How good are "point forward" teams anyhow?

[Malinhion]

These days everyone seems enamoured with players who fit the "point forward" mold. But really, how far have these players gone? Grant Hill didn't make it out of the first round with the Pistons before his ankles got screwed. Tracy McGrady has had similiar problems succeeding as a swingman playmaker (though he is much like a shooting guard). Lamar Odom went to the 2nd round one year leading the Heat. LeBron seems to be the best of this mold in recent memory, taking his team through a weak Eastern Conference last year. I know Pippen was one but that team was really led by a versatile shooting guard.

What have been the best point forward-led squads since the Showtime Lakers?

[Kobay]

Height advantage is on ur side but point forwards need to be able to shoot the ball. Pippen, Magic...

[Point forward]

TERRIBLE. My J makes Ben Wallace look good.



(I think it has something to do that point forwards are SFs, and it is so utterly hard to dominate from that position if you are not Larry Bird. SFs almost always have to be superb shooters to dominate, and apart from Bird, neither really fits the bill.)

[Myth_Breaker]

TERRIBLE. My J makes Ben Wallace look good.



(I think it has something to do that point forwards are SFs, and it is so utterly hard to dominate from that position if you are not Larry Bird. SFs almost always have to be superb shooters to dominate, and apart from Bird, neither really fits the bill.)

Historically, there were more dominant SFs than SGs, great shooters or not. Fulks, Arizin, Baylor, Havlicek, Cunningham, Barry, Bird, Worthy, LeBron...

[celticfan42487]

Historically and you add LeBron.

Point Fowards used to be post up guys too, the game has changed. I think Melo is a good example of a point foward.

SFs that can do everything offensively are now desired not merely a Point Foward. that includes hitting a three and passing out doubles as well as drawing fouls on penetration.

[Point forward]

-= original quote snipped =-

Historically, there were more dominant SFs than SGs, great shooters or not. Fulks, Arizin, Baylor, Havlicek, Cunningham, Barry, Bird, Worthy, LeBron...

True, but it rarely translated to rings as leader of the team... and if yes (Barry, Bird, maybe Worthy), they were either Bird or not really passing SFs, as point forwards are.

To answer the TO question: I think PO-Fs are *one* way to success, but IMHO the easiest way is either via an elite C or an elite PG. I would rather have a main guy like David Robinson or Gary Payton than a main guy like Scottie Pippen.

[greenbeans]

lets not forget the wiggle

[Malinhion]

Historically and you add LeBron.

Point Fowards used to be post up guys too, the game has changed. I think Melo is a good example of a point foward.

SFs that can do everything offensively are now desired not merely a Point Foward. that includes hitting a three and passing out doubles as well as drawing fouls on penetration.

Melo is absolutely not a point forward. He's as far as you can come. He's almost a pure finisher, not a playmaker.

[celticfan42487]

Psh you say that now but he'll be draining that hook shot in your teams face FTW!

[FlashFlood]

IMO pointforwards are finishing touches on elite teams. Tayshaun Prince has come into a pointforward role because everyone else's role has been perfected. The only room for improvement is to be a glue guy that can do everything. Pippen had to become point forward because Jordan demands and deserved to be a primary offensive focal point.

IMO Lebron's a tweener power point guard. He's just so good that you can't have him playing any position other than a do-it-all slot like point forward. He's a rare talent that reminds me of an even more athletic prime Grant Hill. He's got GOAT potential, the highest compliment anyone can get at his age.

For the rest... there's even less useful point forwards than there are franchise PGs or Cs. It's the kind of position that evolves in elite teams. It's a team with very well-defined roles and the only room left is for someone who can do it all. There's the Diaws, the Grant Hills, the Tayshaun Princes, or whoever is playing forward for the GS Warriors on any given day.

How good are point forward teams? Variable... There's only one true point-forward team (Cleveland Lebrons), but a whole bunch with great utility players who aren't defined by the point forward.

I personally dont consider guys like Carmelo, offensive focal points that look for their offense first, as point forwards. If you can make the distinction between pure point guards vs lead guards (Nash vs Iverson) then you gotta make the distinction between point forwards and scoring forwards.

[Myth_Breaker]

-= original quote snipped =-



True, but it rarely translated to rings as leader of the team... and if yes (Barry, Bird, maybe Worthy), they were either Bird or not really passing SFs, as point forwards are.

