"Rebuilding" Concept a Farce?

[Rooster]

Wade to move up one draft spot? I thought it was just Wade for the #1 pick.

Even when rebuilding, Miami kept Eddie Jones and Brian Grant. That was enormous. (And there were offers for both but Riley refused them.) Flash3, title aside, I can't call that five-way trade good for Miami.

Rebuilding is a tough process that really doesn't work that well. It might work for Atlanta, but they missed the playoffs for eight consecutive seasons. It worked for Denver... wait, no it didn't. They missed the playoffs for a decade and then only got back to the first round. Both teams made pivotal mistakes (ATL passing up the PGs, DEN trading for K-Mart). Rebuilding takes patience, hard work, the ability to not make mistakes and quite possibly the retention of key vets. A complete blow-up hasn't worked.

The Celtics still made the playoffs relatively consistently during a supposed rebuilding period... way to go for asset collection. I think asset collection is key, and I think people overestimate lottery picks and cap room (more notably the latter) as assets, hence the rebuilding craze.

[Cruel_Ruin]

Almost every single playoff team gets their #1 option in the draft, and surrounds him with other players from trade/FA/draft

[Serpo]

Almost every single playoff team gets their #1 option in the draft, and surrounds him with other players from trade/FA/draft

Yeah but you don't neccesarly have to completely rebuild to get that option. You don't need to make your team really really suck on purpose to get it .

[pillwenney]

I think it all boils down to so much luck. The point is, not only do you have to get extremely lucky to get a sure superstar in the draft, but you have to do so in exactly the right year.

On the other hand, with a trade, no star is going to be traded unless the franchise wants to move him, so again, it has to be about timing--one's team has to have the right package at the right time.

So the way I see it, it's about a team's total value. If you keep your value high you'll be in a good position to make deals to improve. For instance, with the Gasol deal, if the Grizzlies don't use the cap space created from that deal on a really good player, they will have lost value, very clearly. This is why I'm against the idea of dumping a contributing veteran contract just for the sake of dumping.

In short, I would prefer to look to rebuild through trade because at least then you don't have to really suck to be good again--either way, you're going to have to get lucky though.

And if you draft well with the picks you do get, you will keep your team's total value relatively high. Boston is a perfect example with the KG trade--Jefferson was a #15 pick but because he was a great pick to make there, he was a very valuable trading piece. Every team is going to end up with big contracts in one way or another, and if you draft effectively and have the right big contracts expiring at the right time (the right time being when a big name player is available), then you can build a team like Detroit or Boston. Now this won't get you a super-duper star, but in most cases, nothing you can do will make that happen--the only exception would maybe be in a draft with 4 known future superstars where you tank like crazy (to the point where you alienate your fanbase and lose any sense of dignity whatsoever) so that you get the worst record and are guaranteed a top 4 pick. Otherwise, it's basically a crapshoot, and so is the situation with the trading for the most part, but you do have a little more control here and like I said before, at least if you largely build with trades, your team won't have to suck quite so hard.

[Flash3]

Wade to move up one draft spot? I thought it was just Wade for the #1 pick.

Even when rebuilding, Miami kept Eddie Jones and Brian Grant. That was enormous. (And there were offers for both but Riley refused them.) Flash3, title aside, I can't call that five-way trade good for Miami.

It ended up netting us a championship. It was all worth it, no matter what's going on right now. Teams try and try and try for years and can't get over the hump; Dallas, Sacramento, Portland, Indiana, NY etc. Other teams try and build through the draft, and nothing becomes of them, not even the playoff; LA Clippers, Atlanta Hawks, etc.

It was all worth it. I'd do that Shaq trade again, and again if I knew it would result in us winning a title. -- Why don't you go and ask the Kings and Mavs fans how they feel today, of getting so close, but not being able to win anything?

This is what makes it all worth it, and everything that ensues with it.

[Rooster]

-= original quote snipped =-


It ended up netting us a championship. It was all worth it, no matter what's going on right now. Teams try and try and try for years and can't get over the hump; Dallas, Sacramento, Portland, Indiana, NY etc. Other teams try and build through the draft, and nothing becomes of them, not even the playoff; LA Clippers, Atlanta Hawks, etc.

It was all worth it. I'd do that Shaq trade again, and again if I knew it would result in us winning a title. -- Why don't you go and ask the Kings and Mavs fans how they feel today, of getting so close, but not being able to win anything?

This is what makes it all worth it, and everything that ensues with it.

(picture)

You keep reminiscing, Mr. Fan of a 15-win Team.

In all seriousness, I think Miami won it all despite that trade, not because of it. I also think it was a jerk move by Riley given the years previous. I've explained this all before though.

[Silvie Lysandra]

And to top it all off, let me quote ESPN's Colin Cowherd:

"It's not just getting the #1, it's getting the right #1."

Tracy McGrady? 2nd round virgin.
Carmelo Anthony? 2nd round virgin.
Vince Carter? Conference Finals virgin, and couldn't win with Kidd and Jefferson.
Dirk? Choked in the finals, first round bomb-out ever since.

