How good is Artest?

[pillwenney]

Ok, couple of things. I have seen my fair share of games where artest has not shown up, and hurt the team much more than help. I do not have a "blind hatred" for artest, I have a hatred for the way he plays the game. And the final thing is OF COURSE his value in some way factors into how good he is. Most of you are saying that his personality issues off the court dont matter, so why do you think that it matters in his overall value? I am just sick of hearing kings fans bitch and moan about how bad their team is when their "best player" is not even that good. If he was that good, we would be much better! I recently watched the kings/lakers series from 2002, and Chris Webber was our best player, easily. If artest is supposed to be that guy, he is grossly overrated, because webber did so much more for the kings just in that series than artest has done since coming to sacramento. Plain and simple, artest is not as good as you think he is, and it has to be realized that one on one talent does not correlate to overall skill. It comes down to what his value is to a team, and Artest is not one of the best, nor is he even positive for the sacramento kings.

ps: marion, smith and tmac are generalizations towards their body types and previous times they have played in the NBA. I realize that they are not always 100% SF, but neither is artest.

No you haven't because that has never happened. Ron may not always be the smartest player, but he plays his balls off every night.

And no, his off the court stuff factors into his trade value, but from my understanding that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about the best SF's in the league, not the best trade value for SFs in the league. Big difference.

And nobody is saying that Ron is necessarily "the" guy to build around and nobody has ever said he's as good as Webber. We're merely saying that he is better than most SFs in the league. You're making connections where there aren't just connections to be made. Lebron is the only SF in the league you can build around and certainly nobody is arguing that Ron is close to as good as him.

But yes, it is blind hatred to say that he's not even a positive for this team. The team was above .500 with him in the lineup this year. So the facts point the other way.

You also look at Melo and that he plays with ANOTHER high volume guy in Iverson; he was a 30 ppg player without Iverson. So his stats are also skewed against him in that way. Artest, on the other hand, is the high volume guy on our team, especially after Bibby left.

I also look at Carmelo as a gamebreaker in the post, which is makes him more valuable by default. Especially with the way perimeter defense has diminshed in value in light of the handchecking rule.

You make good points, and I probably would rate Melo higher if he was an average defender, but he's not. He's absolutely putrid defensively. Just awful.

[KM44]

If artest comes to play every night, then why does he sometimes dominate on the perimeter and sometimes get torched like a marshmallow? why does he take a good shot selection on some nights and why not on others? The guy is not consistent at all, you have no idea what kind of night you are going to get from him. And I guess i did not clarify in my initial posting of this thread. I did this because I thought that the kings should do an Artest for TJ ford, Grahm and #17 from Toronto. My friends said no way because he was top 5 SF, and i said no way. thats how this all started, so yes, value is the absolute core of what we are talking about.

[pillwenney]

If artest comes to play every night, then why does he sometimes dominate on the perimeter and sometimes get torched like a marshmallow? why does he take a good shot selection on some nights and why not on others? The guy is not consistent at all, you have no idea what kind of night you are going to get from him. And I guess i did not clarify in my initial posting of this thread. I did this because I thought that the kings should do an Artest for TJ ford, Grahm and #17 from Toronto. My friends said no way because he was top 5 SF, and i said no way. thats how this all started, so yes, value is the absolute core of what we are talking about.

What defensively? He only gets torched when guys like Kobe and Lebron are at the top of their games. Other than that, he doesn't.

And you're confusing decision-making with effort. To say that he doesn't come to play every night is to imply that he doesn't try his best every night, which is completely untrue. One could even argue that Ron's biggest problem is that he's trying too hard, and that makes him lose sight of the smart decision.

And even on his "bad nights" he's not nearly as bad as you make him out to be. Usually what will happen is that he'll take a few bad shots in a row, and people like you will come out screaming "he's ruining the team!"

Well that's exactly why many here aren't really in favor of trading Ron. His playing abilities far exceed his trade value. He'll always be seen as a risk because he'll always be Ron Artest. That doesn't mean he's not a top 5 SF.

