Question: Trade #2 Pick to the Bulls?

[Hoops23]

If the Heat draft Beasley, I think it will be better to keep him.

Bulls receives Marion and Banks
Heat receives Hinrich, Ty Thomas and Gooden

The trade still gives Riley the cap space he want for 2010.

[Iputsomepantson]

If the Heat draft Beasley, I think it will be better to keep him.

Bulls receives Marion and Banks
Heat receives Hinrich, Ty Thomas and Gooden

The trade still gives Riley the cap space he want for 2010.

If the Heat get Beasley...

what about Bulls receive: Marion, Banks, and Haslem

for

Hinrich, Ty Thomas, Gooden, and Deng?

Heat lineup:

C: Gooden/Zo/Blount/Anthony?
PF: Beasley/Ty Thomas/Johnson
SF: Deng/Wright/??
SG: Wade/Cook/Bryce Taylor? (go Ducks!)
PG: Hinrich/Quinn?/Duhon?

We would not have the capspace needed to get players in 2010, but seriously, let's stop that cap space talk. We would have PF/SF/SG/PG set and could find a defense/rebound minded center with the MLE. And if we are interested in acquiring a FA like Bosh, let me tell ya, we have a much better shot at trading for him, a franchise with a top tier FA like Bosh will not just let their star player walk for nothing. They would know the player wants out and trade him.

Think about it, would the Heat allow Wade to just walk if he wanted to leave?

[Hoops23]

I doubt the Bulls to agree with that trade.

[Iputsomepantson]

I doubt the Bulls to agree with that trade.

I doubt the Bulls trade anyone to us at all, but if they do, we might as well try to get Deng to go with Hinrich. Maybe Marion for Deng and Hinrich if they draft Rose.

Deng's going to be asking for pretty significant money this year and the Bulls already have Noc locked up and if they trade Marion for Hinrich, Gooden, and Ty Thomas, they'd have Noc, Marion, and Deng at SF...that would be almost 40 million in cap money if Deng asks for 8-10 million.

Think about it, if we draft Beasley and look to trade Marion, why wouldn't we try to get a SF in return as well?

[SA37]

I can't see a scenario where Miami would send the #2 pick to Chicago without getting Deng back.

Chicago would obviously be after Rose and Beasley with their picks, so Miami could just draft whoever the Bulls didn't take and wait until Deng was available to be S&T. If Deng didn't agree to go or Miami couldn't come to terms with him on a deal, then Miami could just keep their pick or look for a different deal.

For this pick, I would imagine Miami would not take anything less than Deng, Hinrich, and Thomas for Blount, Banks, and the #2. But then Miami has 3 issues:

The first issue is salary. Miami would have a tough time matching salaries without including Haslem in the deal. (I think. I haven't done the numbers.) A third team would have to be involved and Miami would have to include either Marion or Haslem in the deal.

Another issue is how much money Deng wants. He turned down 50+ million, so how much does he want? I wouldn't pay him more than a starting salary of $8 million a season, which is lower than what he was being offered from the Bulls, I think. He is a good player, but far from a star.

The final issue is Miami wanting cap space in 2010. Is this option better than the space in 2010 and the chance at James or Bosh? I don't know. Certainly, Hinrich, Deng, and Thomas are good players, but they're not stars. I don't know Miami is willing to accept this package instead of chasing Bosh or James.

[DuckIII]

If the Heat get Beasley...

what about Bulls receive: Marion, Banks, and Haslem

for

Hinrich, Ty Thomas, Gooden, and Deng?

Can you defend that trade from the Bulls' perspective?

[CRHeel94]

No way the Bulls go for that. Too much of the Bull fan base still has very high hopes of TT.

Also, Paxson lacks the gonads to pull off a major alpha dog type deal...and this deal isn't even in that order.

[dflash3]

-= original quote snipped =-



Just to clarify, you realize I'm not talking about trading Wade, right? I'm only talking about your #2 pick and bad contracts.

