Postseason thoughts/ramblings

[Ballings7]

Good win by Detroit

[_SRV_]

I'm not saying that their offense didn't look better afterwards, I'm just saying that that's irrelevant.

You said he he "diversified their offense a little more" and worse than that "just that the team is as well-run as it is mostly because of the players and their chemistry".

That's fine if you want to cite injuries, but then you just have to throw the whole argument out, because really, the regular season just doesn't matter that much. You could put Nellie in Cleveland right now, and I'm sure they'd run a very fun, free-flowing offense, and probably get them more regular season wins but that doesn't mean they'd be a better team in terms of going far in the playoffs.

Cliches are great Mitch, but Miami led 3-2 on Detroit in 05, and Dwyane Wade didn't play game 6, twist it as you you like that's enough of a reason for me to not blame Flip for losing to Miami, you have 2 options:
1. Consider that a top 3 player in the league not playing changes the basis of comparison.
2. Hide your head in the sand and hand LB the trophy because of the circumstances.

[pillwenney]

You said he he "diversified their offense a little more" and worse than that "just that the team is as well-run as it is mostly because of the players and their chemistry".

And? What does that have to do with what I just said?

Cliches are great Mitch, but Miami led 3-2 on Detroit in 05, and Dwyane Wade didn't play game 6, twist it as you you like that's enough of a reason for me to not blame Flip for losing to Miami, you have 2 options:
1. Consider that a top 3 player in the league not playing changes the basis of comparison.
2. Hide your head in the sand and hand LB the trophy because of the circumstances.

What cliches? That the regular season doesn't matter? It doesn't. It's the same reason that some people overrate D'Antoni as a coach--his style is very fun to watch and is conducive to regular season success, but not so much in the playoffs. I'm just saying that you can't say that a team is "fun to watch" and cite that the team had more regular season success to say that a coach is a good coach. That's completely missing the point.

And I'm not even definitely saying that the Pistons lost in the last two years because Flip was totally outcoached, I'm saying that you can't assume that because there were other circumstances that affected the outcome, that Flip otherwise would have lead to his team to the promiseland. He's not as proven as other coaches and doesn't coach a style that is typically conducive to winning in the playoffs, and for me, he hasn't consistently shown the ability to make great adjustments in the playoffs.

Also, for what it's worth, while D-Wade may have been injured in 05, that Pistons team did take the Spurs to 7 games under LB.

[_SRV_]

And? What does that have to do with what I just said?

That you started by claiming that he didn't affect their offense much and the team is self run, and now you saying that that's not what you said and you're saying it's irrelevant?

What cliches? That the regular season doesn't matter? It doesn't. It's the same reason that some people overrate D'Antoni as a coach--his style is very fun to watch and is conducive to regular season success, but not so much in the playoffs. I'm just saying that you can't say that a team is "fun to watch" and cite that the team had more regular season success to say that a coach is a good coach. That's completely missing the point.

No, that's not the cliche I'm talking about, I'm talking about comparing the success in 2 years w/o analyzing what caused the difference, the "That's fine if you want to cite injuries, but then you just have to throw the whole argument out," comment to be specific.
You're saying Flip failed compared to LB because he didn't win in the ECF and citing injuries is irrelevant, well not really, he faced the same team, the difference was that the difference maker of that team was missing in the end of the series.

And I'm not even definitely saying that the Pistons lost in the last two years because Flip was totally outcoached, I'm saying that you can't assume that because there were other circumstances that affected the outcome, that Flip otherwise would have lead to his team to the promiseland. He's not as proven as other coaches and doesn't coach a style that is typically conducive to winning in the playoffs, and for me, he hasn't consistently shown the ability to make great adjustments in the playoffs.

So, how did you reach the conclusion that if the Pistons finals in the PO that will be because of Flip??

Also, for what it's worth, while D-Wade may have been injured in 05, that Pistons team did take the Spurs to 7 games under LB.

And?

[pillwenney]

And? What does that have to do with what I just said?

That you started by claiming that he didn't affect their offense much and the team is self run, and now you saying that that's not what you said and you're saying it's irrelevant?

I said that it didn't completely change their offense around entirely. And I stand by the idea that the team runs so efficiently largely because the players are so used to each other. Flip certainly has something to do with it, but he's not the catalyst IMO.

No, that's not the cliche I'm talking about, I'm talking about comparing the success in 2 years w/o analyzing what caused the difference, the "That's fine if you want to cite injuries, but then you just have to throw the whole argument out," comment to be specific.
You're saying Flip failed compared to LB because he didn't win in the ECF and citing injuries is irrelevant, well not really, he faced the same team, the difference was that the difference maker of that team was missing in the end of the series.