[chriswebb86]

If artest comes to play every night, then why does he sometimes dominate on the perimeter and sometimes get torched like a marshmallow? why does he take a good shot selection on some nights and why not on others? The guy is not consistent at all, you have no idea what kind of night you are going to get from him. And I guess i did not clarify in my initial posting of this thread. I did this because I thought that the kings should do an Artest for TJ ford, Grahm and #17 from Toronto. My friends said no way because he was top 5 SF, and i said no way. thats how this all started, so yes, value is the absolute core of what we are talking about.

If you look at some of the nights that Artest has been scored upon a lot I would look at the amount shots the player has to take to get their points. I think a few nights were Kobe scored 30 to 40 points he took around 25 to 30 shots so that shows how misleading getting torched by them is.

[KM44]

well i am just looking at this from a different eye. I do understand the overexerting argument and bad decision making, and lack of trade value. and that is just a few of the reasons why i dislike his style of play. Guys like tashawn prince, Manu, Marion ect. are efficient with their shots and decision making, which in turn, makes them better players. All of those guys are just as good at overall defense than artest, and their offensive IQ is what makes them better.

I just really don't like the fact that artest thinks that he runs the place, and his constant battles with trade demand threats and speaking out is the kind of stuff that makes teams crumble. Morale and chemistry are equally as important to talent, and if artest is the kind of player that needs his coach to speak out and demine the actual best player (martin about two weeks ago) I dont want him, plain and simple

[pillwenney]

well i am just looking at this from a different eye. I do understand the overexerting argument and bad decision making, and lack of trade value. and that is just a few of the reasons why i dislike his style of play. Guys like tashawn prince, Manu, Marion ect. are efficient with their shots and decision making, which in turn, makes them better players. All of those guys are just as good at overall defense than artest, and their offensive IQ is what makes them better.

They make better decisions because they have no decisions to make (well not Manu, but he never plays SF, so he's not really relevant). Prince and especially Marion aren't asked to do what Ron does offensively because they aren't as capable as Ron.

And no, neither is as good over all as Ron defensively. Ron is a full notch above both IMO.

I just really don't like the fact that artest thinks that he runs the place, and his constant battles with trade demand threats and speaking out is the kind of stuff that makes teams crumble. Morale and chemistry are equally as important to talent, and if artest is the kind of player that needs his coach to speak out and demine the actual best player (martin about two weeks ago) I dont want him, plain and simple

Wow, this paragraph is jam-packed with stuff that is just made up. Ron has never given any indication that he runs the place. In fact he has talked several times before about just wanting to win and play good team ball. Not once has he said anything to suggest that he thinks that way. That is creating facts on your part.

He has never demanded a trade with the Kings. Show me one quote by him that suggests this. Again, you're simply creating facts here.

And seriously, are you suggesting that Ron put Reggie up to calling out Kevin? Seriously?

Making up your own facts and ignoring the real facts, to me, completely shows that you have an irrational hatred for Ron.

[KingInExile]

-= original quote snipped =-



Wow, this paragraph is jam-packed with stuff that is just made up. Ron has never given any indication that he runs the place. In fact he has talked several times before about just wanting to win and play good team ball. Not once has he said anything to suggest that he thinks that way. That is creating facts on your part.

He has never demanded a trade with the Kings. Show me one quote by him that suggests this. Again, you're simply creating facts here.

And seriously, are you suggesting that Ron put Reggie up to calling out Kevin? Seriously?

Making up your own facts and ignoring the real facts, to me, completely shows that you have an irrational hatred for Ron.

Come on mitch, you know that made up facts are always better than real facts on these boards. Why bother researching the truth when you can make up facts to fit your agenda...it's much easier that way.

[RoyalCourtJestr]

Wow... I don't like Ron have as much as most of the people here, but he is still a top 5 SF...

But yes. Most of the interweb is made up crap as it is.

