What's the biggest mismatch in this NBA Finals?

[shobe_81]

Is Patterns on crack or is he a undercover Lakers hater?

[Patterns]

Is Patterns on crack or is he a undercover Lakers hater?

Well, why don't you try to argue against my points rather than accusing me of doing crack.

I mean, I am not a blind homer fan who thinks that my team is the best ever and will crush anyone in the way. I actually watch the game, pick out things that I notice and try to match them with the opposing team to see if we have an advantage or not.

I've watched every Celtic game this post season and some of the negative things said about them are blown out of proportions. Some of the things like a bad bench, choking KG, Ray Allen slump, Rondo's jumpshot, being old, playing 7 games every series, road troubles, blah blah blah aren't really that big of a deal. Even with all of that, they beat the defending East Champions, an experienced Detroit team, and made it to the Finals.

[eatyourchildren]

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See, the thing is, Celtic fans aren't afraid of those 2 things and they have reason not to. Kobe hasn't played well at all vs the Celtic defense this year and Ray Allen always brings his best D against Kobe.

The Celtic bench, imo, is better than the Lakers bench because of James Posey. Posey is better than anyone that comes out of the Lakers bench and yes, that inclues The Machine.

Farmar has been shaky in the playoffs and he can no longer hit the 3 like he did in the beginning of the season. Plus, his defense has been absolutely terrible. Turiaf, while I love, is a foul machine. Sasha plays pesky defense but he has trouble against bigger and stronger guys like Kyle Korver. Luke is trash and shows up sometimes. Most of the times, Lakers fans want his head. Just read some of the gamethreads when he played.

1. Um, Ray's best D this year won't be able to stop Kobe. I'm sorry. but Ray on his best day isn't as good as Bowen or AK on a mediocre one. And we both know what happened in both of those series. Ray's ankles are shredded and you're not being objective if you think Ray can at all keep up better than Bowen did. And Kobe still shot 53% in that series.

2. Bench matters, and the reason why the Celtics have played two 7-game series and one 6-game series is because Doc Rivers stopped believing in his bench, which in turned caused them to doubt themselves. Cassell isn't even doing anything anymore. If the Lakers bench has been so bad, how is it that they were able to cut two high-teens deficits in half on the strength of their unit alone? Posey is better than 4-5 guys combined? You're smoking something.

It'd be one thing to harp on the SF matchup between Vlad and Pierce, and something altogether different to question the ability of Kobe to take over a game, or to assert that Celtics' bench is better than the Lakers' bench, when the Celtics bench has been a non-factor in 95% of their playoff games.

Patterns, you are being ridiculous.

[EHL]

Yes, and you don't give Kobe nearly as much space as you give LeBron because Kobe isn't as strong or fast. He can't penetrate with the speed or force of LeBron. When Pierce is on Kobe, I expect Pierce to play him really close and physical. He won't get the looks LeBron got.

You're going to be sorely surprised if you think Pierce stands a chance in hell of limited Kobe when no one else this postseason, including a far superior defender in Bowen, wasn't able to.

[magicfan4life05]

VS.

[Patterns]

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1. Um, Ray's best D this year won't be able to stop Kobe. I'm sorry. but Ray on his best day isn't as good as Bowen or AK on a mediocre one. And we both know what happened in both of those series. Ray's ankles are shredded and you're not being objective if you think Ray can at all keep up better than Bowen did. And Kobe still shot 53% in that series.

2. Bench matters, and the reason why the Celtics have played two 7-game series and one 6-game series is because Doc Rivers stopped believing in his bench, which in turned caused them to doubt themselves. Cassell isn't even doing anything anymore. If the Lakers bench has been so bad, how is it that they were able to cut two high-teens deficits in half on the strength of their unit alone? Posey is better than 4-5 guys combined? You're smoking something.

It'd be one thing to harp on the SF matchup between Vlad and Pierce, and something altogether different to question the ability of Kobe to take over a game, or to assert that Celtics' bench is better than the Lakers' bench, when the Celtics bench has been a non-factor in 95% of their playoff games.

Patterns, you are being ridiculous.

