Talent Gap Between Augustin and Lawson

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Talent Gap Between Augustin and Lawson 

Post#1 » by Bucky O'Hare » Mon Jun 2, 2008 3:21 am

Most mocks have Augustin going lottery with Lawson going late 1st round. So my question is, is there really that big of a talent gap between the two?

Here are there stats for this season....

Image

Truth be told, Lawson was far more productive when he was on the court, he just didn't play a ton of minutes like Augustin. And look at the difference in their offensive efficiency.

Augustin is listed as 6', Lawson as 5'11", but is it not true Lawson is physically superior in almost every way? Quicker, stronger, better jumper, etc.?

So why is one a mid-to-late lotto project, and the other a late 1st round project?

Do you think Augustin's stock will sink, Lawson's stock will rise, or both, prior to the draft?
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Post#2 » by AnSweR07 » Mon Jun 2, 2008 3:57 am

Lawson is better at everything than Augustin except for shooting. Bigger, faster, stronger, more explosive, better playmaker. Augustin has good leadership qualities I'll give him that. Lawson is being overlooked bc he had less than spectacular season due to injuries. When he has been able to play hes been pretty much the engine for the team all season long. As for their draft status.. I dont think Augustins stock will drop but prolly remain neutral, however, I think Lawson will go higher than mock drafts project him currently.
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Post#3 » by ponder276 » Mon Jun 2, 2008 3:59 am

North Carolina played a super-quick, fast break style system, which really inflates everyones stats. They averaged something like 90pts/game, which is ridiculous for a college team. Lawson is great on the break, but pretty average in the half court, whereas Augustin is a very good half court PG. It's unlikely that Lawson is going to be able to run as much in the NBA as he did in college.
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Post#4 » by riehldeal » Mon Jun 2, 2008 4:11 am

personally I feel the better discussion is why Singletary behind Lawson is a given

Lawson played briefly at Orlando and then mysteriously pulled out......rumor was a promise
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Post#5 » by AnSweR07 » Mon Jun 2, 2008 4:13 am

ponder276 wrote:North Carolina played a super-quick, fast break style system, which really inflates everyones stats. They averaged something like 90pts/game, which is ridiculous for a college team. Lawson is great on the break, but pretty average in the half court, whereas Augustin is a very good half court PG. It's unlikely that Lawson is going to be able to run as much in the NBA as he did in college.



As a result of lack of jumpshot defense knows how to play Lawson. They crowd the paint and give him space to shoot it. Lawson could thrive if he goes to team like Phoenix, Denver, Golden State, but yea unless he can keep teh defense honest wit a jumper he wont be nearly as effective in the NBA.
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Post#6 » by cdash » Mon Jun 2, 2008 4:29 am

AnSweR07 wrote:Lawson is better at everything than Augustin except for shooting. Bigger, faster, stronger, more explosive, better playmaker. Augustin has good leadership qualities I'll give him that. Lawson is being overlooked bc he had less than spectacular season due to injuries. When he has been able to play hes been pretty much the engine for the team all season long. As for their draft status.. I dont think Augustins stock will drop but prolly remain neutral, however, I think Lawson will go higher than mock drafts project him currently.


Bigger? Which part of Lawson: 5'11; Augustin: 6'0 is hard to understand?

Edit: Upon further research, I see Lawson weighs about 15 pounds more than Augustin, which in fact, makes him bigger in one regard. My apologies for the jerkish post.
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Post#7 » by GSW2K4 » Mon Jun 2, 2008 7:00 am

AnSweR07 wrote:Lawson is better at everything than Augustin except for shooting. Bigger, faster, stronger, more explosive, better playmaker. Augustin has good leadership qualities I'll give him that. Lawson is being overlooked bc he had less than spectacular season due to injuries. When he has been able to play hes been pretty much the engine for the team all season long. As for their draft status.. I dont think Augustins stock will drop but prolly remain neutral, however, I think Lawson will go higher than mock drafts project him currently.


I agree here... and Augustin's playmaking is far overblown...and Lawson's stats are also inflated because he played uptempo.

I think people are way over-rating Augustin because PG is the toughest position to evaluate. The same thing happened last year with Acie Law -- he got credit for being a quick and looking confident on the court.

