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AI is not a PG

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Post#41 » by ambiglight » Sat May 31, 2008 5:51 am

SJustice1621 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Honestly I would give up JR for anyone of those guys with the exception of West maybe.

Reason: JR is a great offensive player but he has problems..he's been traded numerous times b/c of his troubles...He could be great one day but I don't see him on a championship team...so I would take a good defensive ball handler over JR smith.

I think we have a shot at getting Alston or West if we try hard...Bibby, Fisher, and rondo are little more difficult to get..but they are some quality guards like these in the league that can play like these guys or better.


JR is incredibly under-rated. His versatility and energy is a perfect compliment to a combo guard like AI. Just like manu and tony parker are a good fit. I wish denver fans recognized the potential they have in their backcourt with AI and JR. Frankly I think the two of them have the potential to be an even better backcourt than chauncy and hamilton. They just need to give it a shot, while moving camby off the perimeter....
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Post#42 » by airchibundo507 » Sat May 31, 2008 6:46 pm

ambiglight wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



JR is incredibly under-rated. His versatility and energy is a perfect compliment to a combo guard like AI. Just like manu and tony parker are a good fit. I wish denver fans recognized the potential they have in their backcourt with AI and JR. Frankly I think the two of them have the potential to be an even better backcourt than chauncy and hamilton. They just need to give it a shot, while moving camby off the perimeter....


AI would find some way to keep the backcourt duo from functioning properly.
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Post#43 » by ambiglight » Sun Jun 1, 2008 7:09 am

airchibundo507 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



AI would find some way to keep the backcourt duo from functioning properly.


We won't know that for sure until they actually try that strategy. All that we know for sure is that in the moments AI and JR were in the backcourt together, Denver's offense was much more efficient and productive than when AI and AC were in the backcourt. JR is young. Denver needs to cultivate the talent they have and stop dreaming about 6'5 pgs that play great defense and can shoot the three. AI splitting time at the point and off guard position allows Denver to capitalize off of JRs scoring ability and natural ability to defend shooting guards unlike AC or Atkins or AI.
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Post#44 » by Nuggets 1 » Sun Jun 1, 2008 4:58 pm

Is Iverson a SG with PG tendencies or a PG with SG tendencies? I think the latter, but is it really that important? What matters more than that is whether a team is being managed well with the roster it has, not the one it hopes for in the future.

To see what a huge mistake it was to not designate AI as the PG and start JR Smith at 2-guard, consider the hard evidence of how the Nuggets did with AI and JR on the court versus with AI and AC on the court.

Look at all of the two-player plus-minus summaries for the Nuggets for 2007-08:

http://www.nba.com/statistics/lenovo/lenovo_sort.jsp?pcomb=2&season=22007&split=9&team=Nuggets

Starting from the top, you can look for the first combination you find which is two guards. The first one, the 5th one down, is the Allen Iverson / J.R. Smith combination. There were 2,523 points scored and 2,303 points given up when this lineup was on the court. So the +/- was +220.

The Carter/Iverson combo did not even finish in the top 50, so you have to go to the second page of combos to check it:

http://www.nba.com/statistics/lenovo/lenovo_sort.jsp?pcomb=2&season=22007&split=9&team=Nuggets&pager.offset=25

The 7th one down the page 2 list is the Anthony Carter / Allen Iverson combination. While those two players were on the court, the Nuggets scored 3,824 points and gave up 3,802 points, so the +/- was +22.

So the Iverson / Smith combo outscored opponents by 220 points, while the Carter / Iverson combo outscored opponents by 22 points, exactly 1/10 as many.

Now look at the per minute of court time plus minuses. This is found in the column on the far right. Going back to the other page, you can see that the Allen Iverson / J.R. Smith combination, for every minute it was on the court, on average gave the Nuggets an advantage of .209 points. So for every 10 minutes, the Nuggets outscored their opponents by 2.09 points with the Iverson / Smith combination. For every 30 minutes, the Nuggets outscored their opponents by 6.27 points with the Iverson / Smith combination.

For the Anthony Carter / Allen Iverson combination, for every minute it was on the court the Nuggets outscored their opponents by .013. So for every 10 minutes, the Nuggets outscored their opponents by 0.13 points with the Carter / Iverson combination. For every 30 minutes, the Nuggets outscored their opponents by 0.39 points with the Carter / Iverson combination, about 4/10 of a point (less than half a point).

The bottom line is that for every 30 minutes, the Nuggets had the following fates:

Allen Iverson / J.R. Smith in the backcourt 30 minutes: Denver outscored its opponents by 6.27 points.
Anthony Carter / Allen Iverson in the backcourt 30 minutes: Denver outscored its opponents by 0.39 points, less than 1/2 of a point.

The Iverson / Smith combination gave the Nuggets almost 6 points more of an advantage over the opponents than did the Carter / Iverson combination. The Carter / Iverson combination barely kept the Nuggets above water, while the Iverson / Smith combination gave the Nuggets a big advantage.

So you obviously wanted a lot more minutes of the Iverson / Smith combination than you wanted of the Carter / Iversion combination. Let's check to see how many minutes actually went to these combinations:

Iverson / Smith: 1,048 minutes
Carter / Iverson: 1,687 minutes

It was backwards to say the least. The clear conclusion after seeing a huge mistake such as this is that until the Nuggets get new coaches, they will most likely continue to make big mistakes that will cost them wins and make it impossible to win a playoff series, despite having one of the best lineups in the League on paper.
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Post#45 » by airchibundo507 » Sun Jun 1, 2008 11:30 pm

Nuggets 1 wrote:Is Iverson a SG with PG tendencies or a PG with SG tendencies? I think the latter, but is it really that important? What matters more than that is whether a team is being managed well with the roster it has, not the one it hopes for in the future.


