How good is Artest?

[Smills91]

Artest is a top 3 SF in the NBA, RIGHT NOW, no ifs ands ors buts about it. Smills has spoken.

[KM44]

smills, shut up, you are nothing special and you need to chill on the ego. K, so this is going to be my final list for who is better than artest:

1. Lebron (duh)
2. Carmelo (so what he's a pure scorer, he's good at it)
3. Butler (20 pts 7 boards, solid defender, 47% shooter)
4. Marion (15 pts 10 rbs, great defender, almost 50% shooting)
5. T Mac (just a great scorer, no debate)
6. Pierce (20 pts, 5 boards and assists, sub par defender)
7. Iguodala (20, 5 &5, just a straight up athlete)
8. Josh Smith (17, 8 and 3 blocks. and he has ups)
9. RON ARTEST (i would take any one of these guys above artest in a heartbeat)

So, this is where I make my point. Artest is not a top 3 SF, barely top 10 and debatably worse. You can analyze his game all you want, but all you can look at is his value. Why can't we trade him for Linas Kleiza and Najera, because a top 3 SF in the league would be accepted for that package. and the Knicks trade? We couldnt get Lee, a player that isn't even top 20 right now at PF. If Artest was top 3, that trade would have happened. So one on one, sure Artest could beat guys, but when it comes to value, which is what really matters, Artest is not top 3. KM44 has spoken (smills, you're an idiot)

[Smills91]

smills, shut up, you are nothing special and you need to chill on the ego. K, so this is going to be my final list for who is better than artest:

1. Lebron (duh)
2. Carmelo (so what he's a pure scorer, he's good at it)
3. Butler (20 pts 7 boards, solid defender, 47% shooter)
4. Marion (15 pts 10 rbs, great defender, almost 50% shooting)
5. T Mac (just a great scorer, no debate)
6. Pierce (20 pts, 5 boards and assists, sub par defender)
7. Iguodala (20, 5 &5, just a straight up athlete)
8. Josh Smith (17, 8 and 3 blocks. and he has ups)
9. RON ARTEST (i would take any one of these guys above artest in a heartbeat)

So, this is where I make my point. Artest is not a top 3 SF, barely top 10 and debatably worse. You can analyze his game all you want, but all you can look at is his value. Why can't we trade him for Linas Kleiza and Najera, because a top 3 SF in the league would be accepted for that package. and the Knicks trade? We couldnt get Lee, a player that isn't even top 20 right now at PF. If Artest was top 3, that trade would have happened. So one on one, sure Artest could beat guys, but when it comes to value, which is what really matters, Artest is not top 3. KM44 has spoken (smills, you're an idiot)

You should take your own advice.

Those bolded are the ONLY 3's clearly better than Ron. Ron is #3 at worst.

[BMiller52]

smills, shut up, you are nothing special and you need to chill on the ego.

I'm unbiased and I'll say the same thing about you

Seriously some of those guys don't even play SF. Like Josh Smith plays PF pretty exclusively. Marion spends the majority of his time at PF(even when he went to Miami) too. SO that would bump Ron up to atleast 7 even if you're right(which you're not, I've seen Ron make TMac his biatch pretty much, same with Iguodala).

[Smills91]

-= original quote snipped =-



I'm unbiased and I'll say the same thing about you

Seriously some of those guys don't even play SF. Like Josh Smith plays PF pretty exclusively. Marion spends the majority of his time at PF(even when he went to Miami) too. SO that would bump Ron up to atleast 7 even if you're right(which you're not, I've seen Ron make TMac his biatch pretty much, same with Iguodala).

We ALL have our biases.

[pillwenney]

KM, cool it.

And using trade value isn't really a valid argument. Ron's trade value would be much, much higher if there weren't concerns about his personality.

[BMiller52]

-= original quote snipped =-




We ALL have our biases.