Basically, you have to get lucky to win the lottery when there's a LeBron/Howard/Duncan type player in the draft, or get lucky and land an underrated FA (Arenas, Billups, Jermaine O'Neal,) or get lucky with a relative unknown with a lot of talent (Kobe, Wade, remember, Wade was supposed to fall out of the top 10 iirc) or just be incredibly good with team-building (Detroit).

This is one of the problems with the league imo, with the guranteed contracts and the restrictive trade rules, that unlike the NFL, where smart management can make any team a title contender quickly, smart management will take years to come to fruition and you still won't win, while a team that gets lucky and gets the right player at the right time becomes a dynasty.

[Flash3]

-= original quote snipped =-


You keep reminiscing, Mr. Fan of a 15-win Team.

In all seriousness, I think Miami won it all despite that trade, not because of it. I also think it was a jerk move by Riley given the years previous. I've explained this all before though.

Well, they might have won despite that trade, they still come on with a title to show for it. They were much larger reasons as to why the Heat won the title; Wade blossoming, Riley outcoaching Avery, Miami's role players out playing the opposing team's role players, to name a few.

Either way, I'll take it...

[ChrisTheFuturePaul]

The Hornets gave up Baron Davis for Dale Davis' expiring deal and Speedy Claxton, they then give David West the green light and draft CP3, they've improved their record by 20+ games 2 seasons in a row from 18wins to 56, and did that really by a smart trade for Chandler and a big FA pickup in Peja.

Rebuilding with 3 or 4 high draft picks in 2 or 3 years -could- work, but its a bigger gamble because you don't know exactly what you're getting.

Doing it via trades and FA for guys with experience, you have a better idea how the team will work.

[SunTzuMachiavelli]

The Hornets gave up Baron Davis for Dale Davis' expiring deal and Speedy Claxton, they then give David West the green light and draft CP3, they've improved their record by 20+ games 2 seasons in a row from 18wins to 56, and did that really by a smart trade for Chandler and a big FA pickup in Peja.

Rebuilding with 3 or 4 high draft picks in 2 or 3 years -could- work, but its a bigger gamble because you don't know exactly what you're getting.

Doing it via trades and FA for guys with experience, you have a better idea how the team will work.

the Hornets are really a freak occurrence though. Nobody thought Paul would be THIS good, and even if they did they especially didn't think he would be there THIS quickly.
Besides it's not like the hornets were a championship contender with Baron anyways. if baron just took the team deep into the playoffs repeatedly you wouldn't do that trade.

[farzi]

That has to be the gayest picture I've seen on Real GM.

Also, Portland was really good, but couldn't get over the top. They tore it down (although not on purpose, thanks Nash) and rebuilt it completely differently and are looking pretty good going forward.

[Sephiroth]

Joe D (one of the best gm's IMO) touched on this during his press conference. He was questioned about his team "tearing it down" to "make yourself bad, and then make the team good"

He said he will make 'significant changes' but not tear it down.
He has not seen yet where an organization that is really good (but cant get over the top ie pistons) and completely tears it to the ground and be bad and all of the sudden be great and claims it's a 'farce'

He says the celtics/lakers are exceptions and says "it doesn't happen like that, the celtics beat us and are in the finals, its been 21 years and they happen to get a really good player, same thing with lakers (last 4 years struggling) who didnt have to give up anything"....

He kept hinting at the celtics and lakers saying they got max contract players w/o giving up depth, he said he doesn't expect one of those type of phone calls like they got.

So my question is, is he correct, do you agree/disagree?

Has there been one team that has completely gone into 'rebuilding mode' and became a contender?

what do you think?

I might be wrong here but I think BOS gave up a guy named Al Jefferson in the trade for Garnett? They might have also thrown in a future 1st, gave back MN's future first that they owed - all while including Gerald Green, Ryan Gomes, Sebastian Telfair and Theo's expiring contract...

...I might be wrong though.

[MrSparkle]

I think people take the rebuilding concept too far usually. Bulls sure as hell did; my god, 8 years of "rebuilding"..? Complete bull****. Just have some faith in your players for god's sake, and bring in some veterans to create some stability. There's no excuse for that many losing seasons, the owner is just being a cheapskate or an idiot.

Kudos to Philly for not folding the franchise after the Iverson trade. They bounced back and have a competitive team. Shame on Memphis. In a rebuilding stage, I think you should have ONE YEAR to really blow it, and play horrible 1-5 lottery pick ball. After that, draft well, sign well, and make the right trades and start building SOMETHING, for the love of god.

Minnesota, for example, easily has enough talent to just build something now. They need to:

(a) Hire a good coaching staff.
(b) Sign veterans that will make a difference on and off the court.
(c) Draft the right guy.

If they have another sub .300 season, I'll be disgusted.

[Flash3]

That has to be the gayest picture I've seen on Real GM.

Also, Portland was really good, but couldn't get over the top. They tore it down (although not on purpose, thanks Nash) and rebuilt it completely differently and are looking pretty good going forward.

There have been far worse. Let me share some with you later on when I get back from work. -- Stay Tuned!