What is the Criteria to be a Top 10 Player All-Time?

[JordansBulls]

1995 Finals

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1995.htm

[Celtsfan1980]

-= original quote snipped =-



So using your logic, Wilt is clearly above Russell, because without all of those celtics to back him up, Wilt would have won most of the rings Russell did?

Russell was great in the clutch, while Chamberlain was not. That's one of the reasons why he won so little and the trades were so lopsided. Wilt never would have won the Championships in Boston if you replace the two.

Where is Mikan in this argument? It's amazing how he gets ignored so much.

[jaypo]

I agree. Mikan was the first dominant big man. They had to change the game because of his dominance.

BTW- those numbers sure don't show where Dream dominated a young Shaq. They look pretty similar to me. The difference in that series is the supporting case of Houston outperformed Orlando's.

[ko8e]

I'm sure a lot of people are gonna' be mad after reading my post, but it's the truth.

Shaq doesn't have 4 rings if Kobe or Wade are not on his team. The fact that people discredit Kobe by saying he had Shaq, but say Shaq is immortal in spite of Kobe, is ignorant. When Shaq had to face great big men, he's either came up short(see Hakeem), or got bailed out by very clutch 4th quarter shooters(see Robert Horry and Kobe Brant). When a guy is a liability to his team in the 4th quarter, he can't be top 10.Shaq is not top 10.

My ranking of the top 10 is without current playing players, because their careers aren't over yet. As of right now Kobe and Duncan are the only 2 that are clear-cut to make this list, in the future. However, James could make the top 10 with some rings and if he keeps playing at a very high level.

1.MJ-He had the stats and the hardware.
2.Wilt Chamberlain-Wilt would be number 1 if he would have beat Russell more.
3.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar-He was very good for a very long time.
4.Larry Bird-In his prime, Larry was the best player of the best era. 3 straight MVP's right in the middle of the 80's.
5.Oscar Robinson-The triple double machine.
6.Magic Johnson-5 championships
7.Bill Russell- 11 championships. Russell would have been higher if he wouldn't have been statistically dominated so much by Wilt in head to head games. It also hurt him that he had so many hall of famers on his team. It also hurt him that the playoffs were shorter when he played.
8.John Stockton-He has the most seasons playing every game at 17.
He's 29th All-Time in points scored. He's 1st All-Time in assists at 15,806. He's 1st All-Time in steals at 3,265. Just to get a perspective on how dominant of a passer he was, he has almost 6000 more assists than the second place guy, Magic Johnson. Steve Nash has a little over 6000 assists in his career. So Assist-wise he was as good as Magic Johnson and Steve Nash combined. Stockton might be the most under-rated Player of all-time.
9.Jerry West-9 NBA Finals. He was the best shooting guard of the first 40 years of the NBA. His impact on the game has been huge. NBA logo.
10.Hakeem Olajuwon-2 championships-MVP-All-NBA 12 times. The only player in history to record 2 quadruple doubles.


If Stockton had won any chamionships I would have him ranked higher and probably ahead of Magic Johnson. He had five of the top six assists seasons in NBA history. Stockton also holds the record for assists-per-game average over one season (14.5 in 1990), and is one of three players who have logged more than 1,000 assists in one season, joining Kevin Porter (1,099 in 1979) and Isiah Thomas (1,123 in 1985) in the exclusive list. Stockton did this SEVEN TIMES, with season totals of 1164, 1134, 1128, 1126, 1118, 1031 and 1011 assists.

[jaypo]

2.Wilt Chamberlain-Wilt would be number 1 if he would have beat Russell more.

If my aunt had ballz, she'd be my uncle. If Hakeem was taller, he'd be better. If Wilt was shorter, he wouldn't have dominated as much.

You can't play the if game. Since Shaq didn't hit clutch shots, does that take away from his accomplishments? He's been to the finals 6 times with 3 DIFFERENT TEAMS!! And won 4 of them. And dominated the league for years. But he isn't top 10 because he wasn't clutch? Well, if clutch only means pulling out a victory in a close game with little time left, I guess you're right. But if you mean going 16-1 in the playoffs, or sweeping the finals, or getting 3 finals MVP's awarded to you is not good enough, but having some pretty stats is, well that's just illogical.