I meant about the issue we're talking about. Of course I have my biases mainly against KObe and everything lakers... and against some other things

[Crimson King]

-= original quote snipped =-



I don't know what the resolution on your tv set is like, but I've seen these guys play in person SEVERAL times, and other than Josh Howard on his best night none are in the same class as Ron. Hedo, Wallace, and Richardson...please! Watch a game in person and you can see how Ron's speed, power, and balance are matched by only Lebron James (which I still don't think he's as strong, but is quicker). Seriously once Artest learns how to include people (for his own good AND for the good of others) he's going to be hard to stop. He already gets doubles in the post.

From that list, Prince and Gerald Wallace aren't above in terms of talent, but they know their role and they are very useful for their teams. If Artest is so much better, think if Detroit would swap Prince for Artest or if Charlotte would swap Wallace for Artest. Odom, Howard, Jefferson and Turkoglu are close in terms of talent.

For me better than Artest: James, Anthony, Pierce, Butler, Marion (not in talent, but in my team I'd take Marion over Artest) and McGrady if you call him a SF. Odom probably too.

Howard, Jefferson, Turkoglu aren't above, but close.

So I'd say between top 5 and top 10, probably somewhere in the middle.

[Wolfay]

Blind hatred towards Artest isn't a reason criticize his talent. Some of you say he isn't top 5, but none of you can up with a reason other than your sheer hatred of him.

Regardless about how you feel about him, if you don't see how crazy talented Artest is, then you shouldn't be posting.

[Maf]

it matters... He could be, could be, ranked as top 5 talent on SF in the league. (James, Anthony, Durant as long as he's not physically prepared to play PF, I'd say McGrady is more talented, too)

[a-rod]

Better than Artest:
LeBron James
Paul Pierce
Caron Butler
Shawn Marion
Carmelo Anthony

About the same level:
Richard Jefferson
Tayshaun Prince
Gerald Wallace
Hedo Turkoglu
Lamar Odom
Josh Howard

Could be better than Artest, but right now aren't:
Luol Deng
Danny Granger
Marvin Williams
Rudy Gay

Clearly you don't watch the games, You are probably using stats and thats a pretty terrible way to judge a player, you should be Judging players because you 'see them' rather than using stats, You got to watch every game for every player to tell me who is better......

[Crimson King]

^^^ Or maybe you don't watch the games of other players.

You got to watch every game for every player to tell me who is better......

Then for sure I can't have an opinion of any player, because of course I don't see every game of any player.

Some of you love Artest, that's fine. Simply I put it on another level than you do.

[a-rod]

^^^ Or maybe you don't watch the games of other players.

-= original quote snipped =-



Then for sure I can't have an opinion of any player, because of course I don't see every game of any player.

Some of you love Artest, that's fine. Simply I put it on another level than you do.

You know I didn't mean it that way, all I'm saying is watch the games, and If you would still be convinced you have a point and that you're 100% right, i will have to respect that.

[sackings916]

IMO Kings fans dont appreciate Artest's game and everything he does because we haven't been a successful team. If we were winning, most of you would realize the impact Artest has, especially offensively. The players some of you are listing (Gerald Wallace,Josh Smith,Marion,Igoudala,Prince) are not on the same level as Artest offensively. And im just talking OFFENSE, not even bringing up Artest's D and intangibles.

[KM44]

Ok, couple of things. I have seen my fair share of games where artest has not shown up, and hurt the team much more than help. I do not have a "blind hatred" for artest, I have a hatred for the way he plays the game. And the final thing is OF COURSE his value in some way factors into how good he is. Most of you are saying that his personality issues off the court dont matter, so why do you think that it matters in his overall value? I am just sick of hearing kings fans bitch and moan about how bad their team is when their "best player" is not even that good. If he was that good, we would be much better! I recently watched the kings/lakers series from 2002, and Chris Webber was our best player, easily. If artest is supposed to be that guy, he is grossly overrated, because webber did so much more for the kings just in that series than artest has done since coming to sacramento. Plain and simple, artest is not as good as you think he is, and it has to be realized that one on one talent does not correlate to overall skill. It comes down to what his value is to a team, and Artest is not one of the best, nor is he even positive for the sacramento kings.

ps: marion, smith and tmac are generalizations towards their body types and previous times they have played in the NBA. I realize that they are not always 100% SF, but neither is artest.

