Trading Kidd

[Pointguard01]

1. Ive made it known I think we should and want us to rebuild rather than try to compete, however, I also see about a 10% chance that Mark Cuban and Donnie Nelson would go that route despite the obviously evidence we have seen the past two years in the playoffs. So I am looking at what we can do to get good enough to compete with the Lakers, Hornets, Spurs and Jazz.

2. I know Carlisle has said nothing but good things about Jason Kidd and how he is excited to see him here, but I am going to drum that up to politically correct talk. Not that he doesn't mean that, but Im going to assume that besides Dirk, everyone on this roster (and this is the way it should be anways if we want to win) is available for the right package.

3. I know trading Jason Kidd is basically saying that we made a horrible trade in giving up Harris, but that is already known, and while I dont want our FO to offical admit it, I'd much rather them take the criticism and do whats best for the team, than give Kidd another chance simpely because when Kidd might be our best way to get better.



So with those things said, I think we have to trade Jason Kidd. I look at this roster and try to come up with a way to get better. With the trading assets of Josh Howard, Jerry Stackhouse (using his 2-mil guaenteed contract next offseason), Brandon Bass & the few teams that would be interested in Jason Terry. I just cant see us getting good enough to compete with those top 4 teams. Not with just trading them.

Basically I think using Jason Kidd and his 21 million dollar expiring contract is the best way to go about doing this. It might mean finding another PG or even going back to using Jason Terry at PG, but honestly, I dont think this team is good enough or can be good enough any other way. Ive gone through as many scenarios as possible and cant find any that work to make us in that top 4 group. There are plenty of trades that might work, but in general, I think this has to be the way to go if Dallas wants to be any good next season. Otherwise, I think we're hoping to be the 5th seed next season.

[Teffer10]

It sounds like we have similar feelings about the direction of the Mavs.

I would be all for a Kidd trade because it is very obvious to me that Kidd and Dirk are not a good fit. It may look that way because Dirk's number got better after the trade, but it just seemed to me that Dirk had more of a burden on his shoulders and was forced to do more because of Kidd's lack of scoring ability.

Carlisle says he wants to run with Kidd and all I can think of is Dirk and Damp and cringe and think how much of a contrast that will be. And conditioning is not going to be the answer with this bunch.

That is why I made some comments before that if we aren't going to rebuild, that we should either trade Kidd for another player that can play with Dirk, or trade Dirk for several players that are more suitable for Kidd's style. Either way, the future looks bad for the Mavs because I don't see either of them being traded.

I would consider trading Kidd for JO though or for LaFrentz and Outlaw if that was available.

Rebuilding is the obvious way to go if Cuban and Donnie could swallow their egos and admit that the Kidd trade and about a half dozen moves or lack of moves were horrible decisions on their part.

I absolutely hate the fact that I love the Mavs.

[A-Town Connection]

I might be the only one that feels this way, but if the Mavs dont rebuild(which is my first option) I would like to see what Kidd can do with the offense. I think if we can move Howard for Marion, Kidd can open up the offense and create easy baskets for everyone. I do agree that it might be tempting to trade Kidd for JO. If we did that, do we keep Terry at point?

[dirkforpres]

Thats ridiculous. Kidd was in Dallas for a little over 2 months and you already want the FO to trade him? You have to give him a chance to play under coach Carlisle's system. Look what happened with Harris once he got put under a new coach's system that actually gave him freedom... This is similar with what should happen next season with Kidd. Aside from Bass, Kidd, and Dirk, nobody is safe for next year IMO. I say if you really want to get rid of JKidd, you should wait until the trade deadline to actually say whether you want to get rid of JKidd or not, because his value will be higher then than it is now.[/quote]

[UDRIH14]

wtf is goin to touch kidds contract after bein expose in the west

[JES12]

If we rebuild, we need to go ALL the way, not half-ass it!