If you can average nearly 35ppg, 10rpg (I think), have no one in the league that can stop you, be one of the best passing bigs ever, anchor the defense, and lead your teams to 6 Finals appearances in addition to the credentials above, that puts you over John Stockton and Hakeem Olojuwan. Not to take anything away from those guys, but it is what it is.

BTW- if my memory serves me correctly, Jordan doesn't have any rings without Pippen! Bird didn't have any rings without McHale an Parish. Magic didn't have any rings without Kareem. Those sidekicks were all top 50! Does that diminish what any of them did? Did they only win those rings because their teammates were clutch? It was a team effort in all cases. Without Paxon and Kerr hitting clutch shots, Jordan doesn't win 2 of his rings. Without "clutch" blocks on the Knicks from Grant, Jordan doesn't win one. Without a miracle skyhook from Magic, Kareem doesn't win one. Without Mr. Clutch on his team, Wilt doesn't get one. So just because Shaq didn't hit "clutch" shots, that doesn't diminish any of his titles. He carried the team to the 4th quarter. So, using your logic, he was carried the team for 3/4 of the game and Kobe shined in the other 1/4. Is that what you're saying?

When Shaq faced big men he came up short? Since when does facing Dream in his prime and averaging basically the same numbers (Shaq's 2nd year in the league, mind you) equate to coming up short? He averaged basically the same stats while fighting thru double and triple teams while he covered Akeem mostly by himself. And came up short against Alonzo, Vlade, Ewing, Mutombo, Smits, Sabonis, DRob, and all other centers? Are you kidding? He destroyed every center in the league! Being from Indiana, I'm sure you'll remember how he punked Smits all those years. Wasn't Smits on one of the Finals teams he destroyed? And What about Mutombo? He made Deke look like a girl in those finals, and I believe they swept those finals. So name me one center that punk'd Oneal. So far, the only one that has punk'd Shaq has been Ashton Kutcher!!

If Kobe retired today, what would make him top 10 or top 25? His 3 rings? Well, those are the same ones Shaq has, and you are saying Shaq isn't top 10, although he was clearly the MAIN reason for those 3 'chips. I'm not mad about your post. I just disagree with the reasoning. I don't think any center has ever bested Oneal. The closest has been Dream head to head in one series, but I call that a wash because of the reasons above. If you count what the Mavericks did in the 06 Finals, take into account that zone defenses are allowed now, and that he was never covered by just 1 player. The Mavs often fronted and covered him and sent another defender or 2 in some cases when he got the ball.

If some stat guys in here have the time, can you find info about centers from 1993 to 2006 and compare their numbers?

[jaypo]

According to JordansBulls link, averages for Shaq and Dream in 1995 Finals:

Shaq- 28.0 points, 12.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, 44 of 74 field goals.
Dream- 32.8 points, 11.5 rebounds, 5.5 assists, 56 of 116 field goals.

So their numbers are basically equal, except that it took Dream 42 more shots to average 4 more ppg. Actually, Shaq had a better rebound and assist average than Dream. So how exactly is that coming up short? And I seem to remember his team not bailing him out in that series. Nick Anderson missed 4 key f/t's in the last 10 seconds allowing Kenny Smith to hit a game tying 3. So actually, the opposite is quite true.

While it may hold some water that he had help during his title years in the 4th, the same can be said that his team was carried by his dominance in the first 3!!!!

[ko8e]

According to JordansBulls link, averages for Shaq and Dream in 1995 Finals:

Shaq- 28.0 points, 12.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, 44 of 74 field goals.
Dream- 32.8 points, 11.5 rebounds, 5.5 assists, 56 of 116 field goals.

So their numbers are basically equal, except that it took Dream 42 more shots to average 4 more ppg. Actually, Shaq had a better rebound and assist average than Dream. So how exactly is that coming up short? And I seem to remember his team not bailing him out in that series. Nick Anderson missed 4 key f/t's in the last 10 seconds allowing Kenny Smith to hit a game tying 3. So actually, the opposite is quite true.

While it may hold some water that he had help during his title years in the 4th, the same can be said that his team was carried by his dominance in the first 3!!!!

