Hakeem vs Shaq vs Duncan vs Bird vs Bill Russell

[kooldude]

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Kareem. Russell.

not that many, is there? Hakeem is part of that list.

[ronnymac2]

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not that many, is there? Hakeem is part of that list.

so is shaq.

[kooldude]

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so is shaq.

Shaq would carry his team for most of the game but is not "clutch".

[ronnymac2]

Well define clutch. cuz the way i see clutch is that the player steps his already great game up in the playoffs and comes up with big time performances when he needs to. shaq in in the playoffs did that, even in his orlando days. Based on my idea of what it means to be clutch, shaq, hakeem, russell, kareem, moses, walton, and wilt (check the 67 playoffs) did all of that as legendary centers.

[Myth_Breaker]

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Or it would if Frazier had been dominant on offense.

And if he HAD been dominant on offense, he probably would have been better than Magic, no? Like if instead of being a 19/6 guy, he'd been a 22/10 guy, with his defense...isn't that probably the best point guard of all time?

I've thought mainly about scoring: and here the difference between Frazier's 18,9 ppg career average at .490 FG% and Magic's 19,5 ppg at .520% is hardly a difference between being dominant or not. If you add passing, the balance shifts radically to Magic (Frazier's dimes/dominating the ball were limited by Knicks system of sharing the ball anyway), but even then you may easily argue that Clyde's advantage in defense is bigger than Johnson's advantage in offense.

What counters that (except the obvious fact that passing/creating is more important while comparing PGs than defense anyway)? First of all Magic's intangibles: his ability to take over the game when needed to even greater extent than in case of Frazier, his incomparable leadership (while in those Knicks it was Reed who was a leader), all these guys having career years next to him, virtual impossibility to find adequate defender to cover him... And intangibles also play important role when comparing Hakeem to other greats from the OP. Shaq didn't care about defense enough, but still - as it's been mentioned here - even in his worst seasons was great intimidator in the paint, simply due to his sheer size. Plus it was harder to find someone defending him well than even in case of Dream. Hence it's arguable whether Diesel's combined impact in offense and defense wasn't bigger than Hakeem's. In turn Bird - in addition to being almost Magic-level playmaker - had this legendary clutchness in offense (more legendary than even Hakeem's): it's the next important intangible. Another one: excellent Russell's leadership and defensive clutchness, his ability to secure a crucial block or rebound in deciding moments (again, to even greater extent than in Olajuwon's case). And so on. Basically all I wanted to say is that you can't simply decide here: X is dominant on both ends, so is certainly superior to Y.

Especially as determining domination is highly arbitrary.
But even if we all somehow agree when dominance starts... Explaining in more detail what I meant in Shaq-Hakeem comparison: let's simplify this and say that e.g. offensive and defensive dominance can be measured in IP (imaginary points) and in both cases real dominance starts after reaching 50 IP. Hakeem has 50 offensive IP and 55 defensive IP, so yes - is dominant on both ends. While Shaq - respectively 60 and 45. OMG: he's dominant on only one end! But so what since his overall impact on the game is just as great as Hakeem's?

[kooldude]

Well define clutch. cuz the way i see clutch is that the player steps his already great game up in the playoffs and comes up with big time performances when he needs to. shaq in in the playoffs did that, even in his orlando days. Based on my idea of what it means to be clutch, shaq, hakeem, russell, kareem, moses, walton, and wilt (check the 67 playoffs) did all of that as legendary centers.

IMO, clutch is when a player step it up, in the last few minutes of a close game. That's why players like Horry and Baron Davis are seen as clutch opposed to KG or Jason Kidd when the latter pair are superior players.

I don't think Shaq had the ability to be clutch due to his style and glaring weaknesses at FT line.

A player can step it up in the playoffs, that just means he's a great player that stepped it up. But I don't see a whole 48 minutes as "clutch" time.

[Harry Palmer]

Especially as determining domination is highly arbitrary.
But even if we all somehow agree when dominance starts... Explaining in more detail what I meant in Shaq-Hakeem comparison: let's simplify this and say that e.g. offensive and defensive dominance can be measured in IP (imaginary points) and in both cases real dominance starts after reaching 50 IP. Hakeem has 50 offensive IP and 55 defensive IP, so yes - is dominant on both ends. While Shaq - respectively 60 and 45. OMG: he's dominant on only one end! But so what since his overall impact on the game is just as great as Hakeem's?

Arbitrary or not, are you suggesting:

A) Shaq was a better relative offensive player than Hakeem was a defensive player?

B) Each holds the same margin of advantage over the other, Shaq on offense vs. Hakeem on defense?

I would say neither of these is anywhere near true.

[ronnymac2]

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IMO, clutch is when a player step it up, in the last few minutes of a close game. That's why players like Horry and Baron Davis are seen as clutch opposed to KG or Jason Kidd when the latter pair are superior players.

I don't think Shaq had the ability to be clutch due to his style and glaring weaknesses at FT line.

A player can step it up in the playoffs, that just means he's a great player that stepped it up. But I don't see a whole 48 minutes as "clutch" time.

Alrite, i understand what you mean. In defense of shaq tho, even with his glaring weakness at the line, he DID make them when they counted in the waning moments of a game. And he did make big plays to win games( blocking shots, and remember the rebound and dunk against yao in the 2004 1st round). I do agree tho that he was not relied upon to take game-winning shots. To me, the only center that was ever asked to do that was kareem, and also hakeem i guess.

I see how you differentiate clutch and from big-game performer though, so i understand your point.