As to the last paragraph, if you look at my post at the top of page 2 of this thread you'll see that I basically agree with you. I think Beasley is a terrific fit with Wade.

The only reason I'm bringing any of this up is that a perception exists that Riley isn't thrilled with Beasley and is considering trading out. Maybe that is all misdirection and he, in fact, loves Beasley. But for the purposes of what I've asked here, we are assuming that Riley is not interested in keeping that pick. If he's not, then I think what I've proposed is as good or better than anything you are going to find.

Yes I do know and the point of my post was to emphasize why the Heat don't want to trade the number 2 pick which is why I presented the situation where Wade isn't traded in the last paragraph.

The purpose of the first trade proposal was to show how much I'm fed up with the whole situation since its based on some fantasy trade scenario created by a Bulls writer.

Its just amazing how much buzz can be created by someone with little credibility and just frustrating to see other major sports networks blowing up the whole situation just to try to get more viewers to watch their show.

[Iputsomepantson]

I'm not trying to defend a trade from the Bulls perspective guys. If the Bulls are dumb enough to do a trade that Bulls fans see as unfit, then hey, I could care less.

Anyways...

What about:

Haslem, Banks, Marion

for

Hinrich, Gooden, Deng, Gray

if the Bulls draft rose?

[Lane1974]

first Ira pwns Fred "That's not a cashew, that's my penis!" Mitchell earlier this week, now he lays the smack down to Chad Ford

The Internet to be closed for repairs

> Posted by Ira Winderman at 11:27:57 AM
I was kidding earlier this week about possibly having to shut down the Internet for a day or two while this insanity about a potential Dwyane Wade trade could blow over.



Apparently, it's time for action. So if you have any email, porn or other essentials you need to fetch from the Web, do so soon. Clearly, the 'net is become a tool of mass deconstruction.



Here's the latest, courtesy of Chad Ford of ESPN.com:



"If the Bulls were to offer, say, the No. 1 pick, a couple of young prospects like Joakim Noah and Thabo Sefolosha and a player in the last year of his deal like Drew Gooden, that wouldn't be a terrible deal for Miami."



Hmm, a young, marketable player still considered among the most elite at his position for the uncertainly of a draft pick, a bunch of complementary crap and an overrated power forward whose greatest claim to fame is a beard-growing competition?



Jeez, can't believe someone else didn't come up with that first. Sure the Heat settled on Shawn Marion and the possibilities of eventual cap space for Shaq, but clearly it whiffed by not moving instead for Brian Skinner, Sean Marks and Eric Piatkowski.



Tap. Tap. Tap. Is this thing on? Is anyone listening out there?



Pat Riley does not hold daily midmorning meetings with this mindset, "Fellas, how can I most come off as an imbecile today? Trade Dwyane for the end of the Bulls' bench? Brilliant!"



Derrick Rose with Dwyane Wade? The possibilities are endless.



Derrick Rose with the Sioux Falls Skyforce? Probably not sure a good idea, unless you want to put a curtain over the top two decks of AmericanAirlines Arena.

http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_basketball_heat/

Obama/Winderman in '08

[Miami's Finest]

I'm not trying to defend a trade from the Bulls perspective guys. If the Bulls are dumb enough to do a trade that Bulls fans see as unfit, then hey, I could care less.

Anyways...

What about:

Haslem, Banks, Marion

for

Hinrich, Gooden, Deng, Gray

if the Bulls draft rose?

It's way more realistic than any of the deals proposed by bulls fans or reporters. And Riley usually leaves us with a "WTF how did he make the team do that" reaction.

[Miami's Finest]

first Ira pwns Fred "That's not a cashew, that's my penis!" Mitchell earlier this week, now he lays the smack down to Chad Ford

LOL but what is up with Chad Ford? First he thinks we are giving away our #2 pick and now thinks trading away Wade could be a good idea.

[DuckIII]

I'm not trying to defend a trade from the Bulls perspective guys. If the Bulls are dumb enough to do a trade that Bulls fans see as unfit, then hey, I could care less.