You misunderstood what I said. I was saying that our entire argument should be thrown out, because if you're going to use that argument, than Flip's success or lack of success doesn't really show anything. I'm just saying that regardless of everything else, he still hasn't proven that he's a championship coach.

So, how did you reach the conclusion that if the Pistons finals in the PO that will be because of Flip??

I said that I think that Flip is a solid coach but that Pop and Phil are elite ones. Flip has never done anything to prove to me that he deserves this recognition.

And?

Detroit was still a damn good team even if D-Wade's injury kept them from being eliminated.

[Ballings7]

Well, I think that's likely the game, and probably the season for the Spurs

Lakers have just played some better overall tonight

(whoever is watching)

[Ballings7]

2 pt game

but no rebound by the Spurs on the airball by Fisher!

Blah, 5.6 secs left, Laker ball

[Ballings7]

Kobe airball/bad miss

2.1 left Spurs ball

[Ballings7]

Blech

Basically no way Crawford was going to be giving the Spurs that call, even though Barry was clearly fouled - I'm not too surprised there was no review or give

Unfortunate Spurs loss, no doubt

Lucky, big win for the Lakers

edit: Solid handle of it by Pop (Barry/Fisher play), though

Ultimately that's just how it is

[_SRV_]

Nothing was lucky about Lakers win, they outplayed the Spurs, if anything the Spurs were lucky to be in it at the end.

[_SRV_]

I said that it didn't completely change their offense around entirely. And I stand by the idea that the team runs so efficiently largely because the players are so used to each other. Flip certainly has something to do with it, but he's not the catalyst IMO.

If the players were so used to each other why didn't they play that kind of Baskeball before? You're discrediting the improvement again based on nothing but speculation, for all we know the only thing that changed in the Pistons from 05 to 06 was the coach, it's not like any of the starting five suddenly learned how to play basketball or advanced in this period.

You misunderstood what I said. I was saying that our entire argument should be thrown out, because if you're going to use that argument, than Flip's success or lack of success doesn't really show anything. I'm just saying that regardless of everything else, he still hasn't proven that he's a championship coach.

We're not comparing 1st round exit Vs ring, it's ECF Vs Finals, with Wade not playing in the end, that's very close, so no, you can't say he failed compared to LB, that was very close outcome.

I said that I think that Flip is a solid coach but that Pop and Phil are elite ones. Flip has never done anything to prove to me that he deserves this recognition.

The burden of proof is on Flip, there is no denying that, after all he's the one w/o the ring, that's not what I'm arguing, but declaring from now that he will be the reason for the loss is wrong, they may lose, but most probably not because of him.

Detroit was still a damn good team even if D-Wade's injury kept them from being eliminated.

But we have no basis of comparison here.

[pillwenney]

If the players were so used to each other why didn't they play that kind of Baskeball before? You're discrediting the improvement again based on nothing but speculation, for all we know the only thing that changed in the Pistons from 05 to 06 was the coach, it's not like any of the starting five suddenly learned how to play basketball or advanced in this period.

They did play that kind of basketball before--Flip just changed some offensive sets. It was a different style, but not THAT different. You can switch styles and still be familiar enough with another player to know what he's going to do.

And what improvement are you specifically talking about?

We're not comparing 1st round exit Vs ring, it's ECF Vs Finals, with Wade not playing in the end, that's very close, so no, you can't say he failed compared to LB, that was very close outcome.

Yeah, but we're still talking about whether or not a coach is championship caliber or not. Flip hasn't proven to me that he is with the success he has had yet, nor has he done it by wowing me in any way with anything that he has done in the playoffs.

The burden of proof is on Flip, there is no denying that, after all he's the one w/o the ring, that's not what I'm arguing, but declaring from now that he will be the reason for the loss is wrong, they may lose, but most probably not because of him.

That's not really what I'm saying....I mean like, it is, but it isn't. What I mean is that if they lose, I'm not going to just assume that it was because of Flip or anything. Of course that would be silly. But I'm just making a prediction--I think that the rosters are close in talent, and when that happens, I think that the coaching makes the difference. From my experience, Pop and Phil are standout playoff coaches and Flip is not. So for me, it would be the tie-breaker as far as who I would predict to win.

But we have no basis of comparison here.

Well, besides the '05 Spurs.

[_SRV_]

Regarding the offense - I still disagree, they improved a lot, I've put the stats and the wins total, plus the fact they sent 4 allstars that year, that wasn't the case in LB day, they just weren't as smooth of an offensive team, and before you jump about how looks don't matter in that regard, the stats back it up.
Regarding Flip, I don't think the talent is equal, but that's besides the point, he may not have won the championship, but getting to the ECF twice is enough of an indication for me to say he can coach in the PO, after all Avery Johnson axed Pop with lesser talent, and Phil failed to win after leading 3-1 Vs very inferior coach, coaching after certain level doesn't make much difference, the fact is that both Phil and Pop never won w/o the dominant players they had, Flip doesn't have them, and if history taught us anything about the NBA, is that it's superstars league.