1. Guarding Kobe isn't one man's job. The fact is, during the regular season, they defended Kobe extremely well. Yes, Allen's defense isn't even close to Bowen's but in every game I've seen the Celtics this year, they've stopped all the big name players when they needed to. There is a reason why Lebron did so poorly against the Celtics and it's not just his poor jumpshot. Defense is the Celtics' pride and you can't take that away from them.

2.Doc Rivers didn't stop believing in his bench. He just played with matchups and shorten his rotation. I expect him to play House, Tony Allen, Davis more in the Finals. I didn't say that Posey = 4 or 5 guys. I said he's the best player coming off the bench in this series. Heck, even PJ brown does something good when he comes off the bench. If it wasn't for PJ, the Cavs would have won game 7. Boston's bench is one of the best benches in the NBA and is terribly underrated.

3.The Celtics and KG choking in the 4th quarter is blown out of proportion. They always play well but not fantastic. They also outscored the Pistons 29 to 13 in Detroit in game 6 in the 4th quarter.

[eatyourchildren]

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1. Guarding Kobe isn't one man's job. The fact is, during the regular season, they defended Kobe extremely well. Yes, Allen's defense isn't even close to Bowen's but in every game I've seen the Celtics this year, they've stopped all the big name players when they needed to. There is a reason why Lebron did so poorly against the Celtics and it's not just his poor jumpshot. Defense is the Celtics' pride and you can't take that away from them.

2.Doc Rivers didn't stop believing in his bench. He just played with matchups and shorten his rotation. I expect him to play House, Tony Allen, Davis more in the Finals. I didn't say that Posey = 4 or 5 guys. I said he's the best player coming off the bench in this series. Heck, even PJ brown does something good when he comes off the bench. If it wasn't for PJ, the Cavs would have won game 7. Boston's bench is one of the best benches in the NBA and is terribly underrated.

3.The Celtics and KG choking in the 4th quarter is blown out of proportion. They always play well but not fantastic. They also outscored the Pistons 29 to 13 in Detroit in game 6 in the 4th quarter.

1. As poorly as Lebron and JJ did, they still led both their teams to game 7's with far worse supporting casts. And neither have the versatile offensive game that Kobe has. Sorry, if you're using the regular season as a barometer, you might as well be a Celtics fan. Everything in this postseason has served to separate Kobe from the rest of the pack. Pop knows it, Sloan knows it, Collins knows it. Maybe you and Doc haven't gotten that memo.

2. Look, you can spin it however you want, but he's far underutilized Posey and House, and kept the Cassell experiment going far longer than he should have. PJ Brown had one good game. Their bench is an inconsistent threat, and they are always looking for one "Aberration guy", to borrow Simmons' terminology, unlike the Lakers bench, which plays consistently as a UNIT. Boston bench is a supplement; Lakers bench is like another team altogether. Also, Tony Allen is pretty much shelved.

3. Choking in the 4th quarter is blown out of proportion? Then how have they played 20 playoffs games already? I love how the Pistons have been the barometer of success for the following groups now: Celts fans, LeBron fans, Wade fans. How long will it take you guys to look at each other and realize that hey, maybe the Pistons really aren't that good anymore, and haven't been since their Cinderella 2004 championship?

[circushots]

pretty sure that Kobe will be on Pierce while Sasha plays Ray. He can afford to spend more energy to chase him around screens all day. if that doesn't work, why not try putting a longer guy on Pierce, maybe Odom or even Ariza if he's healthy?

I see Odom/?? being a huge mismatch. Unless you throw KG on him, where then Pau becomes a nightmare for Perk to guard. Turiaf's energy off the bench should offset Perk/Powe as well.

[EHL]

You never heard me complain about playing the Spurs, Jazz, or the Nuggets because I knew we would matchup well with them.

Kid, you in fact said "Both the Hornets and Spurs are better than us" in your reactionary, cry wolf Lakers thread a month ago. This revisionist BS about you always having confidence that the Lakers would beat the Spurs? Who do you think you're kidding? Man up and admit you were wrong, badly. Lakers beat them in 5.