I guess I just don't see the point in proposing a trade that isn't defensible from both sides. But then again, look at the Gasol trade.

[DeeDub]

The original story in the Chicago paper about trading Wade and #2 to move up to #1 was ridiculous beyond belief. Chad Ford's speculation is not nearly as ridiculous as Ira makes it out to be, especially if you basically replace Gooden with Gordon. True, Gordon can't be traded before the draft, but since Nos. 1 and 2 (putting order aside) are basically cast in stone, it's not really necessary for a deal to go through before the draft.

I love Wade. He's a superstar and the NBA is a superstar's league. But he has been injury prone and, whether that is the reason or not, has not been as fearless or effective going ot the hoop as he was a few years ago. And that is what made him who he is/was. He also has an opportunity to become a free agent in a few years and, if this team doesn't improve dramatically, I'd expect him to leave when he can.

Wade for #1, Gordon, Noah and Sefolosha is not a crazy deal. Adding Beasley and Rose through the draft, we'd have a young core of Beasley (19), Rose (19), Noah (23), Sefolosha (24), Gordon (25), Cook (21) and Wright (22). Being so young and with a 1st year head coach, we'd likely struggle next year, but that would bring another lottery pick. And we'd have Marion's contract coming off the books and and opportunity to be big players in free agency next year (Brand or Boozer?).

'08-'09 lineup

PG - Rose/Quinn/Banks
SG - Gordon/Sefolosha/Cook
F - Beasley/Wright/Sefolosha
F - Marion/Haslem/Anthony
C- Mourning/Noah/Blount

Maybe we could even make the deal sweeter by making the Bulls take Blount off our hands in exchange for either Deng or Nocioni.

[Miami's Finest]

-= original quote snipped =-



I guess I just don't see the point in proposing a trade that isn't defensible from both sides. But then again, look at the Gasol trade.

Every trade being proposed out of Chicago matches that description. Miami isn't trading Wade. And the number 2 pick won't be traded for role players.

[Lane1974]

you don't win titles by going young -- if you did, then the Clips, Grizzlies, Hawks, Warriors, Bobcats, etc all would be on the cusp... the winning teams (real winning not presentable) win with superstars and/or above average veterans. Look at the teams that have been to the finals in recent years - KG/Pierce/Allen, Kobe/Gasol/Odom, Duncan/Parker/Manu, LeBron (anomaly who is a superstar who did it by himself), Wade/Shaq/vets (Posey, Walker, J-Will, Zo), Dirk/Howard/Terry, Pistons all vets

reason being - by the time you have a team of youth mature, the studs are either tired of the losing environment and growing pains, the fanbase is tired of the growing pains and lose patience forcing a bad trade, or the stars become free agents and bolt

we waited 20 years for a Dwyane Wade to come to the Heat, he is not someone you trade for wishing and hoping (at this point in his career). He is tight with Spoelstra, so Ford's theory that Wade doesn't want to play for a young coach or Riley doesn't want to saddle a young coach with Wade is wrong, IMO

[DeeDub]

you don't win titles by going young -- if you did, then the Clips, Grizzlies, Hawks, Warriors, Bobcats, etc all would be on the cusp... the winning teams (real winning not presentable) win with superstars and/or above average veterans. Look at the teams that have been to the finals in recent years - KG/Pierce/Allen, Kobe/Gasol/Odom, Duncan/Parker/Manu, LeBron (anomaly who is a superstar who did it by himself), Wade/Shaq/vets (Posey, Walker, J-Will, Zo), Dirk/Howard/Terry, Pistons all vets

reason being - by the time you have a team of youth mature, the studs are either tired of the losing environment and growing pains, the fanbase is tired of the growing pains and lose patience forcing a bad trade, or the stars become free agents and bolt

we waited 20 years for a Dwyane Wade to come to the Heat, he is not someone you trade for wishing and hoping (at this point in his career). He is tight with Spoelstra, so Ford's theory that Wade doesn't want to play for a young coach or Riley doesn't want to saddle a young coach with Wade is wrong, IMO

It's a bit of an overgenalization that you don't win championships by going young. The teams you cited never had the No. 1 pick, most never had the No. 2 pick, and certainly none ever had 1 and 2 at the same time. And when those teams did have high picks, they often squandered them on an Olowokandi or someone like that.