AI has the size, quickness, speed, and dribbling of a point guard.

what lacks clearly lacks in comparison to a pass-first point guard is that AI is not a good passer...and most of that has to do with low ball IQ and selfishness. most of the assists AI gets are tranisition baskets or situations where AI drives to the basket looking for a shot, the defense collapses, he floats in mid-air when not able to get off a clean look, and forces a pass out to one of our shooters.

as for his passing deficiences:

- I know alley-oop passes are not an important part of the game, but a point guard who can throw good lob passes on a consistent basis has good accuracy as well as court vision. AI is not great at throwing lob passes--a lot of them are inaccurate and result in turnovers.
- AI cannot execute a pick-and-roll on a consistent basis. Regardless of his screener, AI always comes off the screen looking to penetrate and shoot and doesn't understand the extreme disadvantage a pick-and-roll puts defenses at when BOTH the screener and ballhandler are utilized.
-AI doesn't understand how to use his penetration to feed bigs for easy baskets. how many times did you see kobe attack the basket against the nuggets and find gasol for open lay-ups? Why does this rarely happen for the nuggets?
-AI almost never passes the ball for the sake of passing. Whenever he has the ball he is playing for either the score or assist. perimeter players who dominate the ball and eliminate any chances of "ball movement" lower the confidence and abilities of their teammates (see lebron james).

thus said...I have never seen a ball player more selfish than iverson. it's almost impossible for him to receive a pass and move the ball without having to put the ball on the floor. the guy is almost hesitant to feed melo...especially when he is in the post.

for some strange reason iverson seems to be more willing to pass the ball when smith is on the floor. iverson always looks for him and basically encourages him to take three-point jumpshots. but take smith off the floor and iverson continues to dominate the ball.

it's pretty obvious as to why an iverson-smith backcourt is a lot more effecient than an iverson-carter defensively and offensively. defensively carter can't match up with opposing shooting guards while smith can (smith really isn't a good man defender...but I'd take him on a shooting guard any day over carter). offensively carter is pretty much a non-factor. he doesn't set his teammates up for baskets. he doesn't cut to the basket when melo draws a double. and worst of all he can't shoot the ball or spread the floor. smith does all three.
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Post#46 » by ambiglight » Mon Jun 2, 2008 1:19 am

Nuggets 1 wrote:Is Iverson a SG with PG tendencies or a PG with SG tendencies? I think the latter, but is it really that important? What matters more than that is whether a team is being managed well with the roster it has, not the one it hopes for in the future.

To see what a huge mistake it was to not designate AI as the PG and start JR Smith at 2-guard, consider the hard evidence of how the Nuggets did with AI and JR on the court versus with AI and AC on the court.

Look at all of the two-player plus-minus summaries for the Nuggets for 2007-08:

http://www.nba.com/statistics/lenovo/lenovo_sort.jsp?pcomb=2&season=22007&split=9&team=Nuggets

Starting from the top, you can look for the first combination you find which is two guards. The first one, the 5th one down, is the Allen Iverson / J.R. Smith combination. There were 2,523 points scored and 2,303 points given up when this lineup was on the court. So the +/- was +220.

The Carter/Iverson combo did not even finish in the top 50, so you have to go to the second page of combos to check it:

http://www.nba.com/statistics/lenovo/lenovo_sort.jsp?pcomb=2&season=22007&split=9&team=Nuggets&pager.offset=25

The 7th one down the page 2 list is the Anthony Carter / Allen Iverson combination. While those two players were on the court, the Nuggets scored 3,824 points and gave up 3,802 points, so the +/- was +22.

So the Iverson / Smith combo outscored opponents by 220 points, while the Carter / Iverson combo outscored opponents by 22 points, exactly 1/10 as many.

Now look at the per minute of court time plus minuses. This is found in the column on the far right. Going back to the other page, you can see that the Allen Iverson / J.R. Smith combination, for every minute it was on the court, on average gave the Nuggets an advantage of .209 points. So for every 10 minutes, the Nuggets outscored their opponents by 2.09 points with the Iverson / Smith combination. For every 30 minutes, the Nuggets outscored their opponents by 6.27 points with the Iverson / Smith combination.

For the Anthony Carter / Allen Iverson combination, for every minute it was on the court the Nuggets outscored their opponents by .013. So for every 10 minutes, the Nuggets outscored their opponents by 0.13 points with the Carter / Iverson combination. For every 30 minutes, the Nuggets outscored their opponents by 0.39 points with the Carter / Iverson combination, about 4/10 of a point (less than half a point).

The bottom line is that for every 30 minutes, the Nuggets had the following fates:

Allen Iverson / J.R. Smith in the backcourt 30 minutes: Denver outscored its opponents by 6.27 points.
Anthony Carter / Allen Iverson in the backcourt 30 minutes: Denver outscored its opponents by 0.39 points, less than 1/2 of a point.

The Iverson / Smith combination gave the Nuggets almost 6 points more of an advantage over the opponents than did the Carter / Iverson combination. The Carter / Iverson combination barely kept the Nuggets above water, while the Iverson / Smith combination gave the Nuggets a big advantage.

So you obviously wanted a lot more minutes of the Iverson / Smith combination than you wanted of the Carter / Iversion combination. Let's check to see how many minutes actually went to these combinations:

Iverson / Smith: 1,048 minutes
Carter / Iverson: 1,687 minutes

It was backwards to say the least. The clear conclusion after seeing a huge mistake such as this is that until the Nuggets get new coaches, they will most likely continue to make big mistakes that will cost them wins and make it impossible to win a playoff series, despite having one of the best lineups in the League on paper.


Thanks for showing how the stats support JR and AI in the backcourt together.

I think its ridiculous that the contrast in productiveness was so stark both statistically and by mere observation, yet denver was willing to give up at least three games this season because of poor management of minutes.

And here folks are lambasting melo's desire to win or AI's willingness to pass. Here's something concrete and changeable that was not changed. Denver has no choice if they plan on keeping AI. JR has to play more minutes and AI has to shift to the point. Other than that AI is a shooting guard with PG tendencies. He's the prototypical combo guard that the likes of tony parker are molded after.
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Post#47 » by ambiglight » Mon Jun 2, 2008 1:57 am

airchibundo507 wrote:
Nuggets 1 wrote:Is Iverson a SG with PG tendencies or a PG with SG tendencies? I think the latter, but is it really that important? What matters more than that is whether a team is being managed well with the roster it has, not the one it hopes for in the future.