[Smills91]

Spurs got ROBBED.

[pillwenney]

Regarding the offense - I still disagree, they improved a lot, I've put the stats and the wins total, plus the fact they sent 4 allstars that year, that wasn't the case in LB day, they just weren't as smooth of an offensive team, and before you jump about how looks don't matter in that regard, the stats back it up.
Regarding Flip, I don't think the talent is equal, but that's besides the point, he may not have won the championship, but getting to the ECF twice is enough of an indication for me to say he can coach in the PO, after all Avery Johnson axed Pop with lesser talent, and Phil failed to win after leading 3-1 Vs very inferior coach, coaching after certain level doesn't make much difference, the fact is that both Phil and Pop never won w/o the dominant players they had, Flip doesn't have them, and if history taught us anything about the NBA, is that it's superstars league.

No doubt they got better over all offensively with Flip in many respects, but I just still don't think the difference was as massive as you seem to think. And frankly, the all-star thing doesn't say much of anything to me, other than that the conference was pretty weak. But I still think that although they were better over all statistically offensively, that Brown still coached a style that has always been more conducive to playoff success.

Well the fact that you think that there is a talent difference is important because if you think that, then we have no real reason to argue. I never said that talent wasn't the most important thing--it most certainly is (well, along with having the right talent that can actually mesh). I just think that when the talent is close, it's different, and you really have to look at the coaching. I can't recall Flip ever beating a more talented team in a series (although I will say that last year, his team lost to a less talented team). And when we get near the end of the playoffs like this, all of the teams left are going to have great players. The same isn't true for the coaches necessarily, and I think that makes a big difference.

And for what it's worth, Avery's Mavs wouldn't have stood a chance against the Spurs if Duncan were healthy.

But really I guess this goes beyond just wins and losses. It goes to observing how coaches respond in certain situations and looking at how good they are at all the aspects of coaching. Flip has never done anything to impress me as a coach over all. Pop and Phil do almost every year. As much as I hate both Phil and the Lakers for instance, I have never seen a coach that consistently gets his team mentally prepared as well as Phil Jackson.

Point being, no team that I can ever think of has been so far ahead of the rest of the league in talent that they could have won a title with Mussleman as their coach.

[_SRV_]

Tim Duncan posted 32.3/11.7 on 56% shooting, while the Spurs getting the benefit of Spurs' second best player suspended from game 6, they were just outplayed.
The eastern conference didn't change from 04-06, if anything it got stronger, so the I don't really understand your point about the allstar selection.
And about the talent, Detroit doesn't have a superstar, they won in 04 despite that, so ECF appearance with that squad is a success, 04 was anomaly, so I don't how much more can Flip do to compensate in that.
I agree that Flip didn't win a series where his team wasn't favoured to win, and the burden of proof is on him, but the exact same (just teh winning part not the proof) can be said about the Spurs and the Phil Jackson teams.

[pillwenney]

But Phil and Pop have both been in situations in series where it looked like they were the worse team or where they're team was down, and they accordingly made adjustments (either strategically or in the team's mindset) that changed things around. That type of thing is the mark of an elite coach, and I've never seen anything like that from Flip.

[_SRV_]

Philly this year? Blocking the Bulls comeback last year? moving smoothly past the Magic this year?
And I don't know how much I can say that about Pop, he pretty much dominates from the beginning or goes toe to toe, the only time he was with his back against the wall and moved past it relatively cleanly was Vs the Hornets, a young team with first PO appearance, after reverting a change he initiated (putting a wing defender in Bowen on CP).

[SacKingZZZ]

I think this is the start of the end of the Spurs run as a top contender in the west.

[Ballings7]

Blah of a series loss for the Spurs...

The Lakers were enough defensively, actually being significant, and very good offensively with a better bench.

The Spurs couldn't quite score enough, and the bench was a 1/2 notch off or so from the Lakers

Spurs didn't match up enough with them, ultimately, and the Kobe factor.

Also really didn't help that Manu had a couple legit physical factors hindering him, and, I don't believe in injuries not being a factor in ability to play, becuase they are. Surprised Barry and Thomas didn't play more in this series, Barry earlier, Thomas as a whole.

Props to the Lakers, they were the better team.

With eventual re-tooling and some new blood in the off-season, the Spurs will continue to be a legit contender. Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili are all still in various points of their primes, and Bowen is still a terrific defensive player. Pop/Buford will make some adjustments around them.

For me now? Like I said just recently - Go EC!