One employee should never take the blame...

[parson]

... for a franchise's failures.

It's a sad day that Billy Knight has resigned.

Many of you are cheering his leaving, as if anyone can do a better job. But guys, we could have kept Knight and Woodson, added more management talent to support them and given something special to our franchise, namely a reputation. We could have begun to establish what is meant by Atlanta Hawks Basketball.

We don't know that the next GM will be better; we don't have the kind of money we'd need to guarantee that. We DO know that Knight drafted conservatively and, mostly, well. Did anyone really expect CP to become a MVP candidate? Did anyone really expect the NCAA Defensive Player of the Year to NOT be at least a solid defensive big man for us?

We know Billy Knight and we should have hired help to augment his needs. We don't know what we're getting with the next guy.

I know that many of you are going to blast me (and this is a message board; that's what people do here). But Billy Knight put a team together that ran the Celtics off the court at times DURING THE PLAYOFFS. We are now athletic, long, talented and YOUNG.

Finally, I know that I've condemned Woodson; that's my right as a fan with playoff fever. But the fever's passed and I say we need to ADD help, not erase and experiment again.

[td00]

I am not interested in bashing anyone. I just think that the current state of the franchise warrants BK being gone.
He has had 6 years to put his stamp on this organization, and he has one playoff appearance against maybe the top team in basketball.
Were it not for the playoff run, this would not even be discussed.

IMO, BK did his job right 50% of the time.

Lets go back to some of his transactions, in no particular order:

1) He dealt Jason Terry and Alan Henderson for Antoine Walker and Tony Delk. I was all for the deal being a blind UK fan, but it didn't translate to success here in Atlanta. JT is still valuable as a SG and would probably look good playing with JJ.

Forget the results when Walker was traded; we got the rights to Gary Payton, who was past any productive level.

2) He picked up Al Harrington for Stephen Jackson. Trade was okay with the exception that Jackson has been a more clutch pro (but not without off-the-court issues). Harrington then gets moved for a draft pick. It was thought that BK held him too long and got nothing in return.

3) Who could forget the Rasheed trade? Rasheed said he wouldn't stay with us, so we had to get as much as possible.
I know we got Smoove in the deal eventually, but I think we could have garnered more, like a young Tayshaun Prince who was not yet playing quality minutes. I don't give the edge to us in that deal as we handed Detroit years of successful basketball. Thank BK for helping rebuild the Pistons and we still haven't matched their success.

Those are 3 examples of the earlier times with BK, and we know his draft record. IMO, no GM is going to get 6 years to get a team to 35 wins and allow him to keep his current position. Problem is, I am not sure if ASG would have pulled the trigger to get rid of him.

Moving Woody will also be interesting to watch. And I don't see either getting another leadership role in another organization.

[JoshB914]

I agree this cant all be put on BK. ASG needs to clean house in the personnel department imo.

[Master8492]

^^They got to 37 wins actually. And in the opinion of many Hawk fans and experts, they were heavily underachieved.

[tontoz]

@ this thread. It doesnt' take much brains to get some talent when you are picking top 6 every year and have plenty of cap space.

The only top 6 pick that BK didn't blow was horford. Paul is shredding the Spurs in the playoff and Deron was huge the the playoffs last year and is still playing also. Both of those teams sucked in 2005 and are elite teams now.

we are a 37 win team in a weak conference.

[JoshB914]

:rofl: @ this thread. It doesnt' take much brains to get some talent when you are picking top 6 every year and have plenty of cap space.

The only top 6 pick that BK didn't blow was horford. Paul is shredding the Spurs in the playoff and Deron was huge the the playoffs last year and is still playing also. Both of those teams sucked in 2005 and are elite teams now.

we are a 37 win team in a weak conference.

No kidding. And we lucked into Horford, BK should have messed that one up too but we got lucky with the ping pong balls.

[killbuckner]

We could have begun to establish what is meant by Atlanta Hawks Basketball.