AI has the size, quickness, speed, and dribbling of a point guard.

what lacks clearly lacks in comparison to a pass-first point guard is that AI is not a good passer...and most of that has to do with low ball IQ and selfishness. most of the assists AI gets are tranisition baskets or situations where AI drives to the basket looking for a shot, the defense collapses, he floats in mid-air when not able to get off a clean look, and forces a pass out to one of our shooters.

as for his passing deficiences:

- I know alley-oop passes are not an important part of the game, but a point guard who can throw good lob passes on a consistent basis has good accuracy as well as court vision. AI is not great at throwing lob passes--a lot of them are inaccurate and result in turnovers.
- AI cannot execute a pick-and-roll on a consistent basis. Regardless of his screener, AI always comes off the screen looking to penetrate and shoot and doesn't understand the extreme disadvantage a pick-and-roll puts defenses at when BOTH the screener and ballhandler are utilized.
-AI doesn't understand how to use his penetration to feed bigs for easy baskets. how many times did you see kobe attack the basket against the nuggets and find gasol for open lay-ups? Why does this rarely happen for the nuggets?
-AI almost never passes the ball for the sake of passing. Whenever he has the ball he is playing for either the score or assist. perimeter players who dominate the ball and eliminate any chances of "ball movement" lower the confidence and abilities of their teammates (see lebron james).

thus said...I have never seen a ball player more selfish than iverson. it's almost impossible for him to receive a pass and move the ball without having to put the ball on the floor. the guy is almost hesitant to feed melo...especially when he is in the post.

for some strange reason iverson seems to be more willing to pass the ball when smith is on the floor. iverson always looks for him and basically encourages him to take three-point jumpshots. but take smith off the floor and iverson continues to dominate the ball.

it's pretty obvious as to why an iverson-smith backcourt is a lot more effecient than an iverson-carter defensively and offensively. defensively carter can't match up with opposing shooting guards while smith can (smith really isn't a good man defender...but I'd take him on a shooting guard any day over carter). offensively carter is pretty much a non-factor. he doesn't set his teammates up for baskets. he doesn't cut to the basket when melo draws a double. and worst of all he can't shoot the ball or spread the floor. smith does all three.


What you described earlier is simply a style of play at the PG position. He's a drive and kick PG, when he plays the position. His selfishness is really just aggressiveness. That's really effective when playing with other players that are equally as aggressive and show enough initiative to play off the primary ball-handler as opposed to making the ball-handler play off of them. Hence his eagerness to play with players like JR smith or kyle korver in the past as opposed to players like camby that just kinda hover around the same spot on the floor disrupting the floor balance.

AI use to live off of lob passes and pick and roll offenses in Philly. What changed was simply a change in personnel. AI learned early in denver unless he wants to average 4 or 5 turnovers a game throwing lobs and making high risk passes off of screens is a bad idea. So now he minimizes his turnovers by minimizing the number of passes that require the other player to have an above average IQ or athletic ability. Which is good. His drive and kick is much more effective and there is nothing wrong with using a screen to set up your own shot. Especially when you're shooting 45% and able to get to the free throw line as much as he does.

AI and kenyon play pretty well together. So did AI and nene. AI is a great guard to play with as a big man if you play close to the basket and have active hands. But if you're a stationary player with bad hands or a low IQ or like to stand around the perimeter, chances are AI's going to ignore you and make the pass to the perimeter player that will do something with the ball immediately or take the shot himself. AI is notorious for passing to the high percentage player as opposed to the player with the high percentage shot. In other words he feeds the hot hand, he's not going to make you a hot hand. If you noticed AI fed Melo plenty when he was hot but in those couple stretches where his game struggled AI put the team over feeding Melo his usual shots. There are pluses and minuses to this type of mentality. It ensures that something is going to happen whenever AI is involved in a play but you're right its really easy for weaker players and players that are struggling to get isolated out of the offense. Thats why AI as a pg should be on a short leash with the coach calling plays occasionally for specific role players to ensure they get their touches with him at the point. This is fine when you have an active coach but not so much for the laissez faire coaching system that denver currently has.

Keep in mind, its a waste of AI's talent to simply use him like the typical third tier pg. AI is used for his aggressiveness and ability to put the other team in foul trouble. Therefore whenever he is involved in a play its either to get a basket or exploit the defense. Passive AI is essentially useless. AIs role is to make plays and get buckets. There's nothing wrong with him doing his job. Clearly this worked with JR and not so much with AC.
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Post#48 » by airchibundo507 » Mon Jun 2, 2008 3:25 am

What you described earlier is simply a style of play at the PG position. He's a drive and kick PG, when he plays the position. His selfishness is really just aggressiveness. That's really effective when playing with other players that are equally as aggressive and show enough initiative to play off the primary ball-handler as opposed to making the ball-handler play off of them. Hence his eagerness to play with players like JR smith or kyle korver in the past as opposed to players like camby that just kinda hover around the same spot on the floor disrupting the floor balance.


great...a drive and kick PG on a roster with no shooters.

iverson's selfishness is really aggressiveness? what a pathetic argument. I watched paul in the NO-SA series. he was aggressive...yet he still looked to create easy baskets for his teammates before attempting to make a basket himself. his unselfish play only ended when the game came down to crunch time, west couldn't score in his iso, and paul was needed to take over the game.

AI is effective when his teammates show the initiative to play off a primary ball-handler? you could've stated this BS in a much simpler form: AI dominates the ball so much that his teammates are forced into playing off of him (see lebron james).

melo functions primarily in the post; an offense is at its best when it's coming from the inside out. melo should be the centerpiece of this offense...yet AI is the one clearly running it. and AI's way of running it is so dominant that it is even capable of phasing a top 3 scorer out of his own offense.

AI use to live off of lob passes and pick and roll offenses in Philly. What changed was simply a change in personnel. AI learned early in denver unless he wants to average 4 or 5 turnovers a game throwing lobs and making high risk passes off of screens is a bad idea. So now he minimizes his turnovers by minimizing the number of passes that require the other player to have an above average IQ or athletic ability. Which is good. His drive and kick is much more effective and there is nothing wrong with using a screen to set up your own shot. Especially when you're shooting 45% and able to get to the free throw line as much as he does.


