This to settle an argument. If these teams played in a round robin tournament, in what order would they finish?
Many of the player are from the 70s or 80s and some are not well known. I had to look some of them up, and I figured that while I was at it, I should include some representative stats. The numbers are approximate averages of their two or three best years. Use them if they help, but it's even better if you remember what everyone played like.
Team A:
Fat Lever (19 points, 8 assists, 2.5 steals, allstar)
Byron Scott (20 points, .410 3 point shooting, 3 rings)
Joe Caldwell (21 points, 6 rebounds, 4 assists, allstar)
Art Becker (ABA, 15 points, 8.5 rebounds, allstar)
Alton Lister (10 points, 8 rebounds, 2.2 blocks)
Team B:
Gary Payton (22 points, 9 assists, 2.5 steals, allstar)
Lester Connor (10 points, 5 assists, 2 steals)
Brent Barry (12 points, 5.5 assists, .425 3 point shooting)
Steve Johnson (15 points, 6 rebounds, .600 shooting, allstar)
AC Green (13 points, 9 rebounds, 1,192 straight games, allstar)
Team C:
Brevin Knight (10 pts, 8 ast, 2 stl)
Josh Childress (11 pts, 6 reb, .550 fg%)
George Yardley (24 pts, 10 reb, HOF)
Jim Pollard (15 pts, 9 reb, 3.5 assists, HOF)
Rich Kelley (12 pts, 10 reb, 3.5 assists)
Team D:
Terrell Brandon (19 points, 8 assists, 2 steals, allstar)
Steve "Snapper" Jones (ABA, 20 pts, .400 3 point shooting, allstar)
Jim Barnett (16 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists)
Greg Ballard (18 points, 7.5 rebounds, only 1.5 turnovers)
Blair Rasmussen (12.5 points, 6 rebounds)
Team E:
Nate Robinson (11 points, 3 rebounds, 3 assists)
Brandon Roy (18 points, 4.5 rebounds, 5.5 assists, allstar)
Detlef Schrempf (19 points, 9 rebounds, 4.5 assists, allstar)
James Edwards (16 points, 7.5 rebounds, made playoffs with 7 teams)
Steve Hawes (12 points, 8 rebounds)
Rank these slightly obscure teams
Moderators: Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal
Rank these slightly obscure teams
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Red Robot
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RobertGlory
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Re: Rank these slightly obscure teams
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bluestang302
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Re: Rank these slightly obscure teams
[quote="Red Robot"]
Settle an argument, eh? Your arguments sound more fun than mine usually are. I'm curious as to what sort of argument it is, and how you came across these teams. Some sort of simulation league?
I too am unfamiliar with some of these players - although I recognize all the names. The frontcourt's on all 5 teams seem mediocre across the board. (Referring to the PF and C spots). I don't really feel qualified to talk about Pollard and Yardley, two Hall of Famers from a long long time ago. I know Yardley was the first player to score 2000 points in a season. I'm not quite sure how they would fit in with these other players, as they played before the talent influx of 1960. Neither are talked about with the same reverence that other older stars like Mikan, Pettit, and Cousy are.
Apart from those two, I'd say James Edwards is probably the best offensive frontline player but he was a weak rebounder. Each team however has a solid banger center-type to make up for any weaknesses like that. I certainly don't think Edwards was good enough to provide a distinct advantage over any of these guys - I just feel he was possibly the best offensively. He did have a nice fadeaway jumper that helped him stick around the league in his very late 30s. Greg Ballard had some good years but was undersized if I recall.
Long story short, I think my decision will come down to the backcourts. I like the backcourt of Team A the best, followed by Team B. Team B has the best player in Payton, but Team B has a similar player in Lever and a very solid shooting guard in Scott. Payton and Lester "The Molestor" Connor make up a stifling defensive pair though.
I like Terrell Brandon and Brandon Roy next. Since I'm not really a big Nate Robinson fan, I'll pick Team D because Snapper's numbers look pretty good even though I thought he was a forward. I guess that leaves Team C for last, which is funny because they have two Hall of Famers on it. But like I said, it's hard to discuss players from that age. I'd feel a little more comfortable ranking them higher if they were from the next generation. If you picked Chet Walker and Happy Hairston, just to give examples. Knight is a good PG and Childress is a solid swingman.
Actually, I forgot to look at some of the SFs. Detlef was a great player. Versatile as hell, and a good shooter. I'll move his team up one notch and rank them like this:
A
B
E
D
C
Settle an argument, eh? Your arguments sound more fun than mine usually are. I'm curious as to what sort of argument it is, and how you came across these teams. Some sort of simulation league?
