Has Kobe surpassed West?

Kosta · Post #1 » by **Kosta** » Sat May 10, 2008 7:41 pm

Pretty self explanatory...

And does he have a legit shot of being a top 8-10 player all-time by the end of his career?

wigglestrue · Post #2 » by **wigglestrue** » Sat May 10, 2008 7:48 pm

No, not yet.

But I've come around to thinking that it's possible he might.

Myth_Breaker · Post #3 » by **Myth_Breaker** » Sat May 10, 2008 7:49 pm

Kosta wrote:Pretty self explanatory...

And does he have a legit shot of being a top 8-10 player all-time by the end of his career?

To both questions: not until he leads the Lakers to at least 2 championships.

kooldude · Post #4 » by **kooldude** » Sat May 10, 2008 7:55 pm

Myth_Breaker wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

To both questions: not until he leads the Lakers to at least 2 championships.

but West hasn't done that once. He had horrible efficiency in '72.

wigglestrue · Post #5 » by **wigglestrue** » Sat May 10, 2008 7:57 pm

kooldude wrote:but West hasn't done that once. He had horrible efficiency in '72.

What???

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... tje01.html

kooldude · Post #6 » by **kooldude** » Sat May 10, 2008 8:03 pm

wigglestrue wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

What???

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... tje01.html

well, look at his efficiency in the '72 playoffs: 37.6%

And Wilt won that Finals MVP. I think Wilt was more important than West.

ronnymac2 · Post #7 » by **ronnymac2** » Sat May 10, 2008 8:06 pm

kooldude wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

but West hasn't done that once. He had horrible efficiency in '72.

that statement is wrong. He was incredibly efficient that season. if ur talking about the finals tho, then ur rite. that was ironically west's worst performance in a finals.

game 1: 3/15 12 points
game 2: 6/21 15 points
game 3: 10/28 21 points
game 4: 9/25 28 points
game 5: 10/28 23 points

it was easy to give wilt the mvp for that finals lol

ronnymac2 · Post #8 » by **ronnymac2** » Sat May 10, 2008 8:08 pm

ahh damit....my post has no point now haha

Myth_Breaker · Post #9 » by **Myth_Breaker** » Sat May 10, 2008 8:09 pm

kooldude wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

well, look at his efficiency in the '72 playoffs: 37.6%

And Wilt won that Finals MVP. I think Wilt was more important than West.

Yes, Wilt was more important. But West was very close: and in 1972 was well past his prime, so it's not a good basis for judging him (see 1965 or 1969 playoffs!) And it's not only about championship runs (even though you'll say they're overall most important). Taking into account all Jerry's legendary feats, I've come to the conclusion that the only achievement that could decidedly put Kobe over him are 2 more rings won as a 1st option for the Lakers.

Kosta · Post #10 » by **Kosta** » Sat May 10, 2008 8:17 pm

I think it's close right now.

Kobe is 29, if he continues his current production for the next 4-5 seasons and wins 1 more chip, I think it's undeniable he surpasses West. If he were to win 2 more chips as a 1 option and continued this production for 5+ seasons, we start talking of him moving well into the top 10...

He's well on pace...

kooldude · Post #11 » by **kooldude** » Sat May 10, 2008 8:17 pm

Myth_Breaker wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Yes, Wilt was more important. But West was very close: and in 1972 was well past his prime, so it's not a good basis for judging him (see 1965 or 1969 playoffs!) And it's not only about championship runs (even though you'll say they're overall most important). Taking into account all Jerry's legendary feats, I've come to the conclusion that the only achievement that could decidedly put Kobe over him are 2 more rings won as a 1st option for the Lakers.

What are these feats that West has done that Kobe hasn't?

West's PER in '72 was higher than his career avg PER and he still made All-NBA 1st team. So I don't think he was that far from his prime. He even led the league in assists in '72.

Point forward · Post #12 » by **Point forward** » Sat May 10, 2008 8:42 pm

As a player, he has a good chance. But as a Laker, he has to become GM and lead the Lakers to about 4-5 championships to catch The Logo.

Myth_Breaker · Post #13 » by **Myth_Breaker** » Sat May 10, 2008 8:42 pm

Kosta wrote:I think it's close right now.

Kobe is 29, if he continues his current production for the next 4-5 seasons and wins 1 more chip, I think it's undeniable he surpasses West. If he were to win 2 more chips as a 1 option and continued this production for 5+ seasons, we start talking of him moving well into the top 10...

He's well on pace...

Yep, Kobe's on pace. Though to me 2 rings more are necessary for him to overtake West, especially as West is in my Top 10 right now.

Myth_Breaker · Post #14 » by **Myth_Breaker** » Sat May 10, 2008 8:49 pm

kooldude wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

What are these feats that West has done that Kobe hasn't?

http://www.nba.com/history/players/west_summary.html

http://www.hoophall.com/halloffamers/bh...-west.html

Even assuming you have no b-ball knowledge from other sources - Google's not your friend?

West's PER in '72 was higher than his career avg PER and he still made All-NBA 1st team. So I don't think he was that far from his prime. He even led the league in assists in '72.

Oh yeah, so this little Hollinger's invention is supposed to be the ultimate measure to judge players' value. But even then I strongly recommend you to read more about this stat and especially why it's incomplete as to older players... Also please give me reasons why PER should override our common sense which says that players approaching the end of their careers "usually" are not in their respective primes...

Kosta · Post #15 » by **Kosta** » Sat May 10, 2008 8:54 pm

Myth_Breaker wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Yep, Kobe's on pace. Though to me 2 rings more are necessary for him to overtake West, especially as West is in my Top 10 right now.

