What about free agents?

[JES12]

LOL at Dirk being a tweener.

Kobe was a tweener with Shaq.
Shaq was a tweener with Wade
Pistons and Spurs are all tweeners

[dirtyfilthynasty]

If you ask people on other boards, i think they will agree with Teffer. Dirk is a very good player but I think it is definitely questionable whether or not he can lead a team to a championship.

When it comes down to crunch time, i don't know if you can consistently count on a slow perimeter player. The stats are nice but how many slow perimeter players have led their team to championships.

And please don't bring up the lack of talent argument. Dirk has had plenty of talent around him. If you want to see scrubs, look at the talent that Kobe had on his team post Shaq and pre-Gasol or look at the talent that Lebron has been surrounded by his whole career. Lebron would kill to play with the people that Dirk has.

[italy_23]

And please don't bring up the lack of talent argument. Dirk has had plenty of talent around him. If you want to see scrubs, look at the talent that Kobe had on his team post Shaq and pre-Gasol or look at the talent that Lebron has been surrounded by his whole career. Lebron would kill to play with the people that Dirk has.

and they have acomplished exactly what?
lets see: kobe missed the playoffs once, got first round losses twice
lebron got two second round losses and reached the finals once. what happened in the finals when the cavs met the mighty west? 0-4

playing in the west you always needed a whole lot of talent around if you wanted to win the championship. shaq and kobe were two of the top 3 players at the time. plus they had a nice group of role players to sweeten the roster.
the spurs had duncan and robinson, best front court in the league back then. afterwards they had (or have) duncan, parker and ginobili.

so yeah, dirk had the talent. the talent to constantly reach the playoffs, get out of the first round here and there... but nothing more.
dont tell me that terry is the second option on a mudderfukkin CHAMPIONSHIPteam. or howard. lol

dirk took this group further than anybody could have expected. to the finals (with the JET as the second option by the way). yes, he should have gone all the way as it was probably his only opportunity to win it all but it wasnt meant to be.

I can tell you one thing dfn, a talented supporting cast is something else.
give kobe this group with terry and howard and harris and george and jones and ager and who else was/is here. even he wont take you to the promised land. and we are speakin of the best player in the game right now. maybe he wouldnt even carry the team to the finals, maybe.

[Rand10]

All I know is that Dirk is the best player our franchise has ever had in 28 years. You just don't trade a guy like that when he's in his prime.

If we rebuild it's likely that we won't find a player as good as Dirk for a very long time. All those draft picks look great until they don't pan out.

[Teffer10]

All I know is that Dirk is the best player our franchise has ever had in 28 years. You just don't trade a guy like that when he's in his prime.

If we rebuild it's likely that we won't find a player as good as Dirk for a very long time. All those draft picks look great until they don't pan out.

No argument that dirk is the best this franchise has ever had but this franchise has never won a championship so that really doesn't say a whole lot about him.

I love everything about Dirk but do not see him as a leader. Individual stats should not be the only factors because Kidd's career stats are pretty impressive but what has he accomplished with a team?

Dirk simply has too many question marks in his game to be considered a superstar or a 1 imo.

[Captain_Obvious]

I feel like i watched the wrong team or sth. Dirk playing hurt, coming back from injury a lot of players would have sit out.
Seriously, Treffer, if you feel Dirk isnt the clear cut leader of this team and has not lead by example in the most crutial time this season, i have to question your objectivity. You want a scapegoat, not a thought-out reason why the season was cut short.

[Teffer10]

I feel like i watched the wrong team or sth. Dirk playing hurt, coming back from injury a lot of players would have sit out.
Seriously, Treffer, if you feel Dirk isnt the clear cut leader of this team and has not lead by example in the most crutial time this season, i have to question your objectivity. You want a scapegoat, not a thought-out reason why the season was cut short.

This team has no leader. Dirk may be the best player, by far, but that doesn't automatically make him a good leader.
Dirk is a very good player and has great character...I've never questioned that. There is no question that he is one of the most skilled players in the league right now. However, he simply does not have the traits to be a great leader for this team and that becomes more and more evident each season and nobody seems to be able to see this.

The point that I'm trying to make is not to knock Dirk though, but rather to knock the FO for failing to make the moves to get the right pieces around him. That includes getting a "hell of a #2" or a #1. Now it is too late to get that piece because we have absolutely no trade pieces to make that work and Dirk is flat out not talented enough to carry this team on his shoulders.
That is why it is time to move him because of his current value. That is the only way the FO can make up for the bonehead or should I say lack of moves in the previous 2 off-seasons.

