Figures. Anyone stupid enough to believe Shaq is worlds behind Wilt and Russel will be stupid enough to believe Dwight is worlds behind Shaq.

Sorry, but you don't have the credentials to challenge my intelligence.

[HeyIt'sMe]

-= original quote snipped =-



Sorry, but you don't have the credentials to challenge my intelligence.

All hail ye, mighty 2008 poster with 125 total posts. Sorry, but you haven't been around here long enough to question anybody's intelligence.

About the topic at hand: will Howard reach prime Shaq? Probably not, but it's not out of the question that he could and saying that he has no chance it just plain ignorant. Shaq had three years of college experience to work out his kinks and develop his game. Howard was a late bloomer who grew seven inches between his freshmen and sophomore seasons in high school and was a finesse, perimeter oriented big man with little to no experience playing in the post coming out. As he's gained muscle and evolved into his body, he's changed his game completely and learned to become a better post player. Magic fans who have watched him can tell you he still has a ton to work on and isn't close to being the player he will be. As an aside, Hakeem didn't truly develop his post game to what it was until his late 20s/early 30s, so saying bigs don't get better as they get older is blatantly false.

Do not underrate work ethic. Work ethic is the reason MJ and Larry Legend became the players they were and a great work ethic can separate a very good player from a great one or even a great player from a legend. Howard's work ethic is incredible and with his physical gifts, it's somewhat far fetched to assume he's done getting better. He's already a better rebounder than Shaq ever was (IMHO) and also has the ability to become a better defender than Shaq, whose lack of work ethic stopped him from becoming the awesome defensive player he could of been.

[shawngoat23]

All hail ye, mighty 2008 poster with 125 total posts. Sorry, but you haven't been around here long enough to question anybody's intelligence.

Cut the sarcasm. Somehow, post count on RealGM gives you legitimacy in making an observation, but having actually watched players--at least Shaq--play doesn't? Being able to rationally form opinions on players and to coherently express your thoughts count for nothing, but mindlessly pimping your favorite player does? I might not have registered until recently, but I have seen many posts by PimpORL before I registered, so I know what to make of them. On the other hand, I have no idea who the hell you are; that's unfortunate for you, judging from the first impression your post has given up.

I will concede on thing--I probably shouldn't have said that the players in question were "worlds" different in terms of ability, because that's a vague term that means different things to different people. However, what I will say is that any rational, impartial basketball fan who has watched young Shaq play will tell you that he is just flat out better than Howard. While I haven't watched Wilt or Kareem play live, I can infer from that they were much better than Shaq from what is available to me. Of course, I had to go through the trouble of studying up on them, reading first-hand accounts, watching old footage, and analyzing the statistics, which you don't seem to be able to do.

It's naive to say that because Howard hasn't hit his prime yet, we cannot say he won't be better than Shaq. One can reasonably conclude how good he'll be by his limitations in terms of skill, which I know he can improve over the years, at least to some extent. But it won't be dramatic as he'll need to overtake prime Shaq. Tim Duncan has as good a work ethic as anyone, but his free throw shooting have not generally improved over his career.

If I'm proven wrong over the next decade or so, I'd be more than glad to be so, because Howard is one of my favorite bigs today, while Shaq is my least favorite. I'll be willing to take my lumps from anyone who's capable of engaging in intelligent discourse, which unfortunately, limits those who can't extend an argument beyond "you stupid hater idiot".

[LiquidFire]

-= original quote snipped =-



lmao I shoulda known this kid was going to show his face at some point.

Dwight gets 12 shots a game and is still beasting everyone in his path.

22 yr old Dwight = 22 yr old shaq.

Cry about it if you want nerd.

how do you think howard is better then shaq at 22? nerd.

[HeyIt'sMe]

[quote="shawngoat23"][/quote]

You seem to know your basketball, that I will give you. I never called you a hater, just that it's a little bit silly to think that without a doubt Howard cannot get to Shaq's level. Magic fans have seen Shaq first hand as a rookie with the Magic and yes, he WAS better than Dwight as a rookie, but we also know his game better than most having watched him for four full seasons and know what Dwight is capable of as well. That's the blessing of being able to watch two great talents within a 10-15 year time span of one another.