I think BK already tried to do this when he gave the assistant coaches permission to talk to other teams then wouldn't let them go when they got offered jobs. BK was a terrible GM- the Hawks are a better franchise for letting him go.

[LL Cool Scott]

I couldn't possibly disagree more with this. I'm not going to bash you, because you argue your point really well. I would agree with you on one point, that Knight isn't the only one to blame. Knight was atrocious, but the ownership situation is an even worse problem.

[parson]

Guys, the richer and better-managed franchises don't put all their hopes in one man (okay, Auerbach is the exception that proves the rule).

Instead, they add management talent until they find a winning combination. We keep screaming to fire "that idiot" as if we know what we're talking about and as if any old joe off the street could manage better than our present "idiot."

I think the world of Donnie Walsh and he thinks the world of Billy Knight. Knight has talent, real talent that we can't understand because we're not qualified to. If you've spent any time at all as a professional in any capacity, surely you know that the untrained cannot understand the true professional's world. So I believe in seeking the opinions of professionals that I trust.

So, what is the result of Knight's leaving? We have an untouchable Mike Woodson, who cannot be fired and who dominates the franchise. If you think he's our basketball messiah, then all's well and good. Otherwise, our management team is now WEAKER, not stronger.

The next GM can't overrule Woodson; he'll need to be a team player, probably up from the ranks. And Woodson will be stretched thinner, reaching closer to, as the Peter Principle puts it, his "level of incompetence."

We've gone backwards as a franchise.

[tontoz]

Knight has talent, real talent that we can't understand because we're not qualified to. If you've spent any time at all as a professional in any capacity, surely you know that the untrained cannot understand the true professional's world.

You are definitely right that i don't understand a lot of Knight's moves. I don't understand Childress over Deng and Iggy. I don't understand Marvin over Paul/Deron when we had 15 forwards on the roster. I don't understand Shelden at all.

In the summer of '06 we had a tradeable free agent (harrington), the 5th pick at a ton of cap space and wound up with Speedy, Blo, Shelden and a top 10 protected 1st rounder. I suppose it is possible that he could have done worse but i don't see how.

[parson]

You are definitely right that i don't understand a lot of Knight's moves. I don't understand Childress over Deng and Iggy. I don't understand Marvin over Paul/Deron when we had 15 forwards on the roster. I don't understand Shelden at all.

Childress has uncanny instincts, is a good ball handler and, despite your protestations, is a good defender. I've got news for you about Chilz, he still might become what we saw in Shaun Livingston; he just might become a good PG with great length.

Deng was thought by many to be too stiff and many more worried that Iguodala would never learn to shoot. That's still not so bad of a choice.

Marvin over Paul/Deron was the slam dunk opinion of almost every authority. I thought Paul would never be able to stay healthy, for one. The muscle he's put on since college is amazing. I wanted Deron Williams, I admit, because of our needs, but getting the consensus best talent is hardly poor thinking.

Shelden Williams was the NCAA Defensive POTY at a position we desperately needed help at. Name a better big man in that draft after him.

I believe that Knight was onto something close to genius with his dream of a team of loooooong players, sucking up every rebound and clogging up the passing lanes. There were a few times this season when I saw that dream momentarily flash into reality, especially on defense. There were times when we were so killer on defense, yet so fast on offense that, if Magic Johnson were our PG, I believe we'd be the reincarnation of Laker Showtime.

A GM with a great dream; that's the best you can hope for. Then you surround him with help.

[NDaATL]

I couldn't possibly disagree more with this. I'm not going to bash you, because you argue your point really well. I would agree with you on one point, that Knight isn't the only one to blame. Knight was atrocious, but the ownership situation is an even worse problem.

That's exactly how I feel.

[tontoz]

Childress has uncanny instincts, is a good ball handler and, despite your protestations, is a good defender. I've got news for you about Chilz, he still might become what we saw in Shaun Livingston; he just might become a good PG with great length.

His 1.5 assists per game argue otherwise. He can't create for himself or anyone else. he is the most limited wing player i have ever seen.