I too am unfamiliar with some of these players - although I recognize all the names. The frontcourt's on all 5 teams seem mediocre across the board. (Referring to the PF and C spots). I don't really feel qualified to talk about Pollard and Yardley, two Hall of Famers from a long long time ago. I know Yardley was the first player to score 2000 points in a season. I'm not quite sure how they would fit in with these other players, as they played before the talent influx of 1960. Neither are talked about with the same reverence that other older stars like Mikan, Pettit, and Cousy are.
Apart from those two, I'd say James Edwards is probably the best offensive frontline player but he was a weak rebounder. Each team however has a solid banger center-type to make up for any weaknesses like that. I certainly don't think Edwards was good enough to provide a distinct advantage over any of these guys - I just feel he was possibly the best offensively. He did have a nice fadeaway jumper that helped him stick around the league in his very late 30s. Greg Ballard had some good years but was undersized if I recall.
Long story short, I think my decision will come down to the backcourts. I like the backcourt of Team A the best, followed by Team B. Team B has the best player in Payton, but Team B has a similar player in Lever and a very solid shooting guard in Scott. Payton and Lester "The Molestor" Connor make up a stifling defensive pair though.
I like Terrell Brandon and Brandon Roy next. Since I'm not really a big Nate Robinson fan, I'll pick Team D because Snapper's numbers look pretty good even though I thought he was a forward. I guess that leaves Team C for last, which is funny because they have two Hall of Famers on it. But like I said, it's hard to discuss players from that age. I'd feel a little more comfortable ranking them higher if they were from the next generation. If you picked Chet Walker and Happy Hairston, just to give examples. Knight is a good PG and Childress is a solid swingman.
Actually, I forgot to look at some of the SFs. Detlef was a great player. Versatile as hell, and a good shooter. I'll move his team up one notch and rank them like this:
A
B
E
D
C
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penbeast0
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Team A:
Fat Lever (19 points, 8 assists, 2.5 steals, allstar)
Byron Scott (20 points, .410 3 point shooting, 3 rings)
Joe Caldwell (21 points, 6 rebounds, 4 assists, allstar)
Art Becker (ABA, 15 points, 8.5 rebounds, allstar)
Alton Lister (10 points, 8 rebounds, 2.2 blocks)
Team B:
Gary Payton (22 points, 9 assists, 2.5 steals, allstar)
Lester Connor (10 points, 5 assists, 2 steals)
Brent Barry (12 points, 5.5 assists, .425 3 point shooting)
Steve Johnson (15 points, 6 rebounds, .600 shooting, allstar)
AC Green (13 points, 9 rebounds, 1,192 straight games, allstar)
Team C:
Brevin Knight (10 pts, 8 ast, 2 stl)
Josh Childress (11 pts, 6 reb, .550 fg%)
George Yardley (24 pts, 10 reb, HOF)
Jim Pollard (15 pts, 9 reb, 3.5 assists, HOF)
Rich Kelley (12 pts, 10 reb, 3.5 assists)
Team D:
Terrell Brandon (19 points, 8 assists, 2 steals, allstar)
Steve "Snapper" Jones (ABA, 20 pts, .400 3 point shooting, allstar)
Jim Barnett (16 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists)
Greg Ballard (18 points, 7.5 rebounds, only 1.5 turnovers)
Blair Rasmussen (12.5 points, 6 rebounds)
Team E:
Nate Robinson (11 points, 3 rebounds, 3 assists)
Brandon Roy (18 points, 4.5 rebounds, 5.5 assists, allstar)
Detlef Schrempf (19 points, 9 rebounds, 4.5 assists, allstar)
James Edwards (16 points, 7.5 rebounds, made playoffs with 7 teams)
Steve Hawes (12 points, 8 rebounds)
Team A: Great backcourt, Scott was very underrated and his ballhandling and outside shot make him a nice complement to Lever. Caldwell was a very good wing defender and slasher with no range on his shot. Inside, however not so hot. Becker wasn't that impressive (surprised he made all-star after 68 when ABA was really weak) -- a tweener forward who played inside and was a bit on the dirty side; combine him with Lister, who played D but probably committed more fouls per minute than any legit player in history and you better have a deep bench, they were both hackers. Otherwise good team but no one dominates, playoff team but not title contender.