The thing that makes me believe that Howard still has a ton that he can improve upon and that he isn't done getting better is based on how incredibly raw he was coming into the league, and seeing the strides he has made within a four year time span. As a rookie, he struggled to even catch a ball and just look flat awkward at times with the ball in his hands. He now has excellent hands and an excellent knowledge of what he's doing once he receives the ball in the post. He's an incredible rebounder already, and his post game has gotten better and better each season he's been in the league. Some improvement has been gradual, but Magic fans have seen it and he gets better at the little things every season.

The fact that he was a late bloomer in high school and really didn't even try to develop any semblence of a post game until reaching the NBA leads one to believe that he still has a ton of room for improvement, and that as he gathers more and more experience, those weaknesses will turn into strengths. Nothing's a guarantee, sure, but it's also not a certainty that he's done improving.

I remember reading this board as recently as last season and some on here truly believed Dwight would never average 20 PPG, so nothing is set in stone.

[shawngoat23]

There are a few things definitely in Dwight's favor:
- Better work ethic
- Late bloomer in high school
- Weaker competition at the center position
- Better coaching
Plus a few other possibilities, which I would qualify:
- Youth, but Shaq put up better numbers at the same age, with less experience
- Athleticism, although I feel Shaq's even more freakish

On the topic of overtaking Shaq. Does Dwight have a chance of doing so? Yes, but only in the mathematical sense of probability. For all practical purposes, I don't think it's realistic at all; but I will concede that other people might judge differently.

[HeyIt'sMe]

There are a few things definitely in Dwight's favor:
- Better work ethic
- Late bloomer in high school
- Weaker competition at the center position
- Better coaching
Plus a few other possibilities, which I would qualify:
- Youth, but Shaq put up better numbers at the same age, with less experience
- Athleticism, although I feel Shaq's even more freakish

On the topic of overtaking Shaq. Does Dwight have a chance of doing so? Yes, but only in the mathematical sense of probability. For all practical purposes, I don't think it's realistic at all; but I will concede that other people might judge differently.

I doubt Dwight ever gets to Shaq's level offensively (I don't see any 29 PPG seasons in his future, and he'll probably max out at 22-24 PPG), but I do think he can be the better defensive player than O'Neal, mainly because of Shaq's lazy attitude towards that side of the ball. Magic fans have seen some games where Howard is just unbelievable defensively, and others where he's simply not aggressive at all. So far in the playoffs, we've seen the potential he has defensively. I truly believe he could be a 3-4 BPG big man if he went after opponents' shots more often, and hopefully with experience, he will.

Additionally, I know everyone writes it off as to being just the Raptors, but the three 20/20 games in five games shows his immense ability and potential. I don't care who you're playing, it's not easy to get 20/20 games, and Dwight does it with regularity.

We'll see how it goes down in the future, but I think Dwight's still got a ton of room to improve.

[eyriq]

Interesting topic. I think I will actually go Dwight/Kobe on this one. Dwight is anchoring the Magic's D with freaking Lewis at the 4! (I actually love him there, by he way). Anyway, Dwight has at least as much potential as Shaq, and Kobe is MJ lite. Done deal.

[MagicNolesFSU]

-= original quote snipped =-



how do you think howard is better then shaq at 22? nerd.

Do you even read before you type? I never said Howard was better. I said comparably equal in terms of impact. Gtfo or read.

[Crooked-I]

If prime Shaq had T-Mac the Lakers wouldn't have lost the championship in 2003 or 2004. The Lakers had a winning record without Kobe during the 3Peat because he was too busy trying to prove his value to the titles. So I'll go with Shaq and T-Mac. I don't see McGrady shooting his team out of a finals in an effort to win a finals mvp.

And I don't see Shaq and T-Mac getting past the Spurs, Queens, or Blazers those years. Considering how many close games there were in those series and how Shaq was never on the floor in crunch time, I have a hard time believing T-Mac would carry the Lakers with his inability to score in the 4th.

It's kind of hard to answer this question because you don't know where Dwight is going to end up. If he works on his offense, he would definetly belong in the same group with a prime Shaq. Right now he doesn't.