Name another wing player in the NBA who plays at least 20 minutes and scores only 1.5 ppg on jumpers.

http://www.82games.com/0708/07ATL8A.HTM

Marvin over Paul/Deron was the slam dunk opinion of almost every authority

So who are these authorites? The mocks had Marvin at number 2 but that doesn't mean he was a slam dunk considering how many forwards we had. The gap between him and Paul/Deron wasn't that big, especially considering the pg is so much more important than a sf.

Shelden Williams was the NCAA Defensive POTY at a position we desperately needed help at. Name a better big man in that draft after him.

He also has a standing reach 4" shorter than Marvin and is well on his way to being a bust with Sactown as well. The fact that there weren't any other quality bigs available doesn't mean we had to draft him.

Just look at the draft the year before. We needed a pg but BK didn't draft one.

BK drafted based on the BPA theory in '05 and based on need in '06 and got it wrong both times. If he had just stuck to one theory or another he would have gotten at least one of the picks right.

I believe that Knight was onto something close to genius with his dream of a team of loooooong players, sucking up every rebound and clogging up the passing lanes.

I guess that explains our undersized frontcourt. We are one of the worst defensive rebounding teams in the league.

How exactly does Shelden fit into that "loooong player" theory? His standing reach is 4" shorter than Marvin.



[/quote]

[parson]

I don't argue with one measurement you bring up.

But did you ever watch Wes Unseld play defense?

[tontoz]

I don't argue with one measurement you bring up.

But did you ever watch Wes Unseld play defense?

Actually i grew up in Maryland and was a Bullets fan when they won the title. But that is neither here or there.


Lets look at your quote again.

I believe that Knight was onto something close to genius with his dream of a team of loooooong players,

How does Shelden fit into the genius' dream when his lack of length is his biggest shortcoming?

[parson]

Well, if you're quoting me, you might remember I said we drafted SW because we were desperate for a defensive big.

But, if you're going to quibble about measurements, do you remember SW's wingspan? Those ol' passing lanes would be shrunk with him, huh?

The defensive ability is my answer, but I mentioned the wingspan just for you.

[tontoz]

Well, if you're quoting me, you might remember I said we drafted SW because we were desperate for a defensive big.

But, if you're going to quibble about measurements, do you remember SW's wingspan? Those ol' passing lanes would be shrunk with him, huh?

The defensive ability is my answer, but I mentioned the wingspan just for you.

His lack of footspeed limits the effect if his wingspan since he can't cover much ground. And his lack of standing reach is the reason his defense hasn't traslated to the pros because guys can shoot over him routinely.

But the bottom line is that Shelden doesn't even remotely fit into the "genius dream".

[parson]

But the bottom line is that Shelden doesn't even remotely fit into the "genius dream".

I agree. And neither would a great 3 pt. shooter or a great defensive stopper at the point. These would be complimentary players.

I just said we needed a defensive big. Kind of like how the Lakers needed Kurt Rambis.

[tontoz]

-= original quote snipped =-


I agree. And neither would a great 3 pt. shooter or a great defensive stopper at the point. These would be complimentary players.

I just said we needed a defensive big. Kind of like how the Lakers needed Kurt Rambis.

Exactly

In 2006 he drafted on NEED. If he had done that in 2005 we wouldn't be sitting on 37 wins this year.

[LL Cool Scott]

Ok, now I'm going to bash you. You bring this on yourself when you say garbage like this.

I don't know where to begin...Josh Childress might end up as our point guard?!

Marvin Williams was "hardly poor thinking"?! He's reaching a point where he's closing in on Sam Bowie as one of the worst draft choices of all time.

Shelden Williams...(I have no words for anyone defending this pick, so I'll be nice to you and say nothing)

"Knight was on to something close to genius....if Magic Johnson were our point guard..." (again - no words, you're a clown for having logic like that float through your brain - IF MAGIC JOHNSON WERE OUR POINT GUARD - what's the important flaw in that logic, my friend?????)