Semi OT: Bobcats fire Bickerstaff

[steveb21]

So who's calling the shots in Charlotte? MJ and LB?

Jordan hasn't impressed me as a GM and we all know Larry's track record when he's calling the shots. It's got me wondering if we can fleece the Bobcats for some young talent by trading some vets who "play the right way".

[SendEm]

There is no doubt that Andre Miller and Reggie Evans hold tremendous value to a coach like LB. Like I said a while back LB is the most overrated coach ever in history of sports. He is just great at making business moves to further his career while not decreasing his worth. Like many of his past jobs, Charlotte comes with very few expectations and yet ANOTHER pay day for him. LB is the man with getting NBA pay days all of these years.

[bebopdeluxe]

You mean like the way the Sixers got "fleeced" of Stackhouse and Montross for Theo Ratliff and Aaron McKie?

Or how Seattle "fleeced" us of a 2nd round pick for Eric Snow?



The only deal that I can think of that plays to this "myth" that LB trades young players for "grizzled vets" was when we traded Tim Thomas for Tyrone Hill - with Hill, we went to the '01 finals...with Thomas, Milwaukee did jack.

George Lynch (another "play the right way" guy) was a FA - signed in 1999.

We traded young for old when we moved Theo for Deke, but it can certainly be argued that since that trade, "Cookie Monster" has been more productive in the NBA than Ratliff has.

Many of the player decisions that LB made when he was here were driven by trying to put a successful team around Allen Iverson (who was already here when he got here). To this day, the only success that AI has ever had was with the team that LB built around him - an unselfish, defense-first team - and while we did trade guys like Stackhouse and Thomas to put that team together, it's not like those guys became perennial All-Stars after they left.

And, if memory serves me correctly, LB didn't seem to have a problem giving young guys like Prince and Okur MAJOR minutes when he coached the Pistons to an NBA title.

So...can we PLEASE put some of these myths about LB to rest - once and for all?

[steveb21]

I was thinking more along the lines of how the Sixers "fleeced" Denver by trading George McGiness for Bobby Jones.

Don't get me wrong, LB is a great coach but it was Dumars who called the personell shots in Detroit and Croce who kept him in check in 2001. I won't bother to go into the series of stupid trades LB made after Croce left. IMHO, his tendency to try and "win now" makes him vulnerable to "fleecing".

[SendEm]

Larry Brown drafted Larry Hughes over Paul Pierce and Dirk Nowitzki when Tony Dileo and Billy King wanted those two players.

Larry Brown traded our first round picks away for players like Tony Kukoc, Glenn Robinson, and Vonteego Cummings.

Kenny Thomas and KVH were Larry Brown's doing right? Okay...

Didn't Kenny Thomas cost a 1st round pick?

[dbodner]

And, if memory serves me correctly, LB didn't seem to have a problem giving young guys like Prince and Okur MAJOR minutes when he coached the Pistons to an NBA title

Not to mention Danny Manning.

Larry Brown's been playing rookies since David Thompson averaged 26 ppg for him as a 22 year old in '76-'77. (That team also featured a 23 year old Gus Gerard scoring double digits).

People take a look at what he did here and try to paint that as his entire career.

From a personnel standpoint, there were two major problems I had with LB:
- Hughes over Pierce
- Trading a first round pick for Moiso

I could add in pairing Coleman with Deke, but that was desperation at that point, so I don't really hold it against him.

That's it. When I look at the lump sum of his moves, they were positive. We didn't always win talent wise (i.e. Stackhouse and Tim Thomas trades), but we almost always got better on the basketball court.

[dbodner]

Larry Brown traded our first round picks away for players like Tony Kukoc, Glenn Robinson, and Vonteego Cummings.

Not to nitpick, but we didn't trade a first round pick for Toni Kukoc.

Glenn Robinson was traded for AFTER Larry Brown left.