AI lived off of lob passes and pick-and-rolls in philly? then WTF isn't he doing it in denver? I saw andre miller going to philadeplphia and right off the bat creating easy shots for his teammates with lob passes, utilizing their athleticism...miller could do the same in denver with this exact same personnel (9 apg in denver before AI trade). yet AI can't seem to create baskets for anyone on the nugget roster besides smith???

melo is simply the best player in the NBA at setting himself up for easy basket without the basketball. yet iverson CAN'T seem to grasp this concept. iverson gives the ball to melo in isolation...and that's it.

Keep in mind, its a waste of AI's talent to simply use him like the typical third tier pg. AI is used for his aggressiveness and ability to put the other team in foul trouble. Therefore whenever he is involved in a play its either to get a basket or exploit the defense. Passive AI is essentially useless. AIs role is to make plays and get buckets. There's nothing wrong with him doing his job. Clearly this worked with JR and not so much with AC.


"passive AI" does not exist.

he may draw a lot of fouls on his opponents...but a reason for his inconsistentcy is that he depends way too much on fouls. fouls are based on a certain referee's perspective.

he may be "aggressive"...but it is clearly at the expense of his teammates.

it's sad seeing that AI has basically the same abilities that paul has...yet seems to clearly lack in ball IQ. let's be honest...both player can get to the rim effortlessly. both players can hit their mid-range jumpers at a high percentage. yet paul goes to the rim looking to draw the extra defender and looking to feed his teammates for the easy basket. AI? not a chance. iverson goes to the basket looking to score or draw the foul: passing is a last resort.

especially with iverson at freakin 32 years old...he should be able to understand that this offense should run through melo. AI would be perfect at playing off of melo's double (see tony parker with tim duncan). all we need is shooters...
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Post#49 » by ambiglight » Mon Jun 2, 2008 5:04 am

airchibundo507 wrote:
great...a drive and kick PG on a roster with no shooters.

iverson's selfishness is really aggressiveness? what a pathetic argument. I watched paul in the NO-SA series. he was aggressive...yet he still looked to create easy baskets for his teammates before attempting to make a basket himself. his unselfish play only ended when the game came down to crunch time, west couldn't score in his iso, and paul was needed to take over the game.

AI is effective when his teammates show the initiative to play off a primary ball-handler? you could've stated this BS in a much simpler form: AI dominates the ball so much that his teammates are forced into playing off of him (see lebron james).

melo functions primarily in the post; an offense is at its best when it's coming from the inside out. melo should be the centerpiece of this offense...yet AI is the one clearly running it. and AI's way of running it is so dominant that it is even capable of phasing a top 3 scorer out of his own offense.


AI lived off of lob passes and pick-and-rolls in philly? then WTF isn't he doing it in denver? I saw andre miller going to philadeplphia and right off the bat creating easy shots for his teammates with lob passes, utilizing their athleticism...miller could do the same in denver with this exact same personnel (9 apg in denver before AI trade). yet AI can't seem to create baskets for anyone on the nugget roster besides smith???

melo is simply the best player in the NBA at setting himself up for easy basket without the basketball. yet iverson CAN'T seem to grasp this concept. iverson gives the ball to melo in isolation...and that's it.


"passive AI" does not exist.

he may draw a lot of fouls on his opponents...but a reason for his inconsistentcy is that he depends way too much on fouls. fouls are based on a certain referee's perspective.

he may be "aggressive"...but it is clearly at the expense of his teammates.

it's sad seeing that AI has basically the same abilities that paul has...yet seems to clearly lack in ball IQ. let's be honest...both player can get to the rim effortlessly. both players can hit their mid-range jumpers at a high percentage. yet paul goes to the rim looking to draw the extra defender and looking to feed his teammates for the easy basket. AI? not a chance. iverson goes to the basket looking to score or draw the foul: passing is a last resort.

especially with iverson at freakin 32 years old...he should be able to understand that this offense should run through melo. AI would be perfect at playing off of melo's double (see tony parker with tim duncan). all we need is shooters...


I reject the premise of your argument, so its not likely that i would agree with your conclusions.

AI is a combo guard that has the ability to pass. Paul is a pure PG that has the ability to score. AI uses his speed and ability to finish while drawing contact to score and create shots for team-mates. A momentum player on the level of kobe at creating his own shot. Paul uses his ball handling ability and the raw athleticism of his team-mates to create offense. His team-mates depend on him and he depends on them to put points on the board.Two different styles of basketball capitalizing on their different respective skill sets. I enjoy both styles of play, but neither is superior to the other. Both have advantages and disadvantages, working against some opponents and failing against others.

AI's drive and kick works great with shooters, hence our collective aversion to AC being in the backcourt with AI when an excellent shooter like JR is available. There's a reason why denver always looked good when the second unit included willing shooters like najera, jr and kleiza.

I will agree with you that its a bad strategy to over-utilize AI in the beginning of games when his aggressiveness is most needed to close quarters and in the fourth. But that's a coaching issue. AI should be running the point starting quarters and should shift over to off guard spot in the fourth. Unfortunately the coaching philosophy of this team seems to follow the popular opinion of denver fans, which is that AI is a pure shooting guard and you need a physically strong pass first point guard with no offensive presence at his side. I imagine that this myth came from his sixers days when they went to the finals with eric snow at the point. While eric snow was in fact that type of PG, people forget that Aaron Mckie played a huge role that season in the off guard role and AI as the primary ball handler when Eric snow sat. The likes of JR is clearly better than Mckie so imagine how good a backcourt denver potentially has if they reject conventional wisdom and use the pieces they already have available to them.