[KM44]

well then, I am glad that I am being pointed out as a lair on multiple fronts. There would be no reason to hate artest if this stuff was actually false, but why is artest constantly in trade rumors? First it was the knicks for lee, then to the lakers, then to the nuggets, it is just a whirlwind of crap that surrounds his name. Those are all things that he was a part of, true he did not always instigate the trades, but he in no way tried to prevent them. Every time one of those trade rumors came along, he spoke out with crap like he would love to play back in his home town, or the nuggets would be a better team with him, its all just an act. Now I understand that you guys are on your knees for artest, that pretty obvious, but why should you have to point this at me? Artest is not a good player to have on a team, im sorry.

[sackings916]

well then, I am glad that I am being pointed out as a lair on multiple fronts. There would be no reason to hate artest if this stuff was actually false, but why is artest constantly in trade rumors? First it was the knicks for lee, then to the lakers, then to the nuggets, it is just a whirlwind of crap that surrounds his name. Those are all things that he was a part of, true he did not always instigate the trades, but he in no way tried to prevent them. Every time one of those trade rumors came along, he spoke out with crap like he would love to play back in his home town, or the nuggets would be a better team with him, its all just an act. Now I understand that you guys are on your knees for artest, that pretty obvious, but why should you have to point this at me? Artest is not a good player to have on a team, im sorry.

Just stop, you've already lost any credibility.

[pillwenney]

well then, I am glad that I am being pointed out as a lair on multiple fronts. There would be no reason to hate artest if this stuff was actually false, but why is artest constantly in trade rumors? First it was the knicks for lee, then to the lakers, then to the nuggets, it is just a whirlwind of crap that surrounds his name. Those are all things that he was a part of, true he did not always instigate the trades, but he in no way tried to prevent them. Every time one of those trade rumors came along, he spoke out with crap like he would love to play back in his home town, or the nuggets would be a better team with him, its all just an act. Now I understand that you guys are on your knees for artest, that pretty obvious, but why should you have to point this at me? Artest is not a good player to have on a team, im sorry.

He never did. Ever, ever!

And didn't try to prevent them? Are you kidding me? If he did try to prevent them you would criticize him for not keeping his mouth shut there too!

And yeah he said a couple of things that were honest responses to questions instead of just the typical answers that a player is "supposed" to give. Is that what you're really so worried about?

And seriously, how can you call us biased when you are the one that is just making stuff up? The rest of us are using facts--like how this team is factually better with Ron because we have a significantly better record with him in the lineup.

[KM44]

k, im done. sackings is right, I no longer have a say in this topic. I think that I am right and you think you are, so there is no way that I can make any sort of leeway in this conversation.

My closing statement is that Artest is probably not as bad as I think he is, but I still think that he is in the top 15, not top 5, sorry, and the rest of the league would probably agree

[pillwenney]

Everybody always has the right to an opinion, but you just can't expect that opinion to have much credibility when you pull facts out of thin air and clearly appear to be reaching for reasons to dislike Ron.

[KingInExile]

well then, I am glad that I am being pointed out as a lair on multiple fronts. There would be no reason to hate artest if this stuff was actually false, but why is artest constantly in trade rumors? First it was the knicks for lee, then to the lakers, then to the nuggets, it is just a whirlwind of crap that surrounds his name. Those are all things that he was a part of, true he did not always instigate the trades, but he in no way tried to prevent them. Every time one of those trade rumors came along, he spoke out with crap like he would love to play back in his home town, or the nuggets would be a better team with him, its all just an act. Now I understand that you guys are on your knees for artest, that pretty obvious, but why should you have to point this at me? Artest is not a good player to have on a team, im sorry.

Man, you are putting 2 and 2 together and are coming up with Lake Titicaca.

Trade rumors, especially fantasies started by Peter Vescey, have nothing to do with whether Artest is "demanding" a trade. Most trade rumors are just speculation. The ones that were not were initiated for the simple fact that Petrie wanted to explore what kind of value he could get out of Artest based on the assumption that he could very likely opt out this summer. Knick fans are the only ones who have been delusional enough to think that Artest has asked for any trade when the only thing that has been in the paper has been him saying that he is happy in Sacramento and wants to stay in Sacramento. Are you going to listen to Artest himself or to delusional Knick fans?

[KM44]

sadly, I would take a crazy knicks fan. I just don't trust artest at all, he's just nutty

[KF10]

Artest is a Top 5 SF.