Trade 1
Dirk for Marion + #1 (or 2 pending on how the balls fall)

Trade 2
Shawn Marion for Quienten Richardson, Malik Rose & #5

Trade 3
Howard for Antoine Walker (expiring) & #4

Trade 4
Jason Terry + Erick Dampier for Ben Wallace, Damon Jones & #19

Trade 5
Jason Kidd for Raef Lafrentz, Steve Blake & #13

Buyout expirings of Walker, D. Jones & Lafrentz

Let Eddie Jones retire.

Heat pick--------PG-Rose
Wolves pick-----SG-Mayo
Blazer pick------SF-Batum
Already have----PF-Bass
Knicks pick-------C-Lopez
Cavalier pick-----C-Hibbert

New lineup
C - Lopez / Hibbert / Wallace
PF - Bass / Rose (exp)
SF - Batum / R. Terry
SG - Mayo / Wright / Richardson
PG - Rose / Blake (exp) / Barea

#1 pick in 2009.
Plenty of cap room to go after James, D. Williams, Granger, Bosh, etc in summer 2010.

[catalyst]

I knew when I saw that JES had responded to this thread that something big was up. It would be interesting to see the trade board's reaction to this. Rose and Wallace are the old men, and that is a running team right there. I guess Wallace could also back up Bass and d up.

Who is the guy on the trade board that does the off-season needs? He needs to see this. Maybe this year he could do 2 mavs offseasons. "Riding It Out" and "Blowing It Up". One good thing about this trade is that Cuban would get a little break on Lafrentz with the max payout if cut deal since it was the original Mavs contract that expires.

[Teffer10]

wtf is goin to touch kidds contract after bein expose in the west

21 Mil of cap relief.
Any team like that wants to relieve itself of some terrible contracts.
Something the Mavs should be trying to do.

[your_dallas_mavericks]

If we rebuild, we need to go ALL the way, not half-ass it!

Trade 1
Dirk for Marion + #1 (or 2 pending on how the balls fall)

Trade 2
Shawn Marion for Quienten Richardson, Malik Rose & #5

Trade 3
Howard for Antoine Walker (expiring) & #4

Trade 4
Jason Terry + Erick Dampier for Ben Wallace, Damon Jones & #19

Trade 5
Jason Kidd for Raef Lafrentz, Steve Blake & #13

Buyout expirings of Walker, D. Jones & Lafrentz

Let Eddie Jones retire.

Heat pick--------PG-Rose
Wolves pick-----SG-Mayo
Blazer pick------SF-Batum
Already have----PF-Bass
Knicks pick-------C-Lopez
Cavalier pick-----C-Hibbert

New lineup
C - Lopez / Hibbert / Wallace
PF - Bass / Rose (exp)
SF - Batum / R. Terry
SG - Mayo / Wright / Richardson
PG - Rose / Blake (exp) / Barea

#1 pick in 2009.
Plenty of cap room to go after James, D. Williams, Granger, Bosh, etc in summer 2010.

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant! The team would be awful in 2008-09, but everyone could see the talent and watch the growth... I would change one thing and that is drafting a PF rather than an extra center in case Bass bolts. That is something the Mavs would need to prepare for...

[Teffer10]

If we rebuild, we need to go ALL the way, not half-ass it!

Trade 1
Dirk for Marion + #1 (or 2 pending on how the balls fall)

Trade 2
Shawn Marion for Quienten Richardson, Malik Rose & #5

Trade 3
Howard for Antoine Walker (expiring) & #4

Trade 4
Jason Terry + Erick Dampier for Ben Wallace, Damon Jones & #19

Trade 5
Jason Kidd for Raef Lafrentz, Steve Blake & #13

Buyout expirings of Walker, D. Jones & Lafrentz

Let Eddie Jones retire.