But aside from scoring, neither player has a good sense of how to shift gears to control the tempo. Part of being a point guard involves forcing the defense to shift in a way that will open up a scoring opportunity for someone else. Don't see it from Augustin. In a way, I see both Augustin and Law as over-aggressive...and part of that is because they are both scorers who are streaky mid-range shooters.

They also both benefit from the same thing as draft prospects -- there just arent many pg prospects available. Last year, it was Conley, Law, Crittenton, and Pruitt (who was hardly a viable NBA pg). This year as true pgs, you're looking at Rose, Augustin, and Chalmers and Lawson. Chalmers might not even count.

Of this bunch, Augustin is the best true pg prospect...but compare him to other pgs drafted in the 1st round the last 5 yrs... Augustin wouldn't show up very high. Someone is going to be very disappointed with this guy.
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Post#8 » by i<3basketball » Mon Jun 2, 2008 11:34 am

[quote="ponder276"]North Carolina played a super-quick, fast break style system, which really inflates everyones stats. quote]

Yeah but Lawson still played 12, count them 12 less minutes a game which shows how effective he was when he was in the game.
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Post#9 » by MalReyn » Mon Jun 2, 2008 12:14 pm

AnSweR07 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-




As a result of lack of jumpshot defense knows how to play Lawson. They crowd the paint and give him space to shoot it. Lawson could thrive if he goes to team like Phoenix, Denver, Golden State, but yea unless he can keep teh defense honest wit a jumper he wont be nearly as effective in the NBA.


While true to an extent, it's hard to ignore his fantastic percentages this year. Even his 3-point shooting was dramatically improved, though granted he didn't take that many.
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Post#10 » by takin'over » Mon Jun 2, 2008 12:34 pm

Augustin has more leadership ability, is better in a half court game and controls the tempo better than Lawson or that is the impression because UNC only played at one tempo.
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Post#11 » by Flite » Mon Jun 2, 2008 1:18 pm

I'm a huge fan of DJ and have been for a while, but the gap is far smaller than the mock drafts hint at.
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Post#12 » by wilt » Mon Jun 2, 2008 1:31 pm

that is true, but it
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Post#13 » by Ruzious » Mon Jun 2, 2008 3:31 pm

A lot of good college PGs don't make it in the NBA because they can't finish around the basket. That's what I see as Lawson's downfall - as well as his poor shooting range. Augustin is much more adept at finishing and shooting. He's a much better prospect.
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Post#14 » by Downtown » Mon Jun 2, 2008 4:38 pm

Mario Chalmers name was mentioned. What is the gap between him and Lawson and Augustin? I mean all Chalmers did was lead his team to the championship. There has to be a reason why he is barely talked about at all.

If these Gm's were smart they would bring in these players together for their workouts to get a true picture of how they com
pare.
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Post#15 » by jman3134 » Mon Jun 2, 2008 5:24 pm

^ While I certainly agree that Chalmers should be a first round pick, I see a problem with the notion of bringing them together. Pitting point guards head to head will never really demonstrate imo how well they play in 5 on 5 situations. I think that these private workouts only test their athleticism and shooting- not necessarily their vision in a game time scenario with the pressures that it entails.

A perfect example of this is Augustin vs. Lawson. DJ stepped up in virtually every media covered game. He single handedly led his offense to become one of the most dynamic in the country. He's a capable one on one scorer who can read defensive schemes better than Lawson and Chalmers. He's extremely quick and crafty.

While Lawson has performed well recently in Orlando, I think that he will never get the same reputation if he stays in this draft. Despite the gaudy numbers, he played hurt most of this season. And, he looked that way. I personally feel that he has more potential than Augustin because he is less polished in the half court as already mentioned. Lawson is blazingly fast and possesses the physical gifts that make scouts drool. He just needs to demonstrate that he is back in full form post injury. Late in the season, I saw him make some boneheaded mistakes in games. However, I also felt that he was a step slow. So, I believe that he is doing the right thing for his draft stock by dominating against high level competition at Orlando. Still, the injury concern and his college season should not merit a spot above Augustin.