[DDansby123]

Didn't expect this conversation in a thread about FAs, but here goes...

(1) Dirk's a #1, but he's certainly not a #1 who can win a championship without a pretty incredible sidekick. And I'm not talking about a borderline All-Star or two. That being the case...

(2) Dirk hasn't had enough talent around him to win a championship. And let's not confuse overall talent with talent that actually works well together. That includes the coach and the front office. But...

(3) We don't have the assets to acquire the talent (that may not even be available now, anyway) to help Dirk win a ring. So...

(4) A few of us think we ought to trade him now and get the highest value possible for him, thereby improving our chances of having a successful rebuild (which is inevitable) and improving Dirk's chances of winning a championship (in my opinion). It's nothing personal against Dirk, and most of us would prefer to keep him and win a championship...we've just resigned ourselves to the fact that it's probably not possible.

Finally, (5) no, I don't think Dirk's proven himself to be a good leader or a reliable late-game (championship) #1.

[sweet daddy]

-= original quote snipped =-
No argument that dirk is the best this franchise has ever had but this franchise has never won a championship so that really doesn't say a whole lot about him.

I love everything about Dirk but do not see him as a leader. Individual stats should not be the only factors because Kidd's career stats are pretty impressive but what has he accomplished with a team?

Dirk simply has too many question marks in his game to be considered a superstar or a 1 imo.

Karl Malone and John Stockton, two of the 50 greatest players EVER, played together for 18 years and didn't win an NBA title. They were together for 12 YEARS before they made it to the finals. Got knocked out of the playoffs in the first round 9 times. Does that mean that Karl Malone was not a leader, or a 1st option?

Jordan, arguably the greatest player ever, didn't win a championship until his 7th year. Like Malone, he also played with another of the 50 greatest players ever, and a terrific supporting cast, and they played together for 4 years before they won a championship. Was Jordan not a first option until his 7th year? Was he not a leader before that?

Dirk Nowitzki was in the league for 5 years before he led his team to the Conference Finals. He has led them there twice, and to the finals once, one year later in his career than Jordan did. Since he entered the league his teams are a combined 517-271, or 66% . The best player he ever played with was Steve Nash. He led them to the finals 2 years after Nash left, when the 2nd best player on the team was ... Jason Terry. His teams have made it out of the first round 5 out of 8 times.

Guys, you can talk about impressions all you want to, but facts are facts. His teams win games, his teammates all acknowledge him as the best player on the team, he leads by example on the floor, he plays injured and almost never misses games, and when the game is on the line, the ball goes to him. What other realistic definition of leader is there?

If the team is in decline, it isn't because of him. If you trade him now, it may be YEARS before this team recovers. I don't want to watch that. I want to see management pull their head out and get him some frickin' support.

[Teffer10]

[quote="sweet daddy"][/quote]

First of all SD, I want to apologize for my adolescent response to you earlier in the thread. That is a bit out of character for me.

I don't disagree with all of the information that you have provided because Dirk should be commended for what he has accomplished for this franchise. His numbers are incredible and I think he is a very unique talent in this league.

As I stated, my problem isn't with Dirk, it is more with the FO. I completely agree that Dirk is in need of help but the difference that we seem to have is that I think Dirk needs much more help than what is available out there (which was basically my original point). In other words, I think Dirk needs a guy that is very close to his level for this team to have any type of chance next season. Redd, Sheed, Marion, VC, JO, Mike Miller, Maggette, and some others that have been mentioned will not make good enough 2s (sidekicks) imo unless we can get one of them without giving up Howard, Kidd, or Dirk.
That seems virtually impossible and I'm not even convinced that would be enough.
If the Mavs could net Maggette or Hamilton and Marion and only give up Howard, Stack and Bass, I would be somewhat satisfied with the off-season (not excited though).
However, I don't see that as being realistic so I would rather attempt to rebuild using Dirk's tremendous current value. I honestly do not see this team competing with the Lakers next season and I don't want to see us fall into a trap of winning just enough games to make the POs for the next several years and then going out in the first round.
If we could trade Dirk and all of our long contracts for a combination of several young players, draft picks (at least 2 lotto) and some expiring or shorter contracts, we would have a pretty decent foundation for rebuilding and set ourselves up for signing some bigtime FAs in the next few years.