Heat pick--------PG-Rose
Wolves pick-----SG-Mayo
Blazer pick------SF-Batum
Already have----PF-Bass
Knicks pick-------C-Lopez
Cavalier pick-----C-Hibbert

New lineup
C - Lopez / Hibbert / Wallace
PF - Bass / Rose (exp)
SF - Batum / R. Terry
SG - Mayo / Wright / Richardson
PG - Rose / Blake (exp) / Barea

#1 pick in 2009.
Plenty of cap room to go after James, D. Williams, Granger, Bosh, etc in summer 2010.

Very interesting idea and some of those might have a chance.

I still don't think Miami would give up the pick and Marion for Dirk. If Dirk was 27 or 28 I could see that happening but I think we'd have to give up a little more.

Maybe you could come up with some three ways that would give back one of the later draft picks to Miami or throw some combination of R. Terry, Wright, or Barea.

If the Mavs could get the first one to work the others might actually have a decent chance. Howard for Walker and the #4 might be a stretch though. Maybe Howard for the Buck's #7 and Mason might have a better chance but would change personnel a bit. We might need to give up more in the Portland trade as well because there isn't a lot of incentive unless they feel they are ready to win it all now. I think the would rather develop a player along with the rest of their youth.

This is a good idea and with some tweaking might actually work. I like it much better than attempting to win a championship with Dirk and Kidd.

I'd be happy with netting the 1, 4 or 5 (not necessarily both), and 13 with all of the cap relief. That would still give us a solid foundation to build on and give us multiple options in FA.

[Teffer10]

-= original quote snipped =-



Brilliant, absolutely brilliant! The team would be awful in 2008-09, but everyone could see the talent and watch the growth... I would change one thing and that is drafting a PF rather than an extra center in case Bass bolts. That is something the Mavs would need to prepare for...

If the Mavs are able to pull something like this off, they would have some cap space to pay him.
However, I do question those 2 centers. I think both of them have all of the makings of being a bust. If McGee is available at 13, I'd take the chance with him.

[A-Town Connection]

If we rebuild, we need to go ALL the way, not half-ass it!

Trade 1
Dirk for Marion + #1 (or 2 pending on how the balls fall)

Trade 2
Shawn Marion for Quienten Richardson, Malik Rose & #5

Trade 3
Howard for Antoine Walker (expiring) & #4

Trade 4
Jason Terry + Erick Dampier for Ben Wallace, Damon Jones & #19

Trade 5
Jason Kidd for Raef Lafrentz, Steve Blake & #13

Buyout expirings of Walker, D. Jones & Lafrentz

Let Eddie Jones retire.

Heat pick--------PG-Rose
Wolves pick-----SG-Mayo
Blazer pick------SF-Batum
Already have----PF-Bass
Knicks pick-------C-Lopez
Cavalier pick-----C-Hibbert

New lineup
C - Lopez / Hibbert / Wallace
PF - Bass / Rose (exp)
SF - Batum / R. Terry
SG - Mayo / Wright / Richardson
PG - Rose / Blake (exp) / Barea

#1 pick in 2009.
Plenty of cap room to go after James, D. Williams, Granger, Bosh, etc in summer 2010.

I agree with most of what you want to do. I think B. Lopez could be the bust. I actually think Robin is the safer pick much further down in the draft. Also, I love Rose, but I am still be big Beasley fan. I would love to see Mayo and Beasley with the inside outside combo. If we are looking at point guard, there are a few guys we could trade down for that could work on that team( D.J. Augustin, Ty Lawson).

[JES12]

Of course I don't expect everyone to like it. If the Cleveland deal happens 1st, we could send that pick (the one that selected Hibbert) to Miami, but if they want a higher pick like #5, I rather not assume Q-Rich's 2 year deal. They may give both, but require a Stack & Blount swap which is fine since Blount would be a better backup PF than Malik Rose in 2008-09 and Blount expires summer 2010 also. BTW, I left Stack off the original post, so below is the revised post.

The Minny one I had posted a few days back on a thread that was asking what Minny could get with the #4 pick and it did not recieve any negative responces, but I don't know if their owner (Taylor) would want someone admitting to pot use.

