It pisses me off when people say Phil is better than Red

Tricky Ricky · Post #1 » by **Tricky Ricky** » Sun Jun 1, 2008 7:27 pm

All Phil Jackson did was go to teams with Great players already on them, I think weve seen the past two seasons what happens when he only has one superstar on the team, he losses. Now before they robbed the Grizz they couldnt be considered championship contenders.

On the other hand I wasnt around to see it but as I understand it Red did have hall of fame players to coach but he was the one who put those teams together. Also Red played the best competition each night as there were so few teams.

Is Phil Jackson a bad coach? No I do not think he is a bad coach but I still dont like hearing people say he is or will eh eh everrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr be better than Red.

greenbeans · Post #2 » by **greenbeans** » Sun Jun 1, 2008 7:31 pm

its like somebody saying the moon is made of cheese. sure, they can say it til theyre blue in the face but it doesnt make it true

Buckeye-NBAFan · Post #3 » by **Buckeye-NBAFan** » Sun Jun 1, 2008 7:55 pm

Red was an amazing GM. Phil has never been a GM.

But to say Phil can't match him as a coach because he had great players is a joke. The Celtics won 2 of the next 3 titles in the 3 years after Auerbach retired, with a not an experienced coach, but a player-coach with no previous head coaching experience. Bill Russell was the main reason the Celtics were a dynasty.

Auerbach had the most talent in the league. This Celtics reign ended when Sam Jones and Bill Russell retired. Not when Auerbach stopped coaching.

BehindTheBushes · Post #4 » by **BehindTheBushes** » Sun Jun 1, 2008 8:50 pm

Also Red played the best competition each night as there were so few teams.

I wouldn't say this is true since basketball didn't have as much depth as now.. so the talent actually could have been less thus making the best competition easier then the middle tier teams in the nba now....

Post #5 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Sun Jun 1, 2008 9:23 pm

I'd say Red is a greater basketball mind, and the best GM of all time, but I have him as the third greatest coach. Sacrilege on this board, I know :dontknow:

iamworthy · Post #6 » by **iamworthy** » Sun Jun 1, 2008 10:20 pm

Tricky Ricky wrote:All Phil Jackson did was go to teams with Great players already on them, I think weve seen the past two seasons what happens when he only has one superstar on the team, he losses. Now before they robbed the Grizz they couldnt be considered championship contenders.

On the other hand I wasnt around to see it but as I understand it Red did have hall of fame players to coach but he was the one who put those teams together. Also Red played the best competition each night as there were so few teams.

Is Phil Jackson a bad coach? No I do not think he is a bad coach but I still dont like hearing people say he is or will eh eh everrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr be better than Red.

So your argument is based off of what you heard about Red and what you have seen in Phil Jackson. Nice.

TonyMontana · Post #7 » by **TonyMontana** » Sun Jun 1, 2008 10:28 pm

iamworthy wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

So your argument is based off of what you heard about Red and what you have seen in Phil Jackson. Nice.

Celtics_85 · Post #8 » by **Celtics_85** » Sun Jun 1, 2008 10:28 pm

Who cares who is better, what can be said about both is they were some of the best of their eras. Give both these guys credit and not worry about who was better.

iamworthy · Post #9 » by **iamworthy** » Sun Jun 1, 2008 10:30 pm

Celtics_85 wrote:Who cares who is better, what can be said about both is they were some of the best of their eras. Give both these guys credit and not worry about who was better.

Tricky Ricky · Post #10 » by **Tricky Ricky** » Sun Jun 1, 2008 10:30 pm

iamworthy wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

So your argument is based off of what you heard about Red and what you have seen in Phil Jackson. Nice.

Im just saying I hate when people say Phil is sooooooooo much better than Red. Heck I could win championships and be called "the best ever" with Michael/Scottie, Shaq/Kobe

spf211 · Post #11 » by **spf211** » Sun Jun 1, 2008 10:50 pm

In-game coaching it's hard to compare -- but the fact that Red constructed three title teams in three different eras (arguably even four) he's clearly the greater "basketball mind" and a pioneer of the game.

Jackson has contributed nothing to the level that Red did -- even the triangle offense isn't his.

ArmstrongInGreen · Post #12 » by **ArmstrongInGreen** » Sun Jun 1, 2008 11:08 pm

spf211 wrote:In-game coaching it's hard to compare -- but the fact that Red constructed three title teams in three different eras (arguably even four) he's clearly the greater "basketball mind" and a pioneer of the game.

Jackson has contributed nothing to the level that Red did -- even the triangle offense isn't his.

well boys and girls that prettymuch sums it up right there. nice post

BigHands · Post #13 » by **BigHands** » Sun Jun 1, 2008 11:36 pm

Red and Jackson = great coaches (I like Red but I am biased)
Red = greatest GM of them all

Red = dead
Jackson = alive and coaching

The only way to stop hearing about Phil Jackson is for the Celtics to beat the Lakers.

