Official NBA Draft Lottery Discussion Thread II

[Wade2k6]

Looking at the boxscores of Rose' games, you can tell he frusterates the opposing PGs. He has (and has shown) potential to lock PGs up. With his athleticism and length I see no reason for that to change in the NBA, at all.


Look at boxscores of opposing teams PGs that Rose guarded:
-Georgetown (jessie sapp): 5 points, 1 assist on 2-8 shooting

-USC (Mayo): 16 points, 3 assists on 6-20 shooting

-Southern Miss (Jeremy Wise): 9 points, 3 assist on 3-11 shooting (Not big name player but averaged almost 19 ppg in the season)

-Tennesee(Raymar Smith & Chris Loften): Smith 5 points on 2-9 shooting, Loften 7 points 2 assists on 2-11 shooting

- Miss State (Barry Stewart): 4 points 1 assist on 1-12 shooting (averaged around 12 ppg on the year)

- Michigan State (drew neitzel): 6 points 7 assists on 2-8 shooting

- Texas (DJ Augustine): 16 points, 3 assists, 4 turnovers on 4-18 shooting

- UCLA (Collison): 2 points, 4 assists, 5 turnovers on 1-9 shooting

- Kansas (Russel Robinson, Sherron Collins)-
Collins: 11 points, 6 assists, 4 turnovers on 4-10 shooting
Robinson: 2 points, 1 assist, 3 turnovers on 1-1 shooting

[SmushedPennies]

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i agree that we need a pg to take the load off wade but j will was more than enough in 06...we need a pg but not neccesarily a derrick rose type, even damon jones is good enough, it can be found in FA

find me a 20/10 pf for the MLE though because i think thats what beasley is off the bat

There were still a lot of points during that season where JWill left a little to be desired, particularly on defense. And Damon Jones was not good enough, which is why everyone felt we so desperately needed a new point after that post-season.

I think Beasley has the capability of 20/10, but I'd be VERY surprised if it happened his first year.

With the current roster and lack of shooter its highly unlikely that Rose avg more that 6~7 assist his first season. Wade's number will go down but UD stats wont change much. Dorell should see his stats go up if we run more. If we run marion should be near 17~18 if were more half court expect his numbers to go down but rebounds to be constant.

Wade needs shooters to create spacing which we lacked last season, the season before he got hurt and rushed back to make it into the playoffs. The other season he won a championship being our "creator" Until Wade becomes comfortable/efficient as a spot up shooter you rob him of his abilities to create for others like our championship year and make him a less effective player. Thats why we won a championship with our pg basically turned into a spot up shooter but thats another topic.

I think a lot of you need to watch the 06 post-season run again. Williams was doing a large amount of the creating. If he was capable of doing more he would've.

[CB4MiamiHeat]

One more thing to think about. Rose is a good defender and is capable of locking the opposing PGs up everynight

There are 0 lockdown PGs in the league..somehow Rose is gonna come in and be the only lockdown PG in the league.

Cmon hes hailed as a good defender..remember Wade was Defensive Player of The Year in his Conference. Rose is quick, long arms, strong and athletic..has all the tools to be a great defender but hes not gonna shut down any PGs. The way the rules are your Center/ Power Forward mostly dictate how good your defense is.

[Wade2k6]

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There are 0 lockdown PGs in the league..somehow Rose is gonna come in and be the only lockdown PG in the league.

Cmon hes hailed as a good defender..remember Wade was Defensive Player of The Year in his Conference. Rose is quick, long arms, strong and athletic..has all the tools to be a great defender but hes not gonna shut down any PGs. The way the rules are your Center/ Power Forward mostly dictate how good your defense is.

I didn't mean literally. I meant compared to PGs that are considered "lockdown" or top defensive PGs in the game.

I don't expect Rose to absouletly shut the opposing PGs down, maybe i should of re-worded that a little bit.

[Wade2k6]

My posts weren't to say Rose is some amazing, phenominal defensive PG, but rather to show that his defensive progress and capabilities are greatly ahead of Beasleys. (although Beasley is a horse rebounding the ball)

I don't think people should overlook that either.

[CB4MiamiHeat]

The 2 Best players on each team left in the playoffs are in the Backcourt and Frontcourt. Is it a coincidence?

Kobe/Gasol
Parker/Duncan
Paul/West
Deron/Boozer
Lebron/ Z
Pierce/Garnett
Billups/Rasheed

All these teams can go in and out..run pick and roll..have good balance..good rebounding.