As for playing off of a primary ball player. Lots of teams do that. In fact most of the successful teams out there take their cues from the primary ball handler. Boston and Dallas are about the only contending teams where the primary ball handler is expected to take their cues from other players. The role is one of leadership. Sometimes you have bad followers and sometimes you have bad leaders. Denver has a combination of bad floor leadership and bad role players. AC is not a good floor leader. And AI's leadership is undermined by the expectation that he second guess his style of play merely to appease a single player. The role players are bad because expect their floor leaders to adjust their play to accommodate them when in fact it should be the other way around. When melo is doing his jab step thing, rather than setting melo up to fail by simply watching him, they should be cutting to the basket or occupying their man otherwise to prevent low risk doubling on melo. When AI is driving to the basket, the big men should be positioning themselves to receive the dump pass or grab an offensive rebound. When JR is on fire, somebody needs to be setting hard screens off the ball to free him up for an open three. Unfortunately, the focus is always on either AI or Melo that people ignore the impact of the other four positions on the floor underperforming.

As for melo being the centerpiece of the offense, that's part of the problem. Melo is a great offensive player but he has flaws in his game that prevent him from being the kind of guy you feed the ball to every time down the court. His judgment is poor and is turnover prone in high pressure situations. His offense reminds me of barkley, not in style but in productivity. He scores in bunches but when you're playing with scoring point guard like KJ or in this case AI, you have to accept the fact that you are one of several options on the court and in fact, in many cases other players will be preferable as the primary option due to line-ups or quite simply their performance in that particular game. When kleiza or JR is hot, there's a reason why AI's assists go up and his scoring goes down. AI realizes that the hot hand should be the centerpiece. I think melo is going to watch a couple game tapes this summer and the coaches are going to explain to him how its in everybodys benefit for the team to abandon this notion of a single player being the 'centerpiece' when equally as gifted and even more prolific scorers are on the team as well.

(BTW tony parker does not play off of doubles on duncan. teams don't leave TP open unless he's on the three point line. TP is just as aggressive as AI in actuality and passes less than AI does. The real difference is that AI is simply better all around and Tim duncan actually plays around the basket and can create his own shot in the flow of the offense. Whereas AI has a center that sits at the top of the key, cant finish layups or create his own shot. And K-mart is rarely a primary option behind a "small" forward and cast of perimeter players that tend to settle for iso-jumpers in the half-court set. In no way are TP and AI remotely in the same contexts)

finally 7 assists a game from the two guard spot is the highest assist average in the league. if AI ran the point primarily, he'd be a 20 and 10 guy. and his assist average has been pretty consistent throughout his stint in denver despite JR being relegated to the 8th man role for much of the year, so clearly he is getting other players beside JR involved regardless of the fact hes not even denvers point guard. its pretty obvious that AI and JR being a successful backcourt isnt a knock on AI for playing so well with JR over everybody else but is a knock on the coaching staff for not realizing the chemistry of this team should be starting with their backcourt, not some force fit lob and pick and roll offensive set between a two guard and small forward. lols. trust that if this takes the first step toward tapping into its true potential by playing JR major minutes, a lot of problems will correct themselves including what you perceive as a lack of touches for melo. maybe JR will start throwing those lobs to melo and pick and roll off his soft screens from the shooting guard position like everyone expects AI too.
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Post#50 » by airchibundo507 » Mon Jun 2, 2008 3:13 pm

AI is a combo guard that has the ability to pass. Paul is a pure PG that has the ability to score. AI uses his speed and ability to finish while drawing contact to score and create shots for team-mates. A momentum player on the level of kobe at creating his own shot. Paul uses his ball handling ability and the raw athleticism of his team-mates to create offense. His team-mates depend on him and he depends on them to put points on the board.Two different styles of basketball capitalizing on their different respective skill sets. I enjoy both styles of play, but neither is superior to the other. Both have advantages and disadvantages, working against some opponents and failing against others.


AI creates shot for his teammates? maybe off a few drive-and-kicks and baskets in transition (LOL...I remember in the laker series where it was a two-on-one fastbreak...melo and AI verse one laker opponents. AI had the ball and could've fed melo for a wide open lay-up...but instead decided to plow into his defender for an offensive foul. that's why he's the most selfish player in the league). he rarely finds easy shots for teammates...especially when their in the paint.

and AI is mainly a drive-and-kick point guard because of his selfishness. he goes to the basket trying to make a basket or draw a foul. if he goes to the basket, can't get off a clean look, and doesn't hear a whistle blow, he floats in mid-air trying to figure out what to do with the ball. since there is no passing angle to a player in the post (attempting a pass to the post in this situation usually warrants a turnover), he is forced to kick the ball out to the perimeter.

here's what separates AI from paul: AI's style of play encourages isolation. the most important reason is that AI can't run a pick-and-roll right (as I have previously discussed). IMO a pick-and-roll is the easiest way for a perimeter player to get into the lane and stifle a defense. every perimeter star scorer/passer is capable of using it properly (nash with amare; williams with boozer; paul with chandler; parker with duncan; kobe with gasol; etc). a pick-and-roll encourages some sort of off-ball movement (from the screener) and paul's teammates move around off paul's penetration expecting to receive a pass.

in AI's case...you will watch him dribble with the ball and waste up time on the shot clock trying to take his defender one-on-one and cross him up. his style of play--dribbling with the ball and wasting time on the shot clock--indirectly enourages his teammates to stand around and watch iverson. when he gets to the basket his own teammates expect him to take the shot instead of making the pass (the game that comes to mind was a few months ago against the jazz. the game was tied and the nuggets had the last possession. AI attacked the basket and popped it out to melo. melo didn't expect the pass and took a rushed jumpshot from 15 feet out. it missed and the game went into overtime. the point with this situation is that if paul had been playing instead of iverson, melo would have expected a pass and would have been more prepared to take that jumper.)

AI's drive and kick works great with shooters, hence our collective aversion to AC being in the backcourt with AI when an excellent shooter like JR is available. There's a reason why denver always looked good when the second unit included willing shooters like najera, jr and kleiza.


am I arguing against this???

there's no denying that shooters make this nugget offense a lot more efficient. an off-ball line-up of carter, k-mart, and camby can't spread the floor and are a reason why the paint gets clogged; thus, making it easier to double melo in the post and stop AI's penetration (a la lakers series).