Also, the fact that Kobe has a jumper forces his man to play him closer, allowing Kobe to beat his man off the dribble more easily. When the man he has to beat will be Ray Allen much of the time (or Pierce), it's going to get ugly. To think otherwise based on one bad game Kobe had in January at Staples, without Pau Gasol and without nearly the same chemistry or the same Lamar Odom is, well, just beyond funny really. Then again, your previous thread claiming the Lakers weren't for real speaks for yourself. You're just not good at this posting thing.

[Patterns]

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1. As poorly as Lebron and JJ did, they still led both their teams to game 7's with far worse supporting casts. And neither have the versatile offensive game that Kobe has. Sorry, if you're using the regular season as a barometer, you might as well be a Celtics fan. Everything in this postseason has served to separate Kobe from the rest of the pack. Pop knows it, Sloan knows it, Collins knows it. Maybe you and Doc haven't gotten that memo.

2. Look, you can spin it however you want, but he's far underutilized Posey and House, and kept the Cassell experiment going far longer than he should have. PJ Brown had one good game. Their bench is an inconsistent threat, and they are always looking for one "Aberration guy", to borrow Simmons' terminology, unlike the Lakers bench, which plays consistently as a UNIT. Boston bench is a supplement; Lakers bench is like another team altogether. Also, Tony Allen is pretty much shelved.

3. Choking in the 4th quarter is blown out of proportion? Then how have they played 20 playoffs games already? I love how the Pistons have been the barometer of success for the following groups now: Celts fans, LeBron fans, Wade fans. How long will it take you guys to look at each other and realize that hey, maybe the Pistons really aren't that good anymore, and haven't been since their Cinderella 2004 championship?

1. If you are using what the Celtics have done up to this point in the playoffs to argue against them, why can't I use what the Celtics have done vs the Lakers this season to favor them? They're the same team with the same concept, same players, and same coaching staff. The Hawks caught the Celtics off guard and if it weren't for a few 4th quarter collapses, the Hawks would have been swept. Game 7 is an indication of just how much the Celtics were better than the Hawks when they blew them out by 30, 40 points. Everyone knew that the Cavs and Celtics were going to go to 7 games. We're talking about a hard-nosed Cavs team with Lebron James. They were the defending East Champs. Beating Detroit wasn't that big of a deal. I knew they would beat Detroit and they did it in 6 games which was what I thought.

2.The Lakers bench is overrated, imo. At times when I watch them, they seem lost of both defense and offense. They always pass the ball around without anyone doing anything and at the last second hoist up a bad shot because of shot clock. The Celtic bench has a more defined role. Each player knows exactly what they have to do when they come in. For example, House comes in to space the floor and give them instant offense. Posey goes in to defend the other team's top perimeter player and to space the floor. PJ Brown goes in there to defend and rebound. The Laker bench, however, are asked to be more dynamic and do more. That could be a good thing but it also creates inconsistency and isn't as solid.

3.I am one of the few people who believe that if the Lakers face the Cavs in the playoffs, they would lose. The Celtics are basically a better version of the Cavs. They have similar defense and offense but the Celtics are a lot more versatile and have more offensive players.

[Patterns]

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Kid, you in fact said "Both the Hornets and Spurs are better than us" in your reactionary, cry wolf Lakers thread a month ago. This revisionist BS about you always having confidence that the Lakers would beat the Spurs? Who do you think you're kidding? Man up and admit you were wrong, badly. Lakers beat them in 5.

Also, the fact that Kobe has a jumper forces his man to play him closer, allowing Kobe to beat his man off the dribble more easily. When the man he has to beat will be Ray Allen much of the time (or Pierce), it's going to get ugly. To think otherwise based on one bad game Kobe had in January at Staples, without Pau Gasol and without nearly the same chemistry or the same Lamar Odom is, well, just beyond funny really. Then again, your previous thread claiming the Lakers weren't for real speaks for yourself. You're just not good at this posting thing.

This is what I said

Both the Hornets and Spurs are better than us. The Celtics are on another level. The Pistons, we can handle.