The KVH trade was a GREAT trade. Pairing KVH and Kenny Thomas worked incredibly well. That team finished with 48 wins, and went 27-15 down the stretch. Larry then left, Billy King panicked, traded KVH, and gave Kenny a huge contract.

Hm..who do I fault for that one?

[Salvistine24]

Larry Brown traded our first round picks away for players like Tony Kukoc, Glenn Robinson, and Vonteego Cummings.

Not to nitpick, but we didn't trade a first round pick for Toni Kukoc.

Glenn Robinson was traded for AFTER Larry Brown left.

The KVH trade was a GREAT trade. Pairing KVH and Kenny Thomas worked incredibly well. That team finished with 48 wins, and went 27-15 down the stretch. Larry then left, Billy King panicked, traded KVH, and gave Kenny a huge contract.

Hm..who do I fault for that one?

most people forget that season...we had lost to boston in the first round the year before and we were fluttering around .500 at the allstar break then caught fire...i think we won 10 in a row and were the hottest team in the east...i think we had a shot at the first seed until the final week when we dropped a few games but we beat the hornets easily in round 1 and then faced the up and coming pistons....

we lost in 6 but almost all the games were close, i remember lindsey hunter hitting a floater over coleman for the win in game 5 with us up 1 and the series tied at 2-2...i think that team couldve went to the finals too but in game 6 iverson shows up 20 mins before tipoff and vanhorn gets manhandled and we were done

[Skates]

The real knock on Larry Brown is that he changes his mind on players rapidly. Although difficult to prove, many stories circulate from all of his different stops in the NBA (except Detroit) stating that he constantly badgered his GMs to repeatedly make silly trades because players had fallen out of favor with him. Even in Philly where he had a ton of power he had BK and Croce and the NBA salary cap to keep him from going hog wild with such trades.

I think the concern in Charlotte should not be whether LB has some good ideas for trades, he always does, it should be whether there is somebody with power and sense enough to act as a "filter" for LB's ideas and to keep him under control. This is where MJ comes in. So far he has proven that he is a terrible personnel man on his own. Does he get better when teamed up with LB or does his own lack of sense for good and bad moves exacerbate LB's own impulsive tendencies? We will find out soon enough.

[SendEm]

I said a few months ago that Byron Scott is a better coach than LB. Many people scoffed...LB is the most overrated figure in pro sports. Decades of losing with no NBA championships with the built in excuse of "well he made every team better when he came on board." Meanwhile Rick Carlisle can't keep a job and Larry keeps getting hired after being renown for leaving teams when it gets to the point that he is taking on too much responsibility for the losing or mediocrity. Larry Brown owes Joe Dumars a percentage of his pay checks post Pistons.

[Sixerscan]

Rick Carlisle is pretty much a lock to be hired by the mavs.

I was thinking more along the lines of how the Sixers "fleeced" Denver by trading George McGiness for Bobby Jones.

that was like 30 years ago.

[dbodner]

Rick Carlisle is pretty much a lock to be hired by the mavs.

-= original quote snipped =-



that was like 30 years ago.

Not to mention Jones had well documented medical conditions that almost necessitated a trade away from Denver.

[LieCheatSteal]

I think this news is being a little overhyped here. Bickerstaff is part of the old regime. With MJ and now Brown on board, you know his time was running out. However, he is still a pretty respected guy around the league and, the NBA being a "old boys club" and all, I don't see him being unemployed for long. Maybe an advisor job or maybe even GM.

[freshie2]

LB also took the Sixers to the finals with a team he constructed around Iverson...he deserves his HOF seat by that feat alone. He's a win now coach that doesn't seem to value young talent, but NY was really his only failure, and I don't know how much of that was him vs Isaiah.

I didn't like what he did with his drafts, I didn't like the concept of continuing to cowtow to Iverson instead of dealing him, but he did get the Sixers to the finals.

[sec-106]

Wallace got DET over the hump.

Not Hyman Roth.