I don't think so, West was only part of one championship team. Kobe was an integral part of 3 championship teams. One more chip on his own and this kind of production for the next few seasons and he's got West beat. When I said well into top 10, I meant 6, 7, 8 range IF he were to win 2 more chips and continue this level of play for 5 + more seasons. What else would he need to do?

His resume at 29 speaks for itself...

1-time NBA MVP (2007-08)
10-time NBA All-Star
10-time All-NBA Selection
7-time All-Defensive Selection
3-time NBA Champion
2-time NBA Scoring Champion

And he probably should of had another MVP...

Myth_Breaker · Post #16 » by **Myth_Breaker** » Sat May 10, 2008 9:02 pm

[quote="Kosta"][/quote]

1) Numbers/awards are nothing without context and West faced better competition than Kobe as to both team and individual standpoint.

2) West played more important role in Lakers 1972 championship team than Kobe - in 2000-02 championship teams. Add multiple Finals appearances from Jerry's Lakers and you'll see why KB has no advantage even from this single point of view.

3) If we talk about head-to-head comparison, West was a better passer, ballhandler defender and long-range shooter, while Kobe - bigger and a better rebounder to boot. Both are comparable scorers and clutch players (though, frankly speaking, the Logo shot far more big shots than Bryant until now).

4) Anyway, your praising Kobe is quite obvious considering you are building around him in our All-Time League. ;-)

But please bear in mind that in my first league I was building around West-Baylor duo, which was less controversial than your Kobe-Baylor one (KB and Elgin are more similar to each other). And yet I lost in the first round... :cry:

Kosta · Post #17 » by **Kosta** » Sat May 10, 2008 9:13 pm

4) Anyway, your praising Kobe is quite obvious considering you are building around him in our All-Time League. But please bear in mind that in my first league I was building around West-Baylor duo, which was less controversial than your Kobe-Baylor one (KB and Elgin are more similar to each other). And yet I lost in the first round...

How does this have anything to do with the comparison?

And as for your Baylor/West combo in the past all-time league that got bounced in the first round, there's more to a team than two players.

Anyways, what I said before I still stand by, don't bring the era argument into this...

If I was trying to sell Kobe here, why would I say he needs to do more to pass West? He's on pace and I think he will surpass West by a fair margin before it's all said and done..

big123 · Post #18 » by **big123** » Sat May 10, 2008 9:23 pm

If Kobe plays at this level for 3 or 4 more years and wins a title as the #1 option, then yes, he will pass West (as a player) of all-time.

West's entire career though (player and GM) is about as good as it gets. West is the face of the NBA logo and will always be more relevent to the Lakers franchise and the NBA. Kobe would have some work to do to surpass him in overall importance.

kooldude · Post #19 » by **kooldude** » Sat May 10, 2008 9:34 pm

Kobe compared to West's feats:

NBA Finals MVP: No, but West didn't win.
NBA Champion: check, check, check
All-NBA First Team selections: check
NBA All-Defensive Team selections: check
NBA All-Star selections: check
NBA All-Star MVP: check, check
NBA Scoring Leader: check, check

So Kobe hasn't won a Finals MVP. That's about it. West at age 29: 6 All-NBA 1st team. Kobe at age 29 (right now): same. Unless you have any reason to think Kobe will have a big drop off in production in the near future, what is Kobe lacking except Finals MVP?

Myth_Breaker wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Oh yeah, so this little Hollinger's invention is supposed to be the ultimate measure to judge players' value. But even then I strongly recommend you to read more about this stat and especially why it's incomplete as to older players... Also please give me reasons why PER should override our common sense which says that players approaching the end of their careers "usually" are not in their respective primes...

That's great that you feel that way except I'm not judging players, but one player's single season production relevant to his other seasons; I'm using the same criteria. But as you wish, I'll ignore PER and use his season stats:

PPG: 1 point off his career avg
Scoring efficiency: almost the same as his career
Assists: highest in his career; led the league

1st team All-NBA, 1st team All-D, 2nd in MVP voting, NBA All-Star Game MVP. The only dropoff I see is his rebounding.

Myth_Breaker · Post #20 » by **Myth_Breaker** » Sat May 10, 2008 9:39 pm

Kosta wrote:
4) Anyway, your praising Kobe is quite obvious considering you are building around him in our All-Time League. But please bear in mind that in my first league I was building around West-Baylor duo, which was less controversial than your Kobe-Baylor one (KB and Elgin are more similar to each other). And yet I lost in the first round...

How does this have anything to do with the comparison?

Quite a lot: and I reckon you know it perfectly well, even though you ignored my previous 3 points.

And as for your Baylor/West combo in the past all-time league that got bounced in the first round, there's more to a team than two players.

Yes, for instance the fact that my Mutombo's selection was far more better complement to West and Baylor than Cousy is to Kobe and Elgin...

Anyways, what I said before I still stand by, don't bring the era argument into this...

Why? Or you think that era arguments are irrelevant? Then I guess Baylor with his 0 MVPs is far below Nash with his 2 MVPs...

If I was trying to sell Kobe here, why would I say he needs to do more to pass West? He's on pace and I think he will surpass West by a fair margin before it's all said and done..

Don't play a fool, please: so many posters would select West over Kobe (in fact, I suppose it's true for majority of guys here), unlike you did. If then you out of the sudden create a topic where you try to argue that KB>West, your purpose couldn't be more transparent.