Some teams in the league where the 2 best players are swingmen are:

Golden State Warriors - Monta Ellis/Baron Davis
Washington Wizards - Gilbert Arenas/ Caron butler
Philadelphia 76ers - Andre Miller / Andre Iguoadala
New Jersey Nets - Vince Carter / Richard Jefferson
Chicago Bulls - Ben Gordon / Luol Deng
Denver Nuggets - Allen Iverson/ Carmelo Anthony
Sacramento Kings - Kevin Martin / Ron Artest

The Warriors,Nuggets, and Wizards are the only teams here over .500 .. and with Biedrins, Camby, and Haywood they all have good centers too. But theyre not championship contenders.

[miamiballer]

Bingo

[Wade2k6]

The 2 Best players on each team left in the playoffs are in the Backcourt and Frontcourt. Is it a coincidence?

Kobe/Gasol
Parker/Duncan
Paul/West
Deron/Boozer
Lebron/ Z
Pierce/Garnett
Billups/Rasheed

All these teams can go in and out..run pick and roll..have good balance..good rebounding.

Some teams in the league where the 2 best players are swingmen are:

Golden State Warriors - Monta Ellis/Baron Davis
Washington Wizards - Gilbert Arenas/ Caron butler
Philadelphia 76ers - Andre Miller / Andre Iguoadala
New Jersey Nets - Vince Carter / Richard Jefferson
Chicago Bulls - Ben Gordon / Luol Deng
Denver Nuggets - Allen Iverson/ Carmelo Anthony
Sacramento Kings - Kevin Martin / Ron Artest

The Warriors,Nuggets, and Wizards are the only teams here over .500 .. and with Biedrins, Camby, and Haywood they all have good centers too. But theyre not championship contenders.

Wade is considerably better then every player on that list. He is a top 5 player in this league when healthy, no player on that list of 2 swingmen are even considered top 10-12.

The last like 8 teams to win a title have been from TD, Shaq, or an incredibly meshed team. In 2 years when Duncan starts to decline, Shaq already has, and when the Pistons get older teams are going to have to change the way they play. Lets face it, there are no absouletely dominate post players except Duncan and maybe KG. The league is going in a totally different direction.

Of course by saying that, I fully realize a post presence is neccarsary to win in this league, just not a completely dominate one like some on this board think. If Marion leaves and Brand signs here, the team is fine. They would have a perfect inside-outside combo. People forget how much Wade completely dominated that finals series, with Shaq averaging 13 ppg. Shaq was a post presence, and that's all Wade needed. If you put a potential star PG next to Wade, fill in backup spots with role players that can play defense and shoot the ball, the team is right back where they need to be. I think after next season is the key, if they can get Brand or another post presence with the 15 million, they will be set.

[CB4MiamiHeat]

What other PF besides Brand is out there in free agency that we can afford? were putting all out future hoping this guy signs with us when he has plenty of options.

Beasley has just as much, if not more potential than Brand and was a more productive player in college. If hes there you have to take him. Theres plenty of Free Agent PGs out there. Maybe not good as Rose, but theres a reason why Riley has signed Damon Jones, Rafer Alston, Jason Williams..a great 3pt shooter is a great fit next to Wades drive and kick game.

[Wade2k6]

Losing that second round pick really hurts. Some mocks have players like Jason Thompson, Ryan Anderson, Ty Lawson, Wayne Ellington, Kosta Koufos falling...

I'd like to see the Heat make a trade and move up into the early second or late first if some of those players are available. Second round picks are often traded for cash or future 2nd round picks.

[MartyConlonJr]

Everyone that is pointing out the need for a post presence seems to think our draft pick is our only move. Everyone pointing out perimeter teams don't win also seems to forget that a combo of Wade and a player of Rose's potential have rarely been paired in the backcourt together, so comparisons to inferior backcourts is not an accurate assessment (again this is assuming Rose is the type of player we hope, like a Chris Paul type, maybe not even needing to reach that level). Pointing back in history for championship teams needing post players doesn't take into effect the change in rules which favour guards/perimeter players now as we watch Paul, Williams, Parker, Kobe, Lebron absolutely tear strips off opponents. Last two finals MVP's were Tony Parker, Dwyane Wade.