You do win championships with superstars. The best way to get them is in the draft, preferably with a No.1 or No. 2 pick. Many top picks have won championships very early in their careers. Magic did it his first year. Bird did it his second year. Duncan did it his second year. Kareem did it in his second year. Olajuwan went to the finals his second year. Shaq went to the finals in his third year.

In many cases, teams had success and went to or won the finals because those teams also had more than one young top pick.

1980s Lakers

Magic Johnson (#1)
James Worthy (#1)
Byron Scott (#4)

1980s Celtics

Larry Bird (#6)
Kevin McHale (#3)


1980s Rockets

Ralph Sampson (#1)
Hakeem Olajuwan (#1)

Early 90s Magic

Shaq (#1)
Penny Hardaway (#3)

Spurs

Robinson (#1)
Duncan (#1)
Elliott (#3)

That doesn't mean you don't need the vets. You do. But the vets can often be filled in later -- the foundation is often set based on young top picks.

I love Wade and don't want to see him get traded. But everyone is tradable. And there are signs that Wade might be more valuable in a trade, especially for a big market team that's been looking for a marquee player for years (and which also happens to have the No. 1 overall pick in a pretty solid draft and a bunch of quality young players to deal). Wade has been prone to injury, doesn;'t seem as explosive or aggressive as he was a few years ago, hasn't really developed his outside shot they way one would like, and has the ability to opt out in a few years.

[dflash3]

^Seems like youre pretty eager to trade him since you keep coming up with various reasons to get rid of him.

Wade is injury prone I'll give you that but he only had one season where he wasn't explosive or aggressive which was this season due to just coming back from knee surgery.

And yes he doesn't have a great jumper, but despite that he took the Pistons to seven games during his second year and went on to win four in a row against the Mavs after an 0-2 deficit.

Making the most of your abilities and putting all your skills to together is more important than what skill sets you have. If you have the best handles and a deadly jumper but you don't know how to properly utilize those skills on the court its useless.

Shaq or Wilt couldn't make fts or jumpers but they dominated the league. You may want the Heat to trade Wade and are excited by the possibilities, but I'm in the group that believes that when you find a game changing player you keep him. And not throw him to the wolves after one bad season.

[Heat11114]

Wade has had to carry us too much, that's the problem. Wade was given the ball and told to create way too much over the last 3 years, especially as Shaq detoriated.

We need a player or two to help take the load off Wade and that is why Beasley, Rose, or even Mayo could help. If we trade the #2 we still need someone back to take the offensive pressure off of Wade be it low post or not.

90% of the time the team that gets the best player in a trade wins the trade, for that reason alone trading Wade is a horrible idea. Why in the hell would you trade a 26 year old superstar for potential? Just as Wade could leave so could anyone else we get in 3-4 years.

[Wingy]

The purpose of the first trade proposal was to show how much I'm fed up with the whole situation since its based on some fantasy trade scenario created by a Bulls writer.

Its just amazing how much buzz can be created by someone with little credibility and just frustrating to see other major sports networks blowing up the whole situation just to try to get more viewers to watch their show.

I think you likely know (or should anyway) that Bulls fans on this board thought that article (Wade/#2 for #1) was the very definition of trash. I wrote something like the editor should be fired for allowing that level of stupidity to be published. Trust me, the view from the other side looks just as bad. Many stories from the Miami papers seem to be some odd and completely unrealistic angles to get Rose even though it seems he would be bound for Chicago. Just because the papers write that crap, we don't believe Heat fans swallow it up and think the same way.

It seems think a lot of you are at least a little bit chippy with Duck as if he's one of the lame Chicago sportswriters...he's just posing a theoretical question for discussion based on an assumption (Riley no likey Beasley) that's been widely reported.