[pillwenney]

sadly, I would take a crazy knicks fan. I just don't trust artest at all, he's just nutty

So in other words, you would assume something is true about Ron because other fans assume it to be true, even though nothing has ever been said to that affect?

I mean really, step outside yourself and look at this for a second. You're saying that you'd believe somebody that is basically making crap up over somebody who is known for being way too honest with the media?

Well, I don't think I can help you.

[BMiller52]

well then, I am glad that I am being pointed out as a lair on multiple fronts. There would be no reason to hate artest if this stuff was actually false, but why is artest constantly in trade rumors? First it was the knicks for lee, then to the lakers, then to the nuggets, it is just a whirlwind of crap that surrounds his name. Those are all things that he was a part of, true he did not always instigate the trades, but he in no way tried to prevent them. Every time one of those trade rumors came along, he spoke out with crap like he would love to play back in his home town, or the nuggets would be a better team with him, its all just an act. Now I understand that you guys are on your knees for artest, that pretty obvious, but why should you have to point this at me? Artest is not a good player to have on a team, im sorry.

We're on our knees for Artest? You make us sound like a bunch of crazy whores hoping an athlete will choose to bang us rather than people who object to an idea.

You whine about the trade rumors. His name came up in rumors because he is a controversial guy, all he said was "the Nuggets would be a better team with me" and "I like my home town Knicks, I was a fan of them as a kid". What the hell is bad about that? If the guy had said "trading me to the knicks? **** that they suck monkey testicles!!!!!!" you would be blaming him for killing trade talks and lowering his value. If he had said "Denver sucks and plays no D, I don't want to play with those ball hogs AI and Anthony" you would've said the same thing. He never said he WANTED to be traded, multiple times he's just said that he's pretty happy in Sac but if the team chooses to move him he won't blame them for multiple reasons(his past, going in a different direction, things like that). He's recently said that when he's eventually a FA(this year or next) he'll give the Kings the first chance to sign him over any other team. He is asked about this stuff(made up rumors) by the media so he says what he has to, he gives the politically correct answer being nice about the team in question while maintaining he's happy where he is. That's exactly WHAT HE SHOULD BE DOING.

You blame him for being a ball hog and a bad decision maker but you know what? Salmons is 10 times worse of a ball hog and makes bonehead decisions sometimes(passing up open shots to drive into 2 or 3 guys in the paint and throw up a lay up that has a 5% shot of going in) but I haven't seen you criticize him. Cisco makes bonehead decisions like pull up 3s from 29 feet away and dribbles the ball off his foot occasionally but you aren't busting his balls for that. Every player makes bonehead decisions at times. Ron occasionally waits too long for the double team to come or he drives into a double sometimes but I saw him pass plenty of times, especially in the 2nd half of the season when Bibby was gone and this season as a whole. Yeah he takes bonehead 3s sometimes(I remember he tried to take over 1 of the Warriors games and it didn't turn out so well), but sometimes he makes them. If you watched the New Orleans game towards the end of the season, he took over that game in the 4th while making sure in the first 3 quarters everyone got their shots. THen in the 4th he made like 4 3 pointers and a couple FTs IIRC, so it works sometimes.


Sorry but pretty much everything you have said is (Please Use More Appropriate Word) slander and not really true at all.

[GSWhoopfan]

Artest is damn good. Id love Artest on the Warriors. His toughness is a big plus in my eyes (i think hes the toughest dude in the league and its not even close). I believe he has the strongest hands in the league as well. Artest is undervalued in this league.

Artest is a straight up bully. Straight up bully.

[sackings916]

Artest is damn good. Id love Artest on the Warriors. His toughness is a big plus in my eyes (i think hes the toughest dude in the league and its not even close). I believe he has the strongest hands in the league as well. Artest is undervalued in this league.

Artest is a straight up bully. Straight up bully.

Thank you. Artest is just a beast physically. He's too strong for the perimeter players in the league and he's too fast and skilled if you put a bigger/stronger player on him. A very small % of fans, including Kings fans truly understand how good Artest is.