As for Chalmers, I love the guy and hope the Grizzlies pick him with their late first round pick. Still, there are concerns about his ability to handle the point guard slot. In Self's system offense, he did not dominate the ball as much as he will in an NBA setting. I think this actually demonstrates that he will be a much more dynamic player in the NBA. With a greater volume of opportunities, I feel that Chalmers will become a very dangerous NBA player. He has learned to play within the offense and never really forces the issue. I love his defensive prowess and believe that he is a true winner. He should be a first round selection.
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Post#16 » by Bucky O'Hare » Mon Jun 2, 2008 5:54 pm

Lawson...

FG%/FT%/3P%
.515/.835/.361

For all the talk about his lack of shooting and inability to finish around the rim, those are some damn impressive shooting percentages. I realize UNC played a ridiculously fast paced offense, but let's not completely discredit those numbers.
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Post#17 » by skiz2 » Mon Jun 2, 2008 6:56 pm

Ruzious wrote:A lot of good college PGs don't make it in the NBA because they can't finish around the basket. That's what I see as Lawson's downfall - as well as his poor shooting range. Augustin is much more adept at finishing and shooting. He's a much better prospect.


Lawson is an EXCELLENT finisher at the basket. That is what is wrong with your post. He would constantly score and one plays over guys 6'10" and taller.

The talent gap isn't that far to answer the posters original question. In fact I would say they are as close as close can be in terms of talent. Lawson IMHO if he had stayed healthy this season would be a lottery pick right now. His ankle was even bothering him in the Louisville and Kansas games during the tourney.

Give me Lawson with athleticism being the tie breaker.
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Post#18 » by Ruzious » Mon Jun 2, 2008 9:03 pm

skiz2 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Lawson is an EXCELLENT finisher at the basket. That is what is wrong with your post. He would constantly score and one plays over guys 6'10" and taller.

The talent gap isn't that far to answer the posters original question. In fact I would say they are as close as close can be in terms of talent. Lawson IMHO if he had stayed healthy this season would be a lottery pick right now. His ankle was even bothering him in the Louisville and Kansas games during the tourney.

Give me Lawson with athleticism being the tie breaker.

First of all, who are the 6'10" and taller guys he played against last season? The ACC had zero good big men - other than Lawson's teammate - Hansbrough - and even he's only 6'8. Even Duke had absolutely nothing resembling a big man. I'm a MD fan and saw Lawson couldn't get past 6'6 center Boom Osby - who as a basketball player would make a great tight end. If you're basing you opinion on ACC numbers from the past season, you're overrating Lawson - big-time, imo.
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Post#19 » by jman3134 » Mon Jun 2, 2008 9:34 pm

Ruzious wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


First of all, who are the 6'10" and taller guys he played against last season? The ACC had zero good big men - other than Lawson's teammate - Hansbrough - and even he's only 6'8. Even Duke had absolutely nothing resembling a big man. I'm a MD fan and saw Lawson couldn't get past 6'6 center Boom Osby - who as a basketball player would make a great tight end. If you're basing you opinion on ACC numbers from the past season, you're overrating Lawson - big-time, imo.


Judging by his play throughout the end of this year, I would have to agree with you that Lawson's draft position is deserved. However, I have a nagging suspicion that he never fully recovered from his injury and is only now beginning to show what he is capable of in Orlando.
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Post#20 » by skiz2 » Mon Jun 2, 2008 10:23 pm

Ruzious wrote:-= original quote snipped =-


First of all, who are the 6'10" and taller guys he played against last season? The ACC had zero good big men - other than Lawson's teammate - Hansbrough - and even he's only 6'8. Even Duke had absolutely nothing resembling a big man. I'm a MD fan and saw Lawson couldn't get past 6'6 center Boom Osby - who as a basketball player would make a great tight end. If you're basing you opinion on ACC numbers from the past season, you're overrating Lawson - big-time, imo.


So you are going to judge him off of one bad game against MD? and a game against Duke were he wasn't 100%?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=e0dTOMGsBvo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JqPPQyGzuQg&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lwl-k0_KYA8
^In this video witness him steal the ball from Hamady N'Diaye who averaged 3 blocks per game took it right to him.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=R1IUpqutpF8&feature=related
^ "Ty Lawson goes behind the back in traffic among the trees with his left, he exhibits a left"

Simply put I think you are making hasty judgements of Lawson based off of 1 bad game and games where he didn't play 100%.

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