If the Lakers win, Jackson is all we will hear.

MaxwellSmart · Post #14 » by **MaxwellSmart** » Sun Jun 1, 2008 11:50 pm

Doug Collins got the Bulls to the Championship level-only to be fired right before he could cash in.....Jerry West was the reason the Lakers got Shaq and Kobe....These are the facts.

But, Phil is a GREAT coach....it's really hard to manage players in today's game....and he is a master at the mind games.

Red COMPLETELY built the old Celtics all by himself(even the 80's teams)--but it was in an era before the salary cap and David Stern.

Both are great....like Magic and Larry were both great.....Let's worry about the games now.

Post #15 » by **Tommy Udo 6** » Sun Jun 1, 2008 11:51 pm

Tricky Ricky wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Im just saying I hate when people say Phil is sooooooooo much better than Red. Heck I could win championships and be called "the best ever" with Michael/Scottie, Shaq/Kobe

As a Bulls fan, here is my observation: the key to Phil's success has been his assistant coaches. Jerry Krause recognized the genius of Tex Winter & told Phil, when he hired him as coach, that Tex MUST be on his staff.

Phil soon recognized that Tex really was a genius with the triangle & became close to him. Tex called the plays. Phil surrounded himself with other excellent assistants, almost all who are still with him on the Lakers.

Phil is like a CEO who moves people into the correct positions. Phil is like a CEO in dealing with personality conflicts.

Phil left Chicago when he knew Jordan was retiring & Pippen was leaving. Both had told him long before it was announced. However, Phil had to wait a year for Tex Winter and Hamblein, both of whom had another year on their Chicago contract.

In the meantime, Phil arranged to go to LA. He had connections & knew the job was his for the asking. I'm not sure if he dumped his wife & hooked up with Jeannie Buss before or after he was hired by LA. Phil was able to bring his entire coaching staff over from Chicago - and they proceeded to win 3 straight titles and came very close to a 4th.

To me, Red is the superior basketball mind. I would even whisper the word "genius".

As for Phil, I would not use that word. Phil is talented. Phil is successful. Phil is lucky. Phil also has an ego as large as his salary.

Phil also has won only 1 coach of year title - the year the Bulls won 72.

What saddens me is that Phil has an excellent chance to get his record 10th title this month and that means that he would get it against Red's team. Since Phil is in tight with Jeannie & the Lakers are posed for another dynasty, Phil will eventually pass the record - but I hope that for Red's sake, the Celtics can stop him this season.

Lake Dynasty · Post #16 » by **Lake Dynasty** » Mon Jun 2, 2008 1:15 am

Tricky Ricky wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Im just saying I hate when people say Phil is sooooooooo much better than Red. Heck I could win championships and be called "the best ever" with Michael/Scottie, Shaq/Kobe

now u just reaching. Not even die hard Lakers fans say "Phil is sooooooooo much better than Red".

They both are great. Each is the best of his era

U2larkin04 · Post #17 » by **U2larkin04** » Mon Jun 2, 2008 1:46 am

I'm glad Tommy sort of said it a bit... but what really upsets me, is how people don't realize HOW MUCH Red did compared to Phil. Red didn't have all of these assistant coaches, management, assistants, staff, blah blah blah. Phil has all of that... I think Phil is great, don't get me wrong... It's also just different era's of basketball, different players, it's hard to compare. But I do think Red is without a doubt the better basketball mind, he was a true genius.

DubaLakers · Post #18 » by **DubaLakers** » Mon Jun 2, 2008 3:11 am

I really don't think of it like that at all, Red is a legend. Shoot I'm so impressed with Coach Popovich he could be better than PJax. All that matters to me is we got PJax and you guys have Doc. Mismatch.

sirgant1 · Post #19 » by **sirgant1** » Mon Jun 2, 2008 3:12 am

Yea, the truth hurts.

ArmstrongInGreen · Post #20 » by **ArmstrongInGreen** » Mon Jun 2, 2008 3:14 am

ya know i've read a lot of good posts in this thread and here's what i think it comes down to. it's a generational thing.

In Red's day it was physically possible to do everything for a franchise yourself. Coach/GM/President of Basketball Operatations/Lead Marketing Coordinator literally Red did EVERYTHING.

In today's world the NBA, like the economy, is truly on a global scale (much of this thanks to Red) and it's just not possible for one person to fill all of the roles for a franchise like Red did.

That being said, Phil Jackson takes the managerial approach to his coaching. he is EXCELLENT at putting his people, in a position in which they can succeed. he has been doing this for years and thus is one of the best ever at maximizing the talent he has on his roster.

so phil jackson obviously cannot be everything that red aurbach was but on a coaching level they are both elite for their respective eras.