As for melo being the centerpiece of the offense, that's part of the problem. Melo is a great offensive player but he has flaws in his game that prevent him from being the kind of guy you feed the ball to every time down the court. His judgment is poor and is turnover prone in high pressure situations.


melo is a gifted passer from the post. he can draw a double team at will. the only thing missing is spacing. melo has only played with one or lethal shooters his entire career in the NBA (and both shooters lenard and smith didn't play at the same time).

it's the lack of spacing which is causing melo to be turnover-prone. give him two or three shooters whenever he is on the court and he is easily the centerpiece of a contending franchise.

I think melo is going to watch a couple game tapes this summer and the coaches are going to explain to him how its in everybodys benefit for the team to abandon this notion of a single player being the 'centerpiece' when equally as gifted and even more prolific scorers are on the team as well.


and who will discuss this brilliant notion with AI?

(BTW tony parker does not play off of doubles on duncan. teams don't leave TP open unless he's on the three point line. TP is just as aggressive as AI in actuality and passes less than AI does. The real difference is that AI is simply better all around and Tim duncan actually plays around the basket and can create his own shot in the flow of the offense. Whereas AI has a center that sits at the top of the key, cant finish layups or create his own shot. And K-mart is rarely a primary option behind a "small" forward and cast of perimeter players that tend to settle for iso-jumpers in the half-court set. In no way are TP and AI remotely in the same contexts)


I'm not sure if you watched the entire SA-NO series...but each game the spurs tried to manufacture their offense off of duncan's double. duncan drew the double in the post...duncan kicked it out...the spurs would penetrate on a stifled defense...and they'd either get a lay-up or a wide-open jumpshot.

other than that...parker gets a lot of his looks off of pick-and-rolls (but alas...iverson doesn't understand how to run one). the parker-duncan pick-and-roll is especially effective...as well as the ginobili-duncan pick-and-roll.

what duncan does for parker is that parker doesn't see the double teams; parker doesn't see nearly as much defensive pressure as a guy with his penetrating abilities should get. teams are more concerned with trying to stop duncan than with trying to stop parker.

that's exactly why I brought up the spurs. teams are more concerned on stopping melo than AI. it's melo whose drawing a double or a help defender every time he touches the ball in the post. that's why AI and the rest of the nugget offense should play OFF of melo. it's common knowledge...welcome to the game of basketball.

finally 7 assists a game from the two guard spot is the highest assist average in the league. if AI ran the point primarily, he'd be a 20 and 10 guy. and his assist average has been pretty consistent throughout his stint in denver despite JR being relegated to the 8th man role for much of the year, so clearly he is getting other players beside JR involved regardless of the fact hes not even denvers point guard.


Y A W N . . .

the nuggets have no point guard. iverson brings the ball up the floor for every time that carter brings the ball up the floor. exactly when carter crosses the halfcourt line who does he pass to? iverson.

iverson IS the team's point guard. he dominates the ball more than anybody on the freaking floor for 40 minutes a night. you shouldn't praise him for getting 7 assists a night. any perimeter scorer who dominates the ball as much as him for 40 minutes a night should get as much assists (again...see lebron james).

LMAO at iverson would be a 20 and 10 guy. hell would freeze over before the guy would allow himself to dip below 25 ppg. my guess is he'll never get over 8 apg for a season in his career.
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Post#51 » by ambiglight » Tue Jun 3, 2008 5:31 am

AI creates shot for his teammates? maybe off a few drive-and-kicks and baskets in transition

Yes. Thats his role as the shooting guard on this team.

and AI is mainly a drive-and-kick point guard because of his selfishness.

Your attributing a negative motive to his style of play doesnt make it any less effective. Whether he's a drive and kick pg because hes aggressive or because he's selfish it results in the same thing. A shot that has a 45% chance of going in, an open look for a team-mate, and/or the other team committing a foul. AI is an offensive machine which other players have clearly patterned themselves after trying to achieve the versatility at the shooting guard position that AI has. No other shooting guard averages as many assists as AI whilst going to the line as much and scoring as many points. Its not broken so he's not going to fix it just to please fans that think shooting guards and small forwards can only co-exist if they pick and roll off each other and throw lobs at the basket.

here's what separates AI from paul: AI's style of play encourages isolation. the most important reason is that AI can't run a pick-and-roll right (as I have previously discussed). IMO a pick-and-roll is the easiest way for a perimeter player to get into the lane and stifle a defense.

I like this quote because you actually supported your opinion with some logic. But I'll rebut by simply pointing out that the pick and roll is one of many effectively attacking a defense. But like any play it has it advantages and disadvantages. Its an assumption on your part that AI passing on the majority of screens is more effective than AI simply using the screen to escape coverage and get an open shot. In my experience playing the point, Im more prone to use the pick and roll with certain players than others and against certain defenses. When i have a weak defender in front of me that is over-playing the shot, I would rather attack the defender than get a screen which brings a bigger or better defender on to me and force me to make a pass that might not be there. If I have a great defender with size, I rather use the pick because the screen takes the good defender out of the play allows me two good options of either passing the ball or shooting the rock. And thats just considering the defense quality not even whether the defender goes under the screen or over the screen or there is a switch or no switch at all. I also have to consider whether the player that set the pick did it properly and whether that player is capable of both catching the ball and finishing once they receive it at whatever spot necessary. Unfortunately the best players on this team at setting screens properly and finishing were either injured or never given the greenlight as primary scorers to actually initiate that type of play. Those players being najera, klieza, martin and nene. In that case I would make the same decision AI has made. Leave the screen and rolls to the PG and do my job as shooting guard, attacking the basket, and passing out to the wings or dump passing the ball when scoring is no longer an option. I suspect that if AI actually moved to the point they would certainly expect him to use more of his offensive options in the course of the game. As it stands, his job is to generate offense through his ability to get to the basket, not facilitate the offense through a single player from the two guard position.