The Kidd to Portland trade was based off them trying to get Kidd away from NJ (when Dallas was after him) to mentor their players. He may be more accessable to them now. The 13 pick is not needed IMO if they give Rudy Fernandez.

But like PG01 said, rebuilding has less than a 10% chance of happening, but if they did do that, they need to go all out, not a Sacramento stretch.

If the Mavs are able to pull something like this off, they would have some cap space to pay him.
However, I do question those 2 centers. I think both of them have all of the makings of being a bust. If McGee is available at 13, I'd take the chance with him.

Agreed on Bass. Wallace, Blount & Q-Rich would contain $30.7 min in 2009-10 assuming no buyouts and the rest are on rookie contracts. Bass can easily be resigned and if he is getting the playing time, why would he bolt?

That's why I selected both centers instead of a center and a PF. Rolling the dice that one of them is not a bust. Draft express said best case scenarion on Lopez was "Chris Kaman Meets P.J. Brown" and worst case scenario was Brendan Haywood. Either would be fine with me. I think Hibbert may be a little Michael Olawakandi like, but he is at pick#19, not #1.

**Revised**
Trade 1
Dirk + Stack for Marion + Blount + #1 (or 2 pending on how the balls fall)

Trade 2
Shawn Marion for Quienten Richardson, Malik Rose & #5

Trade 3
Howard for Antoine Walker (expiring) & #4

Trade 4
Jason Terry + Erick Dampier for Ben Wallace, Damon Jones & #19

Trade 5
Jason Kidd for Raef Lafrentz, Steve Blake & #13

Let Eddie Jones retire.

Then sit down with Ben Wallace, Mark Blount, Quentin Richardson, Antoine Walker, Damon Jones, Raef Lafrentz and Malike Rose in a single team meeting to tell them all the direction we are heading and that any of them that would agree to a 50% buyout would be freed immediately. If at least 3 of them do not volunteer, I would start waiving players starting with Antoine Walker followed by all other 1 year contracts except Blake (whom would not be in the meeting). Richardson & Blount have ETO's 2009-10.


Heat pick--------PG-Rose
Wolves pick-----SG-Mayo
Blazer pick------SF-Batum
Already have----PF-Bass
Knicks pick-------C-Lopez
Cavalier pick-----C-Hibbert

New lineup
C - Lopez / Hibbert / Wallace
PF - Bass / Blount
SF - Batum / R. Terry
SG - Mayo / Wright / Richardson
PG - Rose / Blake (exp) / Barea

#1 pick in 2009.

Plenty of cap room to go after Lebron James, D. Williams, Granger, Bosh, etc in summer 2010.

[Teffer10]

-= original quote snipped =-





I agree with most of what you want to do. I think B. Lopez could be the bust. I actually think Robin is the safer pick much further down in the draft. Also, I love Rose, but I am still be big Beasley fan. I would love to see Mayo and Beasley with the inside outside combo. If we are looking at point guard, there are a few guys we could trade down for that could work on that team( D.J. Augustin, Ty Lawson).

I agree...I'd be leary about drafting Lopez that high. I'd rather have Rose because I have concerns about Beasley's character. Refusing to pay minor traffic tickets is nothing to be too concerned about, but what happens when this guy becomes a millionaire?

[Teffer10]

[quote="JES12"][/quote]

If the Mavs have this type of opportunity, they would be total idiots to turn it down.

Something tells me they aren't even considering the rebuild process so options like this are not even being considered.

Imagine what we will have to offer 3 years from now when we totally blow up this team. We will be lucky to get a mid-round pick for Dirk and a late rounder for Howard. Bass will be getting too old to build around and this team will have no youth whatsoever. Yes, we will have some cap space, but what FA will want to join the Mavs with no future ahead.

We will not be championship contenders until 2015 (at the earliest) if this team does not make a move now.