The same assumption that Rose supporters are making of his potential are the assumptions that Beasley supporters are making (20/10, post presence at a smaller size translates to the NBA)

I think even if Rose fails to meet expectation, he's still a good point guard in this league, giving us play on both sides of the ball and some level of threat creating off the dribble and Bball IQ wise. He has NBA PG size and skill.

If Beasley fails to meet expectation he gets burned by SF's, dominated by PF's due to size issues and we are back to square one. Succeed or not, theres still no PG out there in FA that I think can hang with the top of the league PGs in Paul, Williams, Tony Parker and the PG's who might come available will cost us 16-17 mill (Baron Davis etc) thats too much to be invested in a backcourt while being uncertain of our post players ability.

Teams don't let go of top level PG's as easily as they do post presences these days, Garnett, Gasol, Shaq (twice) were all traded this season, but I doubt you'll see Paul, Williams, Parker or even Nash get moved.

[Wade2k6]

Especially considering the way the NBA calls games now. They call alot of touch fouls on the perimeter, and bigmen are getting called for alot more touch fouls in the post. Rose & Wade would live at the line. Throw a low post presence in there like Brand to balance the team out and that is one hell of a trio.

A Rose-Wade-Wright-Marion-Haslem lineup against the quicker teams (philly,charlotte,hawks) and a Rose-Wade-Marion-Haslem-(whoever) lineup against the bigger more physical teams (Boston,Detriot). Add a shooter into that mix, and a defensive C and that's a pretty decent lineup

[Flash4thewin]

Well considering we had a max expiring contract and were unable to make any moves up to the trade deadline should speak volumes.

Come on Marty how can you say we'll if Rose fails to live up to expectations he'll still be serviceable but if Beasley he cant live up to expectations is a bust?

The last two finals MVP had elite post players that opened up the game for Parker and Wade. That argument makes the case for Beasley.

Assuming Rose lives up to the hype, he would need the ball in his hands to create, thus taking the ball out of Wades hands and striping him of ability to create shots for others making him less of a threat. They both need the ball in there hands to be effective, but theres only one ball to go around


"Teams don't let go of top level PG's as easily as they do post presences these days, Garnett, Gasol, Shaq (twice) were all traded this season, but I doubt you'll see Paul, Williams, Parker or even Nash get moved."

Kidd/Marbury/Ford/Bibby/Miller/Iverson/Baron/Harris were all traded not long ago. Do we add Nash who was not resigned to that list?


KG and Shaq were traded to start a rebuilding teams because of there age and salary. Pau was just a steal.

[CB4MiamiHeat]

The same assumption that Rose supporters are making of his potential are the assumptions that Beasley supporters are making (20/10, post presence at a smaller size translates to the NBA)

I think even if Rose fails to meet expectation, he's still a good point guard in this league, giving us play on both sides of the ball and some level of threat creating off the dribble and Bball IQ wise. He has NBA PG size and skill.

If Beasley fails to meet expectation he gets burned by SF's, dominated by PF's due to size issues and we are back to square one.

Why if they both fail expectations Beasley is worst off?? Rose could end up like Antonio Daniels and Beasley could end up like Joe Smith..im just throwing anything out there.

And for those that bring up Paul. I think Rose ending up like Chris Paul is about as likely as Michael Beasley ending up like Duncan...both comparisons are a little too optimistic.

In a more realistic scenario I see Beasley more as a David West/Carlos Boozer type of guy..where a slightly dissapointing scenario for him would be like Antwan Jamison.

Derrick Rose could be like a Baron Davis/Billups, where a slightly dissapointing scenario for him would be Devin Harris.

Anyways all this talk, might as well just wait till the lottery in less than a week.

[CoolD]

listen ill be happy to land either really but if we get the 1st pick, i cant see why we wouldnt take beasley

basically, he gives us dominant post scoring and rebounding (TWO major needs), hes 19 also and has A LOT of potential just like rose does...beasley is way more polished as a scorer and thus will likely have a kevin durant type influence...rose is awesome for a team w/o a dominant guard like seattle or NY but i would be happy just getting beasley and someone like duhon or JCN in FA

wade and beasley would be a nightmare on the pick and roll and marion would lock down the opposing teams best forward, be it pf or sf while beasley could defend the other position...we would instantly have incredible offense, rebounding, etc...beasley would shine hear as he doesnt have to be the man but would be like our boozer

Our rebounding will still suck with Blount in the game. Our defense too. Beasley doesn't address the fact he we have one of the worst defensive centers in the NBA.