Also I'd like to point out that you're overly-focused on denver becoming a two-man offense when with all the options they have on offense, they would be better off focusing on motion OFF the ball, not just running isolations and two-man pick and rolls between AI and Melo. Clearly AI and melo are not lacking for touches. Its the other players that need to be more involved. There should be screens off the ball which is really what teams like utah, LA and san antonio thrive off of, not mere screen and rolls. Denver doesnt do that unless they are screening for Melo to receive a lob from camby at teh top of the key which only works a quarter of the time. This team needs to shift toward screening for players like JR and najera to get shots on the outside and for Kmart and camby to get easy uncontested shots under the basket.

melo is a gifted passer from the post.

you dont need to be gifted to pass out of a double team. all you have to be is willing. melo is not a willing passer. couple that with having a center who rarely moves toward the basket off theperimeter and a pg that has no offensive presence whatsoever and you only have two other players on the court that are scoring options once Melo is doubled and both those players are always marked whether melo is doubled is or not. the double always comes from the players least likely to score and in this case that would be camby and carter. as melo has more confidence in his ability to beat the double team than he does camby or carter to hit the shot, melo constantly proves those that believe he as a low IQ right when bulldozes the defender, travels, coughs the ball up or throws up some outlandish shot merely because he doesnt want to pass the ball to carter or camby.

Finally AI should be the PG because Denver currently lacks a player at that position that can balance passing with scoring. AI as combo guard is perfectly suited for that role. Players like JR, Najera, Nene, Kleiza and Martin will benefit. While players that need other players like Camby will probably benefit the most when JR goes to teh bench and AI shifts to the off-guard position. This will balance the offense at teh expense of carmelo's scoring, unless he rediscovers his three point shot or commits to rebounding like he can. Its for the good of the team and great players are always willing to sacrifice. Melo has a great role model in AI with regards to sacrificing points for the betterment of the team. I expect that Melo will evolve as a player with AI at the point because of this. Becoming a multi-dimensional player that dominates in several aspects of the game much in the way AI has and does.
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Post#52 » by airchibundo507 » Tue Jun 3, 2008 2:33 pm

Yes. Thats his role as the shooting guard on this team.


quick question: "If Melo, Klieza, and Najera step up on the floor...is there any clear distinction between which of the three is playing shooting guard, small forward, and power forward?"

you could look at their defensive assignments and assume. you could look at their positioning on offense and assume.

the point with this scenario is that allen iverson is the team's point guard. anthony carter isn't our team's point guard--unless you count dribbling the ball up halfcourt on half the possessions he is on the court as having anything to do with being a point guard in our offense. when carter passes the halfcourt line...where does the ball go to on the majority of possessions? AI. when AI crosses the halfcourt line guess who keeps the ball the majority of the time? AI.

I don't understand why you seem to be falling in love with this logic that "iverson averages 7 apg as a shooting guard". any perimeter player who dominates the ball as much as AI does for over 40 minutes in a course of a game will at AT LEAST average 6 or 7 apg over the season. it's the same situation with lebron james. it's the same situation with gilbert arenas. these players are all alike in the fact that they are ballstoppers on the perimeter for their offenses (I'll let lebron slide since his team clearly lacks offensive talent). whenever the ballf comes to arenas and iverson, they RARELY pass the ball for the sake of passing. they put the ball on the floor and are playing for the shot...passing FOR THE ASSIST as a last resort.

iverson's dribbling on the perimeter encourages his teammates to stand around. it's like watching an AND-1 show. do you really see any other perimeter player dribble around as much as him? he's looking for his own shot at the expense of his teammates.

A shot that has a 45% chance of going in, an open look for a team-mate, and/or the other team committing a foul. AI is an offensive machine which other players have clearly patterned themselves after trying to achieve the versatility at the shooting guard position that AI has.


offensive machine my @ss. he is a black hole on offense...

he is an inconsistent volume shooter.

even when his shot his off...he will continue to ignore his teammates and take unwarranted forced shots.

Melo has a great role model in AI with regards to sacrificing points for the betterment of the team.


LMAO...you are delusional, kid.
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Post#53 » by ambiglight » Wed Jun 4, 2008 12:18 am

airchibundo507 wrote:
Yes. Thats his role as the shooting guard on this team.


quick question: "If Melo, Klieza, and Najera step up on the floor...is there any clear distinction between which of the three is playing shooting guard, small forward, and power forward?"

you could look at their defensive assignments and assume. you could look at their positioning on offense and assume.

the point with this scenario is that allen iverson is the team's point guard. anthony carter isn't our team's point guard--unless you count dribbling the ball up halfcourt on half the possessions he is on the court as having anything to do with being a point guard in our offense. when carter passes the halfcourt line...where does the ball go to on the majority of possessions? AI. when AI crosses the halfcourt line guess who keeps the ball the majority of the time? AI.

I don't understand why you seem to be falling in love with this logic that "iverson averages 7 apg as a shooting guard". any perimeter player who dominates the ball as much as AI does for over 40 minutes in a course of a game will at AT LEAST average 6 or 7 apg over the season. it's the same situation with lebron james. it's the same situation with gilbert arenas. these players are all alike in the fact that they are ballstoppers on the perimeter for their offenses (I'll let lebron slide since his team clearly lacks offensive talent). whenever the ballf comes to arenas and iverson, they RARELY pass the ball for the sake of passing. they put the ball on the floor and are playing for the shot...passing FOR THE ASSIST as a last resort.

iverson's dribbling on the perimeter encourages his teammates to stand around. it's like watching an AND-1 show. do you really see any other perimeter player dribble around as much as him? he's looking for his own shot at the expense of his teammates.

A shot that has a 45% chance of going in, an open look for a team-mate, and/or the other team committing a foul. AI is an offensive machine which other players have clearly patterned themselves after trying to achieve the versatility at the shooting guard position that AI has.


offensive machine my @ss. he is a black hole on offense...

he is an inconsistent volume shooter.

even when his shot his off...he will continue to ignore his teammates and take unwarranted forced shots.

Melo has a great role model in AI with regards to sacrificing points for the betterment of the team.


LMAO...you are delusional, kid.


I have played and watched basketball most of my life so its pretty easy for me to identify player's roles in the offense.

Its pretty obvious that carter is the pg. He facilitates the offense and brings the ball up the court.

I dont define the PG position as the player who dribbles the most or has possession of the ball the most.

Otherwise manu, wade, and kobe would all be considered pgs when they aren't.