[Pointguard01]

I might be the only one that feels this way, but if the Mavs dont rebuild(which is my first option) I would like to see what Kidd can do with the offense. I think if we can move Howard for Marion, Kidd can open up the offense and create easy baskets for everyone. I do agree that it might be tempting to trade Kidd for JO. If we did that, do we keep Terry at point?

Terry at PG is fine with this team IMO. There are better distributing PGs in this league that would fit alongside Dirk, but they arent available (Paul, Nash, Willaims) and Kidd simpely doesnt work. Yes he puts Dirk in great position to score, but as soon as those double teams come, Kidd passes up way too many shoots and then by the time we swing the ball, the next player is forced to take a contested jumper.

Kidd shoot great %'s here, but that's because he also didnt take anything but open shots. He passed on way too many from what I could tell and it really killed the offense. It was almost like he was trying too much to be that pass-first PG and not shoot too much. But even so teams will always dare Kidd to beat us from the outside. We have to face it we are a 1v1 team and having Terry at the PG spot and getting only 4-5 APG is fine.

wtf is goin to touch kidds contract after bein expose in the west

A team wanting his expiring contract. Dallas would have to take on salary, and I know alot of us are kinda against that because we feel like if Dallas doesnt get it done in a year or two, we will start to rebuild, but honestly, Dirk has a good 3 years left in him. Maybe in 4-5 years he starts to decline but until then, Mark Cuban & Donnie Nelson are going to try and compete and not rebuild, so taking on the extra salary is not a big deal if it makes us better.

If we rebuild, we need to go ALL the way, not half-ass it!

Trade 1
Dirk for Marion + #1 (or 2 pending on how the balls fall)

Trade 2
Shawn Marion for Quienten Richardson, Malik Rose & #5

Trade 3
Howard for Antoine Walker (expiring) & #4

Trade 4
Jason Terry + Erick Dampier for Ben Wallace, Damon Jones & #19

Trade 5
Jason Kidd for Raef Lafrentz, Steve Blake & #13

Buyout expirings of Walker, D. Jones & Lafrentz

Let Eddie Jones retire.

Heat pick--------PG-Rose
Wolves pick-----SG-Mayo
Blazer pick------SF-Batum
Already have----PF-Bass
Knicks pick-------C-Lopez
Cavalier pick-----C-Hibbert

New lineup
C - Lopez / Hibbert / Wallace
PF - Bass / Rose (exp)
SF - Batum / R. Terry
SG - Mayo / Wright / Richardson
PG - Rose / Blake (exp) / Barea

Yes, 80% of this board wants us to rebuild, but this thread assumes Donnie Nelson and Mark Cuban arent going to do that, which again, 90% of that 80% knows that Dallas F.O. wont do it. Even so, having 6 draft picks in one draft is probably too many. Not that we would complian, but thats alot of developing....

Minny doesnt do that trade. They are better off staying really young and trying to rebuild than trade for Josh Howard and get better, but not good enough to make the playoffs. Howard is 28 and the rest of their core is closer to 23 yrs old. Plus, Minny already has Brewer at the SF and wants him to develop similarly to Howard.

The other trades are reaosnable, but again, its probably not happening.

[JES12]

^^^
That's why I placed that last line in there and never took on contracts longer then summer 2010. Never know who the busts will be and you need some young players to attract young FAs.

[Teffer10]

One other thing to think about concerning JES12's suggestion.

If we get all of these 1st round draft picks this season and 09 and clear cap space in the process, they will all still be under contract with low salaries when guys like Williams, James, Bosh and some others become FAs. This would be a perfect situation for the Mavs because Cuban could go all out to get a superstar like James and then would have the rights to sign the others when their contracts come up. Cuban may have a $150Mil payroll by then but who cares since we would most likely be the top team.

[Sid the Squid]

Once Nellie and Cuban get this lawsuit settled on June 23rd, then the two team can come to an agreement on the Baron for Kidd-Bass trade.

[Sid the Squid]

Make that Harrington-Davis for Kidd-Bass