Is Jefferson Untouchable??

[younggunsmn]

-= original quote snipped =-


Why not? He's supposed to be the cornerstone of our franchise, why shouldn't we expect him to be a great defender.

Defensive stopper is a whole 'nother level from great defender. I don't expect him to be as good a defender as KG, simply adequate. He's a cornerstone, not the whole franchise like KG was. I think with Mayo and Brewer (and possibly Telfair) and a defensive minded Center we'd have a pretty good defensive supporting cast.

But if you're saying that for him to be truly untouchable he should also be a Great Defender, your point is well made.

I think he can be a pretty good 1-on-1 defender when he's at his natural position (the 4). He has the tools with his quick hands and feet and reach. It was really hard to watch him have to expend so much energy challenging guys in the lane and having to get every single defensive rebound because he was our only player with any size on the court.


Poohdini,
So you're set on Rose personally? Is that the general consensus on your board? If for some reason Miami takes Mayo at 2 what would it take to move Beasley for Rose? Would Miami's future 1st be enough?

Shrink that is pretty improbable, especially Miami sending Marion for bad deals just to exchange Rose and Beasley. And then we have almost no guard depth. I know it's just a dream, but...

One thing to consider is that Al is a Base Year Compensation player for this coming year, meaning it's almost impossible to trade him without involving a team that's under the salary cap.

[shrink]

-Yes, I know what it means but the fact that you tried to go in grave detail into why this deal works out, gives me the impression that you believe this so called "dream" has a shot of being realistic, and I'm just here to bring you back down to earth.

Maybe I took offense to your tone. Maybe I took offense to your use of the word rape.

Nocioni contract is not as bad as you make it out to be, and you make it sound as if it is impossible to move which is far from the case. He has more value than McCants being that he is able to play more positions and doubles his rebounding, and is alot better defensive player. Theres no doubt in my mind that teams are more likely to want Nocioni's services over McCants.

And here is where I stopped reading your post.

I have never found any useful poster to say things like "you make him out to be." People who do that are trying to put words into other people's mouths, and then argue with those words. Legitimate posters discuss what is said.


Nocioni is paid $36.5 mil more dollars through 2013, and he produced 13.2 PPG, 4.2 RPG, 1.2 APG, and shot FG 43.2% and 36.4% from 3P.

McCants numbers are 14.9 PPG, 2.7 RPG, 2.2 APG, FG 45.3% and 40.7% from 3P. And most importantly, McCants is owed $2.6 mil for this year

Now, when someone says what you've said, that other teams want to get worse stats for a far far worse contract, I realize I'm dealing with a homer.

When they say things like, "you make it sound like," I know I'm dealing with someone who doesn't want to discuss the facts, but just wants to argue.

When someone says things in such a rude manner, I realize that person is just immature, and not worth my time. The trifecta? Wow -- no thanks. If you suddenly started posting maturely and rationally later in your post, I apologize, but from your first post and the start of this one, I doubt that was going to happen.

[shrink]

Shrink that is pretty improbable, especially Miami sending Marion for bad deals just to exchange Rose and Beasley. And then we have almost no guard depth. I know it's just a dream, but... .

Agree its improbable, but it would take a pretty unprobable deal to get me to trade Al Jefferson.

I don't know what else MIA has to make the jump from 2-to-1 besides Marion. Supposedly Riley loves rose and isn't keen on Beasley, but I don't know. I did send them Nocioni, who I hear should be lumped in with #1, Noah, and Deng.

It was a 5-minute passing fancy. I didn't put a whole lot of thought in.

[Hold That]

-= original quote snipped =-


Poohdini,
So you're set on Rose personally? Is that the general consensus on your board? If for some reason Miami takes Mayo at 2 what would it take to move Beasley for Rose? Would Miami's future 1st be enough?

Miami's future first would be worthless to us because that team won't be in the lottery the next year I would assume. Wade Mayo and Marion should be sufficient enough to get them the 8th seed. Not to mention I really don't see the Bulls continue to stock up on draft picks either. We have enough yonug unproven talent.

I have never found any useful poster to say things like "you make him out to be." People who do that are trying to put words into other people's mouths, and then argue with those words. Legitimate posters discuss what is said.

So I'm not a legitimate poster now? Because I didnt meet your personal criteria..

ANYWAY, when you say "Nocioni is worth less than McCants" you are makign it sound as if his contract makes him impossible to move. How is that not discussing what you said? Thats how I took it. This was really pointless, and a worthless attempt to try to discredit what I said.

Yet it's funny you try to dwell on the Nocioni subject and try to say I'm immature yet, still have not addressed any other issues in your trade about us trading for an old Shawn Marion for Luol,or trading the #1 pick for Al Jefferson when we can grab a player potentially better in the draft, and throwing away Joakim Noah & Nocioni..

You knew your trade was horrible for the Bulls, this is why you avoided the discussion and tried to turn around and bash me personally(like a true probable psych major) but, it's an old pathetic tactic.

[younggunsmn]

Poohdini,
There are 6 pretty good teams in the east and 9 in the west, I think Miami's pick falling any lower than 16 are slim to none, especially if they draft a guard and have ZERO post presence. I honestly put their pick in the 8-15 range next year even if they draft Beasley because Wade's supporting cast is so bad.

I think there is alot of pressure to pick Rose, partly because he's a hometown kid and partly because picking Beasley is admitting Tyrus Thomas is a bust.
Picking Rose and then trading down to pick up Beasley and an asset is a way of getting Beasley and easing the backlash for not picking Rose. If they could unload a contract and/or pick up another 1st I think they'd have to seriously consider it.

Shrink has a point that Nocioni has one of the worst contracts in the league now for what he brings to the table as a serviceable bench player, and Hinrich's is not much better. Add in Larry Hughes and extensions for Gordon and Deng and you have an impending cap crisis. Decisions are going to have to be made here, and I think Hinrich and Hughes will be the first 2 out the door.

You do have a point that Shawn Marion is on the decline, but he's also going to be a huge expiring contract. If you can unload nocioni and Hinrich/hughes for him you HAVE to do it. It still leaves you with a strong core of:
Rose, Gordon/Thabo, Deng, Marion/Thomas/Gooden, Noah. Marion will be one of the most sought after players come trade deadline this year, both for his ability and contract.

Your strong response to what was an essentially "hey, since we're discussing it, i'll throw it out there" trade idea is what generated alot of negative response for you. All it was is an excercise in gauging Al Jefferson's value. If you want to participate please tell us what you think fair value would be, most of use here feel he has proven he is worth at least the #1 pick and a young post player like thomas or noah. Personally I still wouldn't do that deal.

[cpfsf]

Poohdini,
There are 6 pretty good teams in the east and 9 in the west, I think Miami's pick falling any lower than 16 are slim to none, especially if they draft a guard and have ZERO post presence. I honestly put their pick in the 8-15 range next year even if they draft Beasley because Wade's supporting cast is so bad.

I agree they have a bad team and won't make the playoffs (why would they want to be destroyed by Boston anyway). However, I disagree with your argument about post presence considering Alonzo Mourning wants to play again in Miami. Mourning is still a pretty good defensive presence on the court and of course would be a huge upgrade over Blount. That would result in a lineup of Quinn-Wade-Marion-Beasley-Mourning. If they manage to acquire Rose, then they would have a lineup of Rose-Wade-Marion-Haslem-Mourning which is not too bad at all.

[