When was Jordan considered the best?

[Doctor MJ]

Of course. It's called filling a vacuum. It's not any sort of indictment of Jordan's play.

Certainly it is. Jordan stifled Pippen (individually). That much is obvious. If it helps you sleep better at night then just keep reminding yourself the team was better that way. But Jordan stifling Pippen individually is reality.

In the context of history (at least RealGM history) he might have been considered a better player if Jordan stayed retired. More along the lines of how this board (over)rates Drexler. Personally, I think he was far superior to Drexler but most people here don't.

Well one, you're totally wrong about Pippen vs Drexler here. Pippen got rated ahead of Drexler on our Top 100 for example.

So did Jordan hold Pippen back? Absolutely not in terms of reputation. His work is appreciated pretty accurately.

Beyond that, did Jordan hold Pippen's volume stats back? Well sure. Every #1 scoring option holds his respective #2 scoring option back from a volume perspective. This should not be used as an indictment of any one of them in particular.

[G35]

Yeah the first threepeat for the Bulls was a different team except for the two crucial elements in Pippen and Phil Jax.

But during those threepeats the casts didn't change. The luxury tax didn't affect teams back then. You could hold on to players and maintain some continuity.

As far as Duncan 2003 he lead a pretty average team to a title which is something I don't Jordan did. In 2005 I'm not that impressed with that team also. Ginobli was just coming into his own but Parker was still not the player he is now or even in 05-06. Parker was average to terrible in that final vs the Pistons.


To me this interpretation. If you put comparable talent around Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, Wilt, DRob, Russell, Duncan and Jordan I might edge to MJ because he is a guard and it's easier to get the ball out of a big mans hands than it is a guard with Mike's ability.

But starting or rebuilding a franchise around a SG is going to need more luck and more time to become successful than a franchise that builds around a center. To me that's just inarguable.....

[KNICKS1970]

But starting or rebuilding a franchise around a SG is going to need more luck and more time to become successful than a franchise that builds around a center. To me that's just inarguable.....

This is mostly true. The one exception to the "great big man" theory is, of course, Michael Jordan, who played in a generation full of great big men and ended up with the dynasty even though he never played with a dominant center.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

Jan 12th, 1992.

[Jordan23Forever]

Could Jordan let someone else get finals MVP?

If someone else deserved it, I don't see why not. During his acceptance speech after the '97 Finals, he noted that he would like to give his award to Pippen.

Wht was Jordan supposed to do? He had no control over who the award was given to. If any of his teammates clearly outplayed him in a series, I don't think he'd have a problem with them winning Finals MVP (if it were up to him). But was Pippen capable of outplaying him and at the same time winning? Jordan's production was an outgrowth of his talent and ability. Even if Scottie wereven 23-26 shots/gm and made the primary focus of the offense, would he have been able to produce at the level Jordan did as efficiently as he did? Would it have been conducive to winning? I don't think it would have been, because Pippen was never that type of player; never had that type of talent.

Imo that's one reason why it was good for Jordan and Drexlers career to not have been on the same team because they couldn't have co-existed and reached their peak abilities.

And you know this how? See, this is exactly the problem. You're speculating about what would have happened based on what actually did happen. Not only that, but the version of "reality" that you're basing this speculation on is terrifically distorted (i.e., the notion that Jordan somehow held Pippen back from playing to his potential, as you assume he would have done with Drexler). It's just ridiculous and totally illogical.

There is a reason Jordan retired when he could have playing. He knew it wouldn't be the same if Phil and Scottie wasn't there. He knew that much......

This is just ridiculous. Of course he knew what he had (a geat teammate and coach) and was loyal to them. And at that age (35) why would he want to start over in a new situation when they were having success? The fact that you even bring this up is indicative of how biased you are.

[lukeridenour]

i think jordan was considered to potentially be the GOAT in the late 80s. Jordan was simply great enough to reach up and grab it.

[KNICKS1970]

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And you know this how? See, this is exactly the problem. You're speculating about what would have happened based on what actually did happen. Not only that, but the version of "reality" that you're basing this speculation on is terrifically distorted (i.e., the notion that Jordan somehow held Pippen back from playing to his potential, as you assume he would have done with Drexler). It's just ridiculous and totally illogical.

Exactly, which is why these "What if?" debates are the weakest part of any GOAT debate. It's almost always completely up to someone's personal biases and rooting interests.

[99 Problems]

Early 90's until Kobe's 7th ring when he takes over the title of GOAT....

[Milan24]

IMO, Jordan was in the GOAT conversations when he came back to win his 4th title.