The problem with the current pg is that he is essentially worthless because his facilitation of the offense is of little consequence. He doesnt make the game easier for anyone, and rarely makes any real decisions that affect the flow of the offense. This speaks to the weakness of the PG not the problem with the shooting guard compensating for the weakness at that position. Also I think you're confused about what the role of a shooting guard is. A shooting guard is supposed to look for his shot and its perfectly normal for the off guard to pass as a second option. What isn't normal is for an off guard to be expected to average 10 assists a game. In which case I think its pretty impressive for a player to average more of any stat than the player on the team that is primarily responsible for that particular job. Hence it is impressive that Kidd averaged more rebounds than a center. Your argument would be more valid if in fact AI was the point guard of this team because then it would be a reasonable expectation that given the minutes he plays he should be amongst the leaders in assists for pgs. But as it stands, he leads shooting guards in assist per game and per 48.

As such I see a clear upgrade at the point shifting AI over to that position and moving JR to the shooting guard spot. The proof is in the pudding. An earlier poster gave the stats to support this position, so honestly this shouldnt be about my credibility as a poster but the credibility of what the evidence suggests.
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Post#54 » by airchibundo507 » Wed Jun 4, 2008 1:37 am

Its pretty obvious that carter is the pg. He facilitates the offense and brings the ball up the court.

I dont define the PG position as the player who dribbles the most or has possession of the ball the most.


carter facilitates the offense? now I've heard it all.

carter is similar to the derek fisher's and jason william's of the NBA in that he brings the ball up the floor, decides where the ball should go, and then moves the hell out of the way. he is just a lot more useless in the fact that he can't shoot the ball to save his life and in all reality he lacks the ability of a starting point guard in the league (since he was a 3rd string PG before the season started).

A shooting guard is supposed to look for his shot and its perfectly normal for the off guard to pass as a second option. What isn't normal is for an off guard to be expected to average 10 assists a game.


allen iverson is not our shooting guard. carter is an invisible man in this offense...the little amount of assists he gets come from transition.

of course allen iverson is not a natural point guard. if a kobe or wade were on our team...it'd probably be a no-brainer to have them start at the two and have carter start at point in place of an injured atkins.

but here's where iverson is a liability. he can't guard 2-guards...and he's too selfish to play the point. if iverson were the "unselfish" and "self-sacrificing" guard for which you speak, george karl would've been fired the first day he didn't start a backcourt of smith and iverson together.

with smith in the line-up instead of carter...the line-up is better because smith can spread the floor and can take touches away from black hole iverson.
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Post#55 » by ambiglight » Wed Jun 4, 2008 6:24 pm

airchibundo507 wrote:
Its pretty obvious that carter is the pg. He facilitates the offense and brings the ball up the court.

I dont define the PG position as the player who dribbles the most or has possession of the ball the most.


carter facilitates the offense? now I've heard it all.

carter is similar to the derek fisher's and jason william's of the NBA in that he brings the ball up the floor, decides where the ball should go, and then moves the hell out of the way. he is just a lot more useless in the fact that he can't shoot the ball to save his life and in all reality he lacks the ability of a starting point guard in the league (since he was a 3rd string PG before the season started).

A shooting guard is supposed to look for his shot and its perfectly normal for the off guard to pass as a second option. What isn't normal is for an off guard to be expected to average 10 assists a game.


allen iverson is not our shooting guard. carter is an invisible man in this offense...the little amount of assists he gets come from transition.

of course allen iverson is not a natural point guard. if a kobe or wade were on our team...it'd probably be a no-brainer to have them start at the two and have carter start at point in place of an injured atkins.

but here's where iverson is a liability. he can't guard 2-guards...and he's too selfish to play the point. if iverson were the "unselfish" and "self-sacrificing" guard for which you speak, george karl would've been fired the first day he didn't start a backcourt of smith and iverson together.

with smith in the line-up instead of carter...the line-up is better because smith can spread the floor and can take touches away from black hole iverson.


criticizing AI doesnt bother me so you're not getting a rise out of me by doing so. you're essentially agreeing with me not but simply sprinkling little quips to insult AI's game.

I frankly dont care. I agree that AI is not a great fit for this team just for different reasons, which are more critical of the organization than of him as a player.

I already said AC is a weak point guard and his facilitation is worthless, that doesnt change the fact that he is the point guard and allen iverson is the shooting guard.

I agree that AI can't guard good shooting guards, which is why on this team which lacks a big point guard that can defend and spread the floor with a three point shot, he should play the point and JR should be their starting off guard. But I would also like to point out that there are very few good defensive oriented guards out there, especially guards that can score. Ray Allen, Steve Nash, Baron Davis, etc are all weak defenders. Teams either get a defensive minded guard or small forward with those abilities to compensate or they set up the defense so that those weaknesses are minimized.

In all actuality denver has a great scheme to minimize the damage from poor on the ball perimeter defense. They have a solid interior, so they encourage teams to drive toward the help defense. The problem with this strategy is it leads to short offensive rebounds and second chance shots for the opposing teams when denvers bigs dont help camby clean-up the glass on missed shots. It is also vulnerable to pick and roll offenses and teams that pass the ball extremely well. As each of the top teams do both of those things extremely well denver has problems with certain types of teams whether they are good or bad. they have a tough time with teams that crash the offensive boards, screen away from the ball, and pass. Karl made the smart adjustment midway through the season and started using a zone to eliminate those problems but created matchup problems with teams that could shoot the three very well. about the only option they have left to become defensively better with this roster is too simply put more length on the court by starting JR which has the added benefit of increasing the positive point differential between denvers backcourt and that of opposing teams.

and no karl was not going to be fired for putting jr on the bench. JR had off the court troubles that justified disciplining him. karl went to far by waiting until they were in danger of missing the play-offs before playing JR significant minutes. the proper discipline would have been for him to lose his starting position until mid december while playing 20 minutes a game. and once he met established criteria, his minutes would increase to about 35 minutes a game. At which point sometime after all star break he should have been starting again and playing 35 to 38 minutes a game.

I am certain that with JR in the backcourt with AI, this line-up would have been good for at least 3 to 5 more wins. A 53 to 55 win season would have pushed them out of the eighth seed to possibly as high as the fourth seed. They could have beat New Orleans or Houston and we wouldnt even be having this conversation.

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