Look, I understand you like Shaq. I'm just saying he's not top 10, in history. I only have 4 Centers in history ahead of him. Shaq got doubled a lot, so do a lot of centers. I remember Shaq in LA, he got away with a lot of butt to chest bumping, all the way to the basket. Later in his career when they started calling those fouls his numbers dipped a lot, and he started getting fouled out of games.

As far as being better than John Stockton, you are crazy. Championships aren't the only criteria in why a play is great. It's one of many factors.

The Centers.
Russell won more, had better defense, and rebounded better. Kareem won more and had better offense. Wilt was better offensively, defensively and rebounded better. Hakeem was more versatile, got the better of him in head to head match-ups, but he is closer to Hakeem than the other three. You can not make a case of him being as great as the other three.

[rowdystylz]

Are you sure your memory is correct Jaypo? It was 13 years ago but I remember it was Hakeem that was doubled and tripled more than Shaq (not to nitpick but that year was Shaq's 3rd year, not his 2nd). That's why Houston's perimeter shooters had so many wide-open shots and the Magic didn't.

And once again I fail to see where the argument is here since Shaq himself said he was dominated by Hakeem in that series.

[jaypo]

He did say that Akeem was the best in the league after that series. But he was also playing against Akeem in his prime as a 3rd year player. I watched one of the games about a month ago on ESPN classic, and they doubled Shaq a lot more than Orlando doubled Akeem. (I thought he came into the league in 93, not 92. They say that the memory is the first thing to go! My bad).

I just personally think that while Akeem was more fundamentally skilled, Shaq was more dominant and had a better career than Dream. That's not knocking Akeem at all. I still think he was the most skilled big man ever. I just think Shaq was more dominant because of his combination of size and athleticizm.

ko8e-the refs have always called Shaq the same. He got called for a lot of offensive fouls early in his career as well. But my argument is that he does the same thing that Jordan did his entire career; Barkley made a living doing it, but since Shaq is so big, players flop and fall, and it becomes an offensive foul. Personally, I think it's crap, but that is how the game has been called. It doesn't matter though. If you want to make a case that he only dominated because he got the calls- look at Duncan's career. That man would be a below average player if he didn't get the whistles constantly.

I never said Stockton wasn't good, but if you put him above Shaq because he had a lot of assists, then is Marc Jackson higher on that list than Shaq? He had a lot of assists as well. On all time lists, look up points, rebounds, and blocks and tell me where Shaq ranks on those categories. I'm pretty sure he's higher than Stockton on all 3 and pretty high up on at least points and rebounds.

I can make a case for him being as great as any of the other 3. It is left to one's opinion. I think Russell would not have won nearly as much if he would have been playing in the league in the 90's, so who's to say that Shaq wouldn't have destroyed him (and I'm pretty sure he would have, seeing how he outweighed Russell by 100 lbs) if they went head to head. Kareem would have had to guard Shaq on defense, and Shaq would have had to guard Kareem. But Kareem wasn't as physical to guard as Shaq was, so I think Kareem would have worn down as a series would go on. Wilt is about the most evenly matched with Shaq. I know the old guys say that no one was as dominant, but again, who's to say that he would have those numbers if he played against the competition in the 90's? I'm just playing devil's advocate.

See my stats above about Akeem and Shaq head to head in 1 series. Remember, Shaq was a 3rd year player (thanks, Rowdy), and Akeem was in his prime. Their numbers wash, so neither owned the other. Houston's supporting cast took that series from Shaq. Overall, Shaq has better credentials. He's a 4 time champion, he's been MVP (should have 2 more than he has), finals MVP 3 times, scoring champ, great playoff averages, all star MVP, ROY, and the leader of a 3peat team in a loaded Western Conference.

When you ask someone who was the most dominant player in the 1990's and 2000's, how many people are gonna say John Stockton? The most glaring statistic is 4 to zero. And don't say that Shaq only got rings because he played with great players, because last time I checked, Stockton played with the 2nd all time scorer and arguably the best PF in the game. Do you think he would have had that many assists running the PnR with AC Green?

And no one has answered my question about the reasons Kobe should be top 10 as of right now.