With Beasley and Marion, you have two guys that could play SF/Pf.

Is like having another SG playing next to Wade. That is like having another SF/PF hybrid next to Marion. We would be overloading same type of players, when we need to fill the gaps, of pointguard and Center. Not SF, Pf hybrids.

If Beasley was a real big guy. Yes, this would be a no brainer, and I mean Shaq like big, not some guy everyone is hoping, he will grow when he comes in to the NBA, or being satisfied with having Antwan Jamison and Marion playing along each other.

[CoolD]

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i am basing my projections off of recent drafts...beasley was just as dominant a scorer as durant and has even more bulk and rebounding ability than kevin durant...look at durant's rookie yr....

chris paul, the best pg in the game, took a while before he finally put it all together and is not/will never be a dominant scorer which is what we need right now, esp from the frontcourt position

First you think Beasley will average like 35 points per game or something.

Then you think Beasley will have like Dwight Howard rebounding numbers.


You are going to be shocked how the NBA, and College everything changes.


And the fact Chris Paul has 21. 1 points, plus over 11 assist per game.

You don't think Chris Paul by dishing 11 assist is not a top notch scorer But you think Kevin Durant that takes like 20 shots to get 20 points is.

[CB4MiamiHeat]

Beasley and Marion can play both Forward positions..but theyre nothing alike in the way they play.

Wade and Beasley will work excellent together with the pick and roll, pick and pop...he can work in the midpost like West...with Beasleys range, Wade can even set him up with outside shots...his range is not college 3, its even a couple steps back, 21-22 feet. Marion complements them perfect with the way he plays off the ball..

[CoolD]

Well considering we had a max expiring contract and were unable to make any moves up to the trade deadline should speak volumes.

Come on Marty how can you say we'll if Rose fails to live up to expectations he'll still be serviceable but if Beasley he cant live up to expectations is a bust?

The last two finals MVP had elite post players that opened up the game for Parker and Wade. That argument makes the case for Beasley.

Assuming Rose lives up to the hype, he would need the ball in his hands to create, thus taking the ball out of Wades hands and striping him of ability to create shots for others making him less of a threat. They both need the ball in there hands to be effective, but theres only one ball to go around


"Teams don't let go of top level PG's as easily as they do post presences these days, Garnett, Gasol, Shaq (twice) were all traded this season, but I doubt you'll see Paul, Williams, Parker or even Nash get moved."

Kidd/Marbury/Ford/Bibby/Miller/Iverson/Baron/Harris were all traded not long ago. Do we add Nash who was not resigned to that list?


KG and Shaq were traded to start a rebuilding teams because of there age and salary. Pau was just a steal.

Are you sure about that. Wade would have way more dunks than ever. More fastbreak points than ever. I don't know how many times I've seen Wade running a wide open break, and he doesn't get a pretty easy outlet pass.

And didn't this season with Wade having no help, he led the league in turnovers by a nice margin, taking away Arenas that he played very little, thus implying Wade needs to stop creating for others, because he is not a great decision maker, for a full complete game. Wade will still get his time to do havoc, but at a much limited role, thus making him more dangerous because he will be less worn out of dribbling the ball forever for 40 minutes per game.

And Wade's defense will improve, because he will not have to create every single shot. And Rose will help Wade cover SG at times, because he is big enough to play SG's, thus Wade can concentrate on playing D, not creating every single shot in offense.

[CoolD]

Beasley and Marion can play both Forward positions..but theyre nothing alike in the way they play.

Wade and Beasley will work excellent together with the pick and roll, pick and pop...he can work in the midpost like West...with Beasleys range, Wade can even set him up with outside shots...his range is not college 3, its even a couple steps back, 21-22 feet. Marion complements them perfect with the way he plays off the ball..

Antwan Jamison doesn't play like Marion either, a Wade, Marion, and Antwan Jamison won't get you that far anyhow. Especially when you have Blount next to them.

[HIF]

Beasley shaggers and Rose shaggers.

Driving me crazy. It's as though you all know exactly how well your "champion" will do - which is fantastic and how badly the other guy will do.

You've stated the same things over and over and over again. Please shut up now. If beasley is as good as the Beasley cheerleaders say then we will be fantastic, if Rose is as good as the rose cheerleaders say - we will be fantastic.

Of course if either player is as average as the opposition's cheerleaders say we may as well up Ricky D.