I said the Spurs were better than us but not on another level. I also didn't expect a banged up Ginobili either. My prediction wasn't too far because the Spurs were up by 20 in game 1 and 17 in game 5, both in LA. They just blew those games and ran out of steam without Ginobili stepping up.

If Ginobili was healthy and himself, that series would have gone to game 7 easily.

[eatyourchildren]

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1. If you are using what the Celtics have done up to this point in the playoffs to argue against them, why can't I use what the Celtics have done vs the Lakers this season to favor them? They're the same team with the same concept, same players, and same coaching staff. The Hawks caught the Celtics off guard and if it weren't for a few 4th quarter collapses, the Hawks would have been swept. Game 7 is an indication of just how much the Celtics were better than the Hawks when they blew them out by 30, 40 points. Everyone knew that the Cavs and Celtics were going to go to 7 games. We're talking about a hard-nosed Cavs team with Lebron James. They were the defending East Champs. Beating Detroit wasn't that big of a deal. I knew they would beat Detroit and they did it in 6 games which was what I thought.

Playoffs are different than the regular season. Everyone knows that. Some teams shrink, some teams shine. Thank god for Celtics fans, their team was so huge to begin with some shrinkage still made them marginally better than...the Cavs and Hawks.
if it weren't for a few 4th quarter collapses, the Hawks would have been swept You were saying?

2.The Lakers bench is overrated, imo. At times when I watch them, they seem lost of both defense and offense. They always pass the ball around without anyone doing anything and at the last second hoist up a bad shot because of shot clock. The Celtic bench has a more defined role. Each player knows exactly what they have to do when they come in. For example, House comes in to space the floor and give them instant offense. Posey goes in to defend the other team's top perimeter player and to space the floor. PJ Brown goes in there to defend and rebound. The Laker bench, however, are asked to be more dynamic and do more. That could be a good thing but it also creates inconsistency and isn't as solid.

How wrong can you be about this? In the playoffs, the Lakers bench has been the consistent force. Where have you been? Oh, probably watching Celtics games.

3.I am one of the few people who believe that if the Lakers face the Cavs in the playoffs, they would lose. The Celtics are basically a better version of the Cavs. They have similar defense and offense but the Celtics are a lot more versatile and have more offensive players.

Seriously, get the banner off your sig. You are a disgrace.

[Patterns]

The only way I see the Lakers winning this series is if the Refs don't allow Perkins to be physical on Gasol and KG misses most of his jumpshots.

I am just so damn tired of Pau missing so many stupid close shots. Even Doug Collins mentioned it so many times during the Spurs series with Phil complaining also. It frustrates me in the same way Lamar always misses layups.

[EHL]

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I said the Spurs were better than us but not on another level. I also didn't expect a banged up Ginobili either. My prediction wasn't too far because the Spurs were up by 20 in game 1 and 17 in game 5, both in LA. They just blew those games and ran out of steam without Ginobili stepping up.

If Ginobili was healthy and himself, that series would have gone to game 7 easily.

BS excuse making at its finest. Ginobili's ankle didn't stop him from dropping 30 in Game 3. Fact of the matter is that the Lakers played superb defense against him, something the Hornets couldn't muster btw. Your inability to see the Lakers' defensive ability is exactly why you will be wrong for a 3rd straight time this postseason.

[Patterns]

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BS excuse making at its finest. Ginobili's ankle didn't stop him from dropping 30 in Game 3. Fact of the matter is that the Lakers played superb defense against him, something the Hornets couldn't muster btw. Your inability to see the Lakers' defensive ability is exactly why you will be wrong for a 3rd straight time this postseason.

Third straight time? When did I say that we weren't going to beat the Jazz, Nuggets, and SA?

I never said anything about the Nuggets and never worried about them. I said we'd go to 6 or 7 games against the Jazz and we went to 6 games while many Lakers fans said we'd sweep them. I said the Spurs were better and I still think that the series would have gone to 7 games and anything can happen in game 7 but I didn't expect Ginobili to be injured. I have no idea how he pulled out a 30pt game but that game, his 3pt shot was money but I saw no lift when he drove the lane. Even the game announcers saw that he had no lift and had to throw up weak shots like Pau.