Team B Payton and AC Green are a solid foundation. Barry and Lester the Molester are more 3rd guard types though Barry always looked good. Steve Johnson was Eddie Curry with a decent attitude and less athleticism. Good inside scorer who gave it back on defense and rebounding. Probably a less than .500 team in today's NBA on normal years though if you took everyone's peak, Payton might carry them further.
Team C Yardley and Pollard are real early NBA, both probably have games that would translate but I didn't see them and am not sure how well. Knight and Childress are good roleplayers, Childress might be more but hasn't been yet. Rich Kelley was the kind of guy you use until you can draft a good center. Weak team, probably lottery.
Team D: Another team with an explosive PG and weak inside. Steve Jones was a solid 2-3 type who could play but not dominant; Barnett was a 3rd guard. Ballard was a hardworking decently skilled three without the footspeed to star or play defense. Rasmussen was another backup center playing out of need. Lottery team.
Team E: Not a bad team. Terrific do it all wings, Edwards was a good inside scorer, that's it. Hawes solid defense, no offense. Robinson isn't a starter to this point in his career and adds little (no pun intended). Competitive with team A.
Fat Lever (19 points, 8 assists, 2.5 steals, allstar)
Byron Scott (20 points, .410 3 point shooting, 3 rings)
Joe Caldwell (21 points, 6 rebounds, 4 assists, allstar)
Art Becker (ABA, 15 points, 8.5 rebounds, allstar)
Alton Lister (10 points, 8 rebounds, 2.2 blocks)
Team B:
Gary Payton (22 points, 9 assists, 2.5 steals, allstar)
Lester Connor (10 points, 5 assists, 2 steals)
Brent Barry (12 points, 5.5 assists, .425 3 point shooting)
Steve Johnson (15 points, 6 rebounds, .600 shooting, allstar)
AC Green (13 points, 9 rebounds, 1,192 straight games, allstar)
Team C:
Brevin Knight (10 pts, 8 ast, 2 stl)
Josh Childress (11 pts, 6 reb, .550 fg%)
George Yardley (24 pts, 10 reb, HOF)
Jim Pollard (15 pts, 9 reb, 3.5 assists, HOF)
Rich Kelley (12 pts, 10 reb, 3.5 assists)
Team D:
Terrell Brandon (19 points, 8 assists, 2 steals, allstar)
Steve "Snapper" Jones (ABA, 20 pts, .400 3 point shooting, allstar)
Jim Barnett (16 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists)
Greg Ballard (18 points, 7.5 rebounds, only 1.5 turnovers)
Blair Rasmussen (12.5 points, 6 rebounds)
Team E:
Nate Robinson (11 points, 3 rebounds, 3 assists)
Brandon Roy (18 points, 4.5 rebounds, 5.5 assists, allstar)
Detlef Schrempf (19 points, 9 rebounds, 4.5 assists, allstar)
James Edwards (16 points, 7.5 rebounds, made playoffs with 7 teams)
Steve Hawes (12 points, 8 rebounds)
Team A: Great backcourt, Scott was very underrated and his ballhandling and outside shot make him a nice complement to Lever. Caldwell was a very good wing defender and slasher with no range on his shot. Inside, however not so hot. Becker wasn't that impressive (surprised he made all-star after 68 when ABA was really weak) -- a tweener forward who played inside and was a bit on the dirty side; combine him with Lister, who played D but probably committed more fouls per minute than any legit player in history and you better have a deep bench, they were both hackers. Otherwise good team but no one dominates, playoff team but not title contender.
Team B Payton and AC Green are a solid foundation. Barry and Lester the Molester are more 3rd guard types though Barry always looked good. Steve Johnson was Eddie Curry with a decent attitude and less athleticism. Good inside scorer who gave it back on defense and rebounding. Probably a less than .500 team in today's NBA on normal years though if you took everyone's peak, Payton might carry them further.
Team C Yardley and Pollard are real early NBA, both probably have games that would translate but I didn't see them and am not sure how well. Knight and Childress are good roleplayers, Childress might be more but hasn't been yet. Rich Kelley was the kind of guy you use until you can draft a good center. Weak team, probably lottery.
Team D: Another team with an explosive PG and weak inside. Steve Jones was a solid 2-3 type who could play but not dominant; Barnett was a 3rd guard. Ballard was a hardworking decently skilled three without the footspeed to star or play defense. Rasmussen was another backup center playing out of need. Lottery team.