You seemed to talk about SFs in general, hence my answer. Anyway, except Cunningham (and of course LeBron, who's only 23 yrs old now and has long career ahead of him) all guys I've mentioned lead their teams to the championships as 1st options/Finals MVPs.

To answer the TO question: I think PO-Fs are *one* way to success, but IMHO the easiest way is either via an elite C or an elite PG. I would rather have a main guy like David Robinson or Gary Payton than a main guy like Scottie Pippen.

I agree 100%.

[legacyinthemakin89c]

Bulls.

Pippen.

The Bulls don't win 6 championships without him.

Greatest point forward of all time.

Magic was and will always be just a big point guard.

Lebron has the potential to be considered the greatest point forward ever.

[Myth_Breaker]

Barry and Havlicek were so much better than Pip that it's not even funny...

[spudwebb]

Barry and Havlicek were so much better than Pip that it's not even funny...

Yes, Barry or Havlicek would have done a much better job locking down a 6'9 Magic Johnson in 1991

[Malinhion]

Psh you say that now but he'll be draining that hook shot in your teams face FTW!

The role of a point forward to to create offense for his team while doing everything else dynamically. Melo is assisted on 59% of his shots, and gets 3.5 APG. Those are absolutely not point forward numbers.

[BubbaTee]

The Milwaukee Bucks with point forward Paul Pressey won 59 games in 1985. They just had the bad luck of being in the East at the same time as Moses/Erving/Barkley and Bird/McHale/Parish.

John Johnson played point forward with 3 other guards in the lineup, leading the 1979 champion Sonics in assists.

[Hood President]

TERRIBLE. My J makes Ben Wallace look good.



(I think it has something to do that point forwards are SFs, and it is so utterly hard to dominate from that position if you are not Larry Bird. SFs almost always have to be superb shooters to dominate, and apart from Bird, neither really fits the bill.)

SF imo is just another shooting guard on the floor.

[Myth_Breaker]

Barry and Havlicek were so much better than Pip that it's not even funny...

Yes, Barry or Havlicek would have done a much better job locking down a 6'9 Magic Johnson in 1991

1) Pippen

http://pweb.netcom.com/~bjalas/basketba ... pippen.htm

"1991 Scottie "Shut Down" Magic Johnson in the 1991 NBA Finals.
First: Lets disspell a myth. Scottie Pippen did not "shut down" Magic Johnson in the 1991 NBA Finals:
Johnson's numbers in the 1991 NBA Finals:
Game Pts Rebs Ast
1 19 10 11
2* 14 7 10
3* 22 6 10
4* 22 6 11
5* 16 11 20
* games when Johnson was guarded by Pippen


Johnsons's 1991 NBA Finals Stats: 18.6ppg 8.0rpg 12.4apg
Johnson's 1991 NBA Finals stats while guarded by Pippen: 18.5ppg 7.5rpg 12.8apg
Johnson's 1990-91 Regular season stats 19.4ppg 7.0apg 12.5apg


When you consider that an assist causes your team to score 2 points, Johnson was actually more productive for his team (by a tiny fraction) while guarded by Pippen than he was in Game 1 of the 1991 NBA Finals or the 1990-91 regular season.

While Scottie deserves credit for keeping Magic from completely "going off" in the series, Pippen only slowed Johnson down in Game 2. In games 3-5 Johnson averaged 20ppg, 7.7rpg 13.7apg, all better than his regular season numbers. Pippen was a great defender but, Johnson, -like all of the game's All Time Greats do in big games- still "got his" while he was guarded by Scottie Pippen. Johnson even had 20 assists in game 5 when his two long time trusted options: James Worthy and Byron Scott, were out with injuries."

2) Barry

http://www.nba.com/history/players/barry_summary.html

"Full Name: Richard Francis Dennis Barry III
Born: 3/28/44 in Elizabeth, N.J.
Height: 6-7; Weight: 220 lbs.
High School: Roselle Park (N.J.)
College: Miami (Fla.)
Drafted: San Francisco Warriors, 1965 (No. 2 overall)
Transactions: Signed with Oakland Oaks of ABA, 1967; Oaks become Washington Capitols, 1969; Traded to New York Nets, 1970; Returned to NBA's Warriors, '72; Signed with Houston Rockets, 6/17/8.
Honors: Elected to Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame (1987); NBA champion (1975); NBA Finals MVP (1975); All-NBA First Team (1966, '67, '74, '75, '76); All-NBA Second Team (1973); Rookie of the Year (1966); Eight-time NBA All-Star; All-Star MVP (1967); One of 50 Greatest Players in NBA History (1996).
ABA Honors: ABA champion (1969); All-ABA First Team (1969, '70, '71, '72); Four-time ABA All-Star."