[humblebum]

I don't think Lakers fans understand this concept:The Cavs and Pistons played the type of defense that causes the Celtics to struggle at times offensively.

Not only are the Cavs and Pistons highly disciplined but they have defenders who match up well with the Celtics at several key positions. At SF you have Lebron and Prince. At SG you had Richard Hamilton and in the Cavs series the Cavs doubled Ray everytime he caught the ball. In both the Cavs and Pistons series you had several solid defensive bigs. This is why the Celtics have at times looked like an anemic offensive team.

The Lakers do not have the players or the type of defensive discipline of our last two opponents.

The Lakers will use the same strategy our last two opponents used against Rondo. They will leave him and use that defender to muddle things up. The C's are slowly improving against this strategy often using Rondo as an offensive rebounder.

Kobe will be able to defend Ray straight up. But... the Lakers are going to have to send doubles at Pierce AND KG so that would clearly point to Ray getting free quite a bit.

The Celtics offense is bound to function at a higher level against the Lakers because they simply do not have the horses on defense to handle our top two players.

Sure the Lakers can try to outscore the Celtics but the Celtics are going to get more high percentage looks and will likely dominate the glass. Leaving the Lakers with one and out possessions on offense while the Celtics will get more second and third chances offensively. Over the course of games and series' this will wear down the Lakers.

[EHL]

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Third straight time? When did I say that we weren't going to beat the Jazz, Nuggets, and SA?

I never said anything about the Nuggets and never worried about them. I said we'd go to 6 or 7 games against the Jazz and we went to 6 games while many Lakers fans said we'd sweep them. I said the Spurs were better and I still think that the series would have gone to 7 games and anything can happen in game 7 but I didn't expect Ginobili to be injured. I have no idea how he pulled out a 30pt game but that game, his 3pt shot was money but I saw no lift when he drove the lane. Even the game announcers saw that he had no lift and had to throw up weak shots like Pau.

The announcers also said the Lakers played superb defense on Manu, playing him off his right hand and forcing him to areas he wasn't comfortable in. The fact that you cannot see this is, again, why you will be wrong for a 3rd straight time. Like the kid who cried wolf, you bumped this thread after Game 4 of the Lakers OT loss to the Jazz despite the reality it never even would have reached that point had Kobe not had the freak back injury (and you know this too, just too moronic to admit it), meaning the Lakers would have disposed of them in 5 games. Quite clearly you were wrong about the Spurs, and using Manu's injury as a reason is, as a I said, pure BS excuse making that fails to recognize the superb D the Lakers played in that series. So you will have been wrong about how far the Lakers took the Jazz, wrong about the Spurs (and the Hornets by extension), and will be wrong about the Celtics. Add that up however you like, I count at least 3 wrong predictions and potentially 4.

[eatyourchildren]

I don't think Lakers fans understand this concept:The Cavs and Pistons played the type of defense that causes the Celtics to struggle at times offensively.

Not only are the Cavs and Pistons highly disciplined but they have defenders who match up well with the Celtics at several key positions. At SF you have Lebron and Prince. At SG you had Richard Hamilton and in the Cavs series the Cavs doubled Ray everytime he caught the ball. In both the Cavs and Pistons series you had several solid defensive bigs. This is why the Celtics have at times looked like an anemic offensive team.

The Lakers do not have the players or the type of defensive discipline of our last two opponents.

The Lakers will use the same strategy our last two opponents used against Rondo. They will leave him and use that defender to muddle things up. The C's are slowly improving against this strategy often using Rondo as an offensive rebounder.

Kobe will be able to defend Ray straight up. But... the Lakers are going to have to send doubles at Pierce AND KG so that would clearly point to Ray getting free quite a bit.

The Celtics offense is bound to function at a higher level against the Lakers because they simply do not have the horses on defense to handle our top two players.

Sure the Lakers can try to outscore the Celtics but the Celtics are going to get more high percentage looks and will likely dominate the glass. Leaving the Lakers with one and out possessions on offense while the Celtics will get more second and third chances offensively. Over the course of games and series' this will wear down the Lakers.