Team E: Not a bad team. Terrific do it all wings, Edwards was a good inside scorer, that's it. Hawes solid defense, no offense. Robinson isn't a starter to this point in his career and adds little (no pun intended). Competitive with team A.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Red Robot
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The question was, "which pac-10 school could field the best all-time team in the pros". Each of the teams in the comparison was formed of players from one University. UCLA is the best, followed by California and Arizona in some order. Washington State is the worst (Craig Ehlo, James Donaldson, nothing else). USC was left out to trim the comparison to 5 teams. The rest are:
A (Arizona State)
B (Oregon State)
E (Washington)
D (Oregon)
C (Stanford)
That order seems about right to me. It's also what you'd get if you averaged the responses in this thread. This is almost how I had them ranked before I posted, except that I had Oregon State as the top team. I think my opinion was probably colored by familiarity with those players. It's the only team where I've seen all five play. After thinking about the responses, I'd put them about even with Washington for second-best.
Washington and Arizona State are better put together as teams and have players that complement each other. Oregon State would be talented but dysfunctional. Oregon would really struggle at defense. Stanford relies on guys who played a very different game.
(The other party in the argument thought it went A-Arizona, E-Washington, C-Stanford, B-Oregon State, D-Oregon.)
A (Arizona State)
B (Oregon State)
E (Washington)
D (Oregon)
C (Stanford)
That order seems about right to me. It's also what you'd get if you averaged the responses in this thread. This is almost how I had them ranked before I posted, except that I had Oregon State as the top team. I think my opinion was probably colored by familiarity with those players. It's the only team where I've seen all five play. After thinking about the responses, I'd put them about even with Washington for second-best.
Washington and Arizona State are better put together as teams and have players that complement each other. Oregon State would be talented but dysfunctional. Oregon would really struggle at defense. Stanford relies on guys who played a very different game.
(The other party in the argument thought it went A-Arizona, E-Washington, C-Stanford, B-Oregon State, D-Oregon.)
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penbeast0
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Be fun to put this together for the all-time great basketball schools . . . UCLA, Kansas, North Carolina, Duke, and . . . ? (team that has been at or near the top of the basketball world for 25+ years)
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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crkone
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penbeast0 wrote:Be fun to put this together for the all-time great basketball schools . . . UCLA, Kansas, North Carolina, Duke, and . . . ? (team that has been at or near the top of the basketball world for 25+ years)
I would like to see it with players that played all four years too. The best senior squad teams.
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bluestang302
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Wake Forest would be a great option that some might not think of but look at this team:
G - Mugsy Bogues
G - Chris Paul
F - Josh Howard
F - Rodney Rogers
C - Tim Duncan
A little odd positioning wise, but I think it'd be hard to find a better active three-some than Paul-Duncan-Howard. Not much in terms of other options though: Frank Johnson, Danny Young, Len Chappell, Delaney Rudd, Darius Songalia
Utah isn't too bad:
G - Andre Miller
G - Mike Newlin
F - Keith Van Horn
F - Tom Chambers
C - Andrew Bogut
Arkansas:
Check out this stifling backcourt defense:
Guards - Alvin Robertson, Sidney Moncrief, Darrell Walker
Small Forwards - Joe Johnson, Ronnie Brewer
Power Forward - Corliss Williamson
Center - Joe Kleine, Andrew Lang, Oliver Miller
Xavier and Clemson could have an All-Forward Game
Clemson has produced almost all frontcourt guys: Larry Nance, Horace Grant, Elden Campbell, Dale Davis, Tree Rollins, Sharone Wright
