Jerry West, GOAT?

[Point forward]

If you usually go into GOAT discussions, you only take the player career into account, which usually runs into the Wilt-vs-MJ discussions. But if you take player career *AND* post-player career into account, is Jerry West the GOAT? IIRC he is the only guy who was a superstar player AND a superstar coach/general manager.

Russell was a superb player, but as a PURE coach, he was average (Seattle knows this). MJ was a superb player but a crappy GM. Wilt was a superb player but did not do anything after that. Ditto Kareem. Red Auerbach is the coaching GOAT but was a LOL player. Phil Jackson is a superb coach but a very average player. Ditto Riley.

GOAT-range player AND GOAT-range post-player career? Jerry West! He is at worst the 4th best guard ever, whipped the Lakers into two generation of success (Magic/Kareem and Shaq/Kobe), and turned Memphis from laughingstock into a playoffs team. IMHO the only guys who approach West in his dual elite career are Lenny Wilkins, Bill Sharman and Don Nelson, and MAYBE Joe Dumars. But both as players and as coaches, neither comes close to the player/GM West.

So... Jerry West, GOAT? After *this* definition, I think so.

[Myth_Breaker]

If you usually go into GOAT discussions, you only take the player career into account, which usually runs into the Wilt-vs-MJ discussions. But if you take player career *AND* post-player career into account, is Jerry West the GOAT? IIRC he is the only guy who was a superstar player AND a superstar coach/general manager.

Russell was a superb player, but as a PURE coach, he was average (Seattle knows this). MJ was a superb player but a crappy GM. Wilt was a superb player but did not do anything after that. Ditto Kareem. Red Auerbach is the coaching GOAT but was a LOL player. Phil Jackson is a superb coach but a very average player. Ditto Riley.

GOAT-range player AND GOAT-range post-player career? Jerry West! He is at worst the 4th best guard ever, whipped the Lakers into two generation of success (Magic/Kareem and Shaq/Kobe), and turned Memphis from laughingstock into a playoffs team. IMHO the only guys who approach West in his dual elite career are Lenny Wilkins, Bill Sharman and Don Nelson, and MAYBE Joe Dumars. But both as players and as coaches, neither comes close to the player/GM West.

So... Jerry West, GOAT? After *this* definition, I think so.

It's very interesting what you've written here. I've been thinking about similar poll, but differently worded since we associate GOAT term with only playing career, no ifs and buts. But about who had the greatest basketball career overall. If you don't mind, I'll start the poll in next thread (mods may merge this, although I'm not sure how it's about merging threads with polls).

[Malinhion]

Isiah Thomas?





Just kidding. Good thread.

[Sedale Threatt]

He'd almost have to be. Widely considered the best SG in history when he retired, now probably No. 3 behind Jordan and Bryant, then the GM of six championship teams. That's a hell of a resume.

After him I'd vote for Sharman. The thing I admire most about him from what I've read is what a revolutionary thinker he was in terms of preparation, practice, nutrition, etc. If I'm not mistaken, he came up with the concept of the shootaround.

[Myth_Breaker]

Guys, express your opinion also in this thread! I'm really curious about the poll's results.

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=793778

[Warspite]

Theres a book out now about West/lakers and the author was on TV recently and he would disagree with the premiss because of the following accounts.

1. West had nothing to do with drafting Magic
2. West had nothing to do with tradeing for Kareem
3. West didnt pursue Shaq and that its more the other way around.
4. West trading for Kobe was pretty easy since he was the only GM who interviewed him.

Im not sure what is true and what isnt but I believe West wasnt given full GM power untill the mid 80s. I also understand how the Lakers ran the WC much like baseball is run today. the Lakers were the only WC team with a big market in the 80s and for most of the 80s the 2nd or 3rd best WC team couldnt make the playoffs in the EC. Most WC teams were still in $$$ trouble untill the expansion franchises (over 20 mil to each team in 1980s money when cap was less than 20mil) and NBA bought the TV rights from CBS.

[Myth_Breaker]

Theres a book out now about West/lakers and the author was on TV recently and he would disagree with the premiss because of the following accounts.

1. West had nothing to do with drafting Magic
2. West had nothing to do with tradeing for Kareem
3. West didnt pursue Shaq and that its more the other way around.
4. West trading for Kobe was pretty easy since he was the only GM who interviewed him.

Im not sure what is true and what isnt but I believe West wasnt given full GM power untill the mid 80s. I also understand how the Lakers ran the WC much like baseball is run today. the Lakers were the only WC team with a big market in the 80s and for most of the 80s the 2nd or 3rd best WC team couldnt make the playoffs in the EC. Most WC teams were still in $$$ trouble untill the expansion franchises (over 20 mil to each team in 1980s money when cap was less than 20mil) and NBA bought the TV rights from CBS.

West became GM in 1982, but Sharman - official GM before him - stated publicly that West had been de facto GM already before that date. It's true that Jerry Buss himself finally decided about drafting Magic over Moncrief or Greenwood, but I don't believe rest of this guy's accusations, especially as we all remember how much Lakers were courting Shaq. And in 1996 drafting high-schoolers was considered major risk, much bigger than now - props to West for quick deciding to select Kobe after just one workout, though very impressive one (KB schooled Michael Cooper one-on-one).

[ronnymac2]

Yeah, by that definition, West is the GOAT. Great, great player, top 10 or 12 for me all-time. And then what he did with the the 80's laker's. I mean, idk, even if he had little to do with magic and kareem, he still kept putting together some great pieces for that team. Think about all the players the lakers would get: mychal thompson, bob mcadoo, and other good role players. You don't just need to get superstars to be a great gm.

And then, of course, getting vlade divac, aqcuiring shaq and kobe in the same year, and getting them the role players they needed. That's awesome.

And about what Mythbreaker said, i just read an SI article like 15 minutes ago about cooper and kobe. That's sick. lol Cooper defending kobe in their primes woulda prob been really good, too.

[kandiking]

another "2-way" NBA player/front office man is jerry sloan. he was a 2 time all-star and all defensive team 4 times.

[shawngoat23]

The man is the Logo for a reason. GOAT if you combine player/front office. And even coaching.