[KM44]

I forgot one thing, zar, thank you very much for being a part of this topic. you seem to be the only one looking at this from an oversight perspective

[sackings916]

Ok, couple of things. I have seen my fair share of games where artest has not shown up, and hurt the team much more than help. I do not have a "blind hatred" for artest, I have a hatred for the way he plays the game. And the final thing is OF COURSE his value in some way factors into how good he is. Most of you are saying that his personality issues off the court dont matter, so why do you think that it matters in his overall value? I am just sick of hearing kings fans bitch and moan about how bad their team is when their "best player" is not even that good. If he was that good, we would be much better! I recently watched the kings/lakers series from 2002, and Chris Webber was our best player, easily. If artest is supposed to be that guy, he is grossly overrated, because webber did so much more for the kings just in that series than artest has done since coming to sacramento. Plain and simple, artest is not as good as you think he is, and it has to be realized that one on one talent does not correlate to overall skill. It comes down to what his value is to a team, and Artest is not one of the best, nor is he even positive for the sacramento kings.

ps: marion, smith and tmac are generalizations towards their body types and previous times they have played in the NBA. I realize that they are not always 100% SF, but neither is artest.

Ignorant post. You are severely underrating Artest's offensive skills. One on one play is a very important skill when talking about a star player. You need a player that cant be stopped with single coverage and will draw double teams. NO sf in the league can guard Artest in the post, and he can take you outside with his 38% 3 point %. Having your wing or 3 be unstoppable in the post is a unique skill that is very rare for a team to have. If our frontcourt was better defensively and on the boards we'd be very close to contending right now with Artest and Martin. You're bias against Artest is disgusting, and you dont appreciate his impact on the game at all.

Also, Artest is a very different player right now than what he was when he first came to the Kings. He's about 25 pounds lighter, and has a much better shot selection. Kings brass obviously talked to Artest and the whole "blackhole" thing is completely overblown and more talking about the Artest from 3 or so years ago.

[Cruel_Ruin]

Yeah, looking at the lists, I think I'd place him maybe like tied for 3rd with Butler...maybe 4th. But I'd say Lebron is the only person that is really clearly ahead of anyone.

Another thing with Melo is that when you look at his stats, you have to remember that the Nuggets play at an absolutely frenetic pace, which inflates Melo's stats. Not saying that he's not a step above Ron with scoring--he is, but the rebounding disparity isn't nearly as big as it looks. Right now, I think I would definitely go with Ron.

You also look at Melo and that he plays with ANOTHER high volume guy in Iverson; he was a 30 ppg player without Iverson. So his stats are also skewed against him in that way. Artest, on the other hand, is the high volume guy on our team, especially after Bibby left.

I also look at Carmelo as a gamebreaker in the post, which is makes him more valuable by default. Especially with the way perimeter defense has diminshed in value in light of the handchecking rule.

[Cruel_Ruin]

Blind hatred towards Artest isn't a reason criticize his talent. Some of you say he isn't top 5, but none of you can up with a reason other than your sheer hatred of him.

Regardless about how you feel about him, if you don't see how crazy talented Artest is, then you shouldn't be posting.

So saying Carmelo F. Anthony is better than Artest is "blind hatred"? Give me a break.

[chriswebb86]

Honestly, the only small forward in the league that is way way better then Ron is LBJ. The rest you could prove one way or another that Artest is better or not better. At this point I have to say Artest is the second best small forward in the league. The last half of this season he went to another level. He started playing like someone who has an agenda in mind. I am really looking forward to how he improves over the summer. Like some of you have said when he focuses on defense the offense comes to him and he is a real treat. When he focuses he has a lot of great nights but even more bad nights. I am exited about the future with him, Martin, Cisco, and Hawes. I think we have a soild foundation to be a team that can compete with the best of them.