Now Xavier gets alot of pub for doing the same: David West, Brian Grant, Tyrone Hill, Aaron Williams, Derek Strong, and James Posey
Reminds of the run of Georgia Tech point guards:
Mark Price, Kenny Anderson, Jon Barry, Travis Best, Stephon Marbury, Jarrett Jack
G - Mugsy Bogues
G - Chris Paul
F - Josh Howard
F - Rodney Rogers
C - Tim Duncan
A little odd positioning wise, but I think it'd be hard to find a better active three-some than Paul-Duncan-Howard. Not much in terms of other options though: Frank Johnson, Danny Young, Len Chappell, Delaney Rudd, Darius Songalia
Utah isn't too bad:
G - Andre Miller
G - Mike Newlin
F - Keith Van Horn
F - Tom Chambers
C - Andrew Bogut
Arkansas:
Check out this stifling backcourt defense:
Guards - Alvin Robertson, Sidney Moncrief, Darrell Walker
Small Forwards - Joe Johnson, Ronnie Brewer
Power Forward - Corliss Williamson
Center - Joe Kleine, Andrew Lang, Oliver Miller
Xavier and Clemson could have an All-Forward Game
Clemson has produced almost all frontcourt guys: Larry Nance, Horace Grant, Elden Campbell, Dale Davis, Tree Rollins, Sharone Wright
Now Xavier gets alot of pub for doing the same: David West, Brian Grant, Tyrone Hill, Aaron Williams, Derek Strong, and James Posey
Reminds of the run of Georgia Tech point guards:
Mark Price, Kenny Anderson, Jon Barry, Travis Best, Stephon Marbury, Jarrett Jack
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IndyPacers67
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netsforever
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Team A:
Fat Lever (19 points, 8 assists, 2.5 steals, allstar)
Byron Scott (20 points, .410 3 point shooting, 3 rings)
Joe Caldwell (21 points, 6 rebounds, 4 assists, allstar)
Art Becker (ABA, 15 points, 8.5 rebounds, allstar)
Alton Lister (10 points, 8 rebounds, 2.2 blocks)
Team E:
Nate Robinson (11 points, 3 rebounds, 3 assists)
Brandon Roy (18 points, 4.5 rebounds, 5.5 assists, allstar)
Detlef Schrempf (19 points, 9 rebounds, 4.5 assists, allstar)
James Edwards (16 points, 7.5 rebounds, made playoffs with 7 teams)
Steve Hawes (12 points, 8 rebounds)
Team B:
Gary Payton (22 points, 9 assists, 2.5 steals, allstar)
Lester Connor (10 points, 5 assists, 2 steals)
Brent Barry (12 points, 5.5 assists, .425 3 point shooting)
Steve Johnson (15 points, 6 rebounds, .600 shooting, allstar)
AC Green (13 points, 9 rebounds, 1,192 straight games, allstar)
Team D:
Terrell Brandon (19 points, 8 assists, 2 steals, allstar)
Steve "Snapper" Jones (ABA, 20 pts, .400 3 point shooting, allstar)
Jim Barnett (16 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists)
Greg Ballard (18 points, 7.5 rebounds, only 1.5 turnovers)
Blair Rasmussen (12.5 points, 6 rebounds)
Team C:
Brevin Knight (10 pts, 8 ast, 2 stl)
Josh Childress (11 pts, 6 reb, .550 fg%)
George Yardley (24 pts, 10 reb, HOF)
Jim Pollard (15 pts, 9 reb, 3.5 assists, HOF)
Rich Kelley (12 pts, 10 reb, 3.5 assists)
Fat Lever (19 points, 8 assists, 2.5 steals, allstar)
Byron Scott (20 points, .410 3 point shooting, 3 rings)
Joe Caldwell (21 points, 6 rebounds, 4 assists, allstar)
Art Becker (ABA, 15 points, 8.5 rebounds, allstar)
Alton Lister (10 points, 8 rebounds, 2.2 blocks)
Team E:
Nate Robinson (11 points, 3 rebounds, 3 assists)
Brandon Roy (18 points, 4.5 rebounds, 5.5 assists, allstar)
Detlef Schrempf (19 points, 9 rebounds, 4.5 assists, allstar)
James Edwards (16 points, 7.5 rebounds, made playoffs with 7 teams)
Steve Hawes (12 points, 8 rebounds)
Team B:
Gary Payton (22 points, 9 assists, 2.5 steals, allstar)
Lester Connor (10 points, 5 assists, 2 steals)
Brent Barry (12 points, 5.5 assists, .425 3 point shooting)
Steve Johnson (15 points, 6 rebounds, .600 shooting, allstar)
AC Green (13 points, 9 rebounds, 1,192 straight games, allstar)
Team D:
Terrell Brandon (19 points, 8 assists, 2 steals, allstar)
Steve "Snapper" Jones (ABA, 20 pts, .400 3 point shooting, allstar)
Jim Barnett (16 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists)
Greg Ballard (18 points, 7.5 rebounds, only 1.5 turnovers)
Blair Rasmussen (12.5 points, 6 rebounds)
Team C:
Brevin Knight (10 pts, 8 ast, 2 stl)
Josh Childress (11 pts, 6 reb, .550 fg%)
George Yardley (24 pts, 10 reb, HOF)
Jim Pollard (15 pts, 9 reb, 3.5 assists, HOF)
Rich Kelley (12 pts, 10 reb, 3.5 assists)