[G35]

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And you know this how? See, this is exactly the problem. You're speculating about what would have happened based on what actually did happen. Not only that, but the version of "reality" that you're basing this speculation on is terrifically distorted (i.e., the notion that Jordan somehow held Pippen back from playing to his potential, as you assume he would have done with Drexler). It's just ridiculous and totally illogical.


This is just ridiculous. Of course he knew what he had (a geat teammate and coach) and was loyal to them. And at that age (35) why would he want to start over in a new situation when they were having success? The fact that you even bring this up is indicative of how biased you are.

I don't think Jordan held Pippen back. Pippen had his role and Mike had his. They complimented each other perfectly. However look at how Jordan took over the Bulls when he was a rookie. Quintin Dailey and Orlando Woolridge were better than average scorers.

Drexler was an elite SG and Mike was projected to be at least on the same level. Why would anyone draft a SG if they already had an All Star level talent at that position? Two dominant scorers rarely can co-exist on the same team. One has to defer to the other. I can't think of any teams off hand that had 2 dominant scoring SG's on their team. That's not a what if. If you can think of one I'll say that I'm wrong on that.


On your 2nd point you are saying that once Jordan had gotten to the top he wasn't competitive enough to stay in a situation where he wasn't on a team that was a finals contender? Where is that Jordan commercial where he says that, "Maybe it's my fault, or maybe you are just making excuses.".....

[Doctor MJ]

As far as Duncan 2003 he lead a pretty average team to a title which is something I don't Jordan did. In 2005 I'm not that impressed with that team also. Ginobli was just coming into his own but Parker was still not the player he is now or even in 05-06. Parker was average to terrible in that final vs the Pistons.

For some perspective here, Duncan had a negative team net +/- in the '05 playoffs, meanwhile Ginobili was playing completely out of his mind. Remember, Duncan was just coming back from an injury, and he was not playing his best ball at the time. imho, of the Spurs championship runs, '05 was easily Duncan's worst performance, and so no, his supporting cast by that point was not mediocre any more.

[Rerisen]

Jordan without Pippen?

Pip missed the first 35 games of the 97-98 season and the Jordan led Bulls went 24-11 in that time. That's a .685 winning percentage. To compare to the current season, only Boston, Detroit and the Lakers had a better % this season. Also higher than the oft heralded Pippen led team of 93-94. Pippen was 28 in his prime that year. M.J. was 35 in 1998.

Not bad for missing a top 50 All time player for almost the first half of the season.

[Jordan23Forever]

Jordan without Pippen?

Pip missed the first 35 games of the 97-98 season and the Jordan led Bulls went 24-11 in that time. That's a .685 winning percentage. To compare to the current season, only Boston, Detroit and the Lakers had a better % this season. Also higher than the oft heralded Pippen led team of 93-94. Pippen was 28 in his prime that year. M.J. was 35 in 1998.

Not bad for missing a top 50 All time player for almost the first half of the season.

And that's with being 35 years old and having a torn ligament on the index finger of his shooting hand. One of his greatest accomplishments imo along with taking a 19-win Wizards team to 26-21 and the 6th seed in the EC at the All-Star break in '02 while averaging 25/6/5 as a 39 year old.

[Kobay]

dupe

[Kobay]

should kobe get a recognition for leading last year's lakers to 27-13 record until lamar, luke and kwame got injured.

Smush
kobe
luke
lamar
kwame

Or LeBron this begnning of the season?

[Rerisen]

The point isn't special recognition but to refute the rather silly idea that Jordan's teams were only good because he had another top player in the game with him (or 2nd best player in the league as one person claimed!)

Not sure how the thread became about Kobe? I'm pretty sure he wasn't 35 years old last year though. Look what Pippen was doing at 35, averaging 12 points a game in Portland. His PER was down from the 20's to 15.

[Kobay]

Gotta point there. At 40 he was still better than many young starters.

[EHL]

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The point is that a marginal improvement (which is all '94 was in comparison to '92 or '96) is not strong enough to make as definitive and dismissive a statement as you made, not least of all because it could simply be due to a player's growth and an increased role rather than some Bilge fantasy of Jordan "holding him down."

This is more than a bit funny considering you once said that Jordan practically made Pippen into the player he eventually became.

[Jordan23Forever]

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This is more than a bit funny considering you once said that Jordan practically made Pippen into the player he eventually became.

I do believe that Jordan, in ways both obvious and subtle, helped Pippen become the player he was. Pippen had the talent and work ethic to become a good/great player anyway, but he wouldn't have been exactly the same player in all respects if he had never played with Jordan.