The only man to lead both NBA, ABA and NCAA in scoring, the only player (except Dr J) with both NBA and ABA championship, all-time leader in NBA Finals scoring average (36,3 ppg!), pioneer of point forward position, probably the best FT shooter in history (6 times lead the NBA, 1 time - the ABA, .893 overall career percentage), below only 3 players - Wilt, MJ and Baylor - with better season average than Rick's 35,6 ppg in 1966/67, also his 40,8 ppg during 1967 Finals being 2nd best ever Finals scoring performance, good defender as well (lead the league in steals in 1974/75)...

3) Havlicek

http://www.nba.com/history/players/havl ... mmary.html

"Full Name: John J. Havlicek
Born: 4/8/40 in Martins Ferry, Ohio
Height: 6-5; Weight: 205 lbs.
High School: Bridgeport (Ohio)
College: Ohio State
Drafted by: Boston Celtics, 1962
Nickname: Hondo Honors: Elected to Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame (1984); NBA champion (1963, '64, '65, '66, '68, '69, '74, '76); NBA Finals MVP (1974); All-NBA First Team (1971, '72, '73, '74); All-NBA Second Team (1964, '66, '68, '69, '70, '75, '76); Five-time All-Defensive First Team (1972-76); Three-time All-Defensive Second Team (1969-71); 13-time All-Star (1966-78); One of 50 Greatest Players in NBA History (1996)."

"On stamina alone he'd be among the top players who ever played the game," longtime New York Knicks Coach Red Holzman once said of John "Hondo" Havlicek. "It would've been fair to those who had to play him or those who had to coach against him if he had been blessed only with his inhuman endurance. God had to compound it by making him a good scorer, smart ballhandler and intelligent defensive player with quickness of mind, hands and feet."

The 6-5 Boston Celtics star was a perpetual-motion machine, a human dynamo who was legendary for wearing out opponents with his relentless baseline-to-baseline efforts. A star at both forward and guard, Havlicek's versatility made him perhaps the finest all-around player in the history of the NBA, according to Sports Illustrated.

A key member of two generations of Celtics, Havlicek provided the spark off the bench during the Celtics' dynasty years of the 1960's. During the 1970's he was the trusted veteran who captained youthful teams to championships in 1974 and 1976.

Known for clutch performances in big games, Havlicek posted impressive numbers during his illustrious 16-year career. In 1,270 regular-season games he scored 26,395 points and averaged 20.8 points to rank as the Celtics' all-time leading scorer and top scorer in NBA history. He also grabbed 8,007 rebounds, recorded 6,114 assists, and played on eight Boston championship teams. He appeared in 13 consecutive NBA All-Star Games, earned 11 selections to the All-NBA First or Second Team and was named to the NBA All-Defensive First or Second Team eight times."

4) Conclusion

No matter how you put it and spin it, both Rick and John were superior players to Pip, as evidenced also by their Finals MVP awards. Actually, if you're focusing on defense, you might call Hondo original AND better Pippen with his all-around package. Also bear in mind that those two were measured barefoot, so Havlicek was in fact Pippen-sized (albeit with shorter wingspan), while Barry was even bigger.

[studcrackers]

when did the nba start measuring guys in shoes myth?

also i thought magic was also hurt in that bulls/lakers finals?

also would u consider magic a point forward or point guard?

i always kinda associated the term point forward with a guy that was built like a SF but was a good to great distributor, like lebron scottie or magic

[Upperclass]

Bulls.

Pippen.

The Bulls don't win 6 championships without him.

Greatest point forward of all time.

Magic was and will always be just a big point guard.

Lebron has the potential to be considered the greatest point forward ever.

I think Lebron is as natural a pointG as Magic is, it just so happens he's listed and always has been as a F..
This has been discussed ad nauseum, but cle would benefit greatly if they had real threats at 2 & 3 and just let LB run the 1 while sliding him to a 2nd or 3rd option guy on D(he can bother little guys shots on D, just will tire him over 82 games)