Just looking at some of our options from different angles but I am in no way knocking Dirk for his skills and accomplishments. I just don't think he has enough of the right skills to carry THIS team to a championship and that implication has seemed to spark this debate.

[italy_23]

(1) Dirk's a #1, but he's certainly not a #1 who can win a championship without a pretty incredible sidekick.
...

Finally, (5) no, I don't think Dirk's proven himself to be a good leader or a reliable late-game (championship) #1.

(1) who is the player who can win a championship without a pretty incredible sidekick???
lebron? well, he has exactly 0 rings
kobe? nope, he needed both odom AND gasol only to reach the finals. didnt get out of the first round before!
anybody else? dont think so.


(5) as I mentioned before I think dirk proved over and over again to be a very good leader. the only players I would like to have in crucial parts of the game are kobe, lebron and paul. in that order. but again, even they wont win anything if they dont have other stars besides them. go and ask them if you want.

or to give you an example: kobe getting trippled and passing out to a wide open stack, who then fails to make the shot...

[DDansby123]

-= original quote snipped =-
(1) who is the player who can win a championship without a pretty incredible sidekick???

Tim Duncan for one. If Kobe wins this year, he's in that category as well (don't pretend like Odom's anything special, and I don't put Gasol in the incredible category). LeBron has done more with less than Dirk ever has. Scottie Pippen was in the incredible category...use that as a reference point.

But ultimately those aren't appropriate comparisons, because they're all easily better than Dirk. If you want to stick to your argument, though, which is essentially that every player needs an incredible sidekick, you've made my point for me: Dirk needs an incredible sidekick, doesn't have one, and can't get one.

(5) as I mentioned before I think dirk proved over and over again to be a very good leader. the only players I would like to have in crucial parts of the game are kobe, lebron and paul. in that order. but again, even they wont win anything if they dont have other stars besides them. go and ask them if you want.

We'll agree to disagree with Dirk's leadership abilities. As I said, though, who he has around him isn't the issue. Dirk going one on one in isolation doesn't give me a ton of confidence late in a game, either. He's not a choker or anything, IMO, but he still doesn't strike me as the guy who really wants the ball in the waning moments of a game.

Regardless, his leadership has almost nothing to do with reasons for trading Dirk.

[italy_23]

tim duncan has not only one, but two players who are better than anything on the mavs roster other than nowitzki.
also the lakers odom and gasol are both better than any player on the mavs other than dirk.

[HMFFL]

this is getting ugly.
I think we have discussed every reasonable posibility (marion, artest, maggette, miller, even redd, JO...) and just have to wait and see what happens.
the latest trade proposals and free agent ideas ^^^^... I dont know man. It's just ugly and makes no sense whatsoever. better be quiet

I'm not expecting us to acquire a name, but I would like for us to update our bench, and try to move some of the older veterans that are on it. The only way I see us acquiring a star is by moving Josh Howard and finding a sucker to take Jason Terry or Jerry Stackhouse.

[Teffer10]

-= original quote snipped =-



We'll agree to disagree with Dirk's leadership abilities. As I said, though, who he has around him isn't the issue. Dirk going one on one in isolation doesn't give me a ton of confidence late in a game, either. He's not a choker or anything, IMO, but he still doesn't strike me as the guy who really wants the ball in the waning moments of a game.

Regardless, his leadership has almost nothing to do with reasons for trading Dirk.

And that was basically my original point. I don't see us getting that "hell of a 2" with the pieces we have so I think the strategy for the FO should be to attempt to find one for the future (3 years or so).

Trading Dirk and the rest of the veterans for draft picks, young potential, and expiring contracts gives the mavs some opportunities and leverage to develop or acquire a person that can possibly take us to another level.

If a Dirk trade does not happen, I foresee a lot of frustration and disappointment for mavs' players and fans over the next 5-8 years...if not longer.

I guess the difference between our perception and others is that we see the window of opportunity virtually closed and others still see it open.

[DDansby123]

tim duncan has not only one, but two players who are better than anything on the mavs roster other than nowitzki.
also the lakers odom and gasol are both better than any player on the mavs other than dirk.

Better than what we have now does not equate to incredible. It's going to take incredible at this point.