1. The Cavs and Pistons are teams that, like Kenny says, are boxers that throw no punches. Why does it takes 7 and 6 games, respectively, to defeat that?

2. Why do we need to send doubles at KG? The same way we had to send doubles at Duncan? We'll let KG shoot 20'footers all day long if that's what you want the Celtics offense to be. Be my guest.

3. Of your top two players, who is stepping up in the 4th? Can you say say with any 80+% certainty?

4. Odom and Gasol combined will do a job on the glass. I don't expect the Celtics to blow them away in this department.

5. Kobe. Try stopping him.

[Patterns]

The matchup problems we have against the Celtics cannot be underrated.

Do you guys remember how we always got blown out by the Suns when we had Kwame with an undeveloped Bynum and no Pau? Because we just couldn't match up with them. We were always down by 20, 25 playing the Suns. The Suns were the only team we could never beat and we drew them twice in the playoffs. While all the Lakers fans were celebrating like we won the series when we went up 3-1, I still thought that the Suns would come back and beat us and they did.

You have to look at little intangibles when you look at a series. You can't just base things off of games vs other teams. To play the Suns, you have to have a big man who can rebound and finish at the rim. We had Kwame freaking Brown. When we had Bynum this year, we took the Suns out easily.

Same thing with the Celtics. If you want to beat the Celtics, you have to either have an athletic team like the Bobcats(did extremely well vs the Celtics) and Hawks, or a big physical team like the Cavs.

We have neither of those. We have Kobe and Phil Jackson. I pray that we'll be able to pull out a miracle and I hope Phil has a master game plan to hide our weaknesses.

[EHL]

I don't think Lakers fans understand this concept:The Cavs and Pistons played the type of defense that causes the Celtics to struggle at times offensively.

Not only are the Cavs and Pistons highly disciplined but they have defenders who match up well with the Celtics at several key positions. At SF you have Lebron and Prince. At SG you had Richard Hamilton and in the Cavs series the Cavs doubled Ray everytime he caught the ball. In both the Cavs and Pistons series you had several solid defensive bigs. This is why the Celtics have at times looked like an anemic offensive team.

The Lakers do not have the players or the type of defensive discipline of our last two opponents.

The Lakers will use the same strategy our last two opponents used against Rondo. They will leave him and use that defender to muddle things up. The C's are slowly improving against this strategy often using Rondo as an offensive rebounder.

Kobe will be able to defend Ray straight up. But... the Lakers are going to have to send doubles at Pierce AND KG so that would clearly point to Ray getting free quite a bit.

The Celtics offense is bound to function at a higher level against the Lakers because they simply do not have the horses on defense to handle our top two players.

Sure the Lakers can try to outscore the Celtics but the Celtics are going to get more high percentage looks and will likely dominate the glass. Leaving the Lakers with one and out possessions on offense while the Celtics will get more second and third chances offensively. Over the course of games and series' this will wear down the Lakers.

Except the Lakers already played a tougher defensive team, a playoff-proven and battle-tested 3-time championship team, and beat them in 5. Cavs sending doubles at Ray Allen? Come on man, be real here, no such thing occurred with any regularity, that's just lunacy. Fact of the matter is the Lakers have a combination of all sorts of things that the Celtics don't want to see; they have a huge advantage with Kobe being guarded by Ray Allen, which has two effects; one, Kobe will inevitably get beat him off the dribble, and two it'll take Allen off his game, which has already been horrid most of the playoffs. Pierce's advantage on Radman is big, but Pierce isn't nearly the threat Bryant is and luckily Radman isn't nearly as important to the Lakers as Ray Allen. Best of all, Ariza is healthy and has proven he can stay in front of Allen Iverson. Look for Ariza to have a great series defensively in spots against Paul Pierce.

Basically it'll come down to KG having to carry the load, which the Lakers have no issues with whatsoever. The more the ball is in KG's hands the better, it'll take away from Pierce's game. Lakers would much rather Pierce didn't handle the ball. And no, KG will not be doubled with any regularity. Even Duncan wasn't, and certainly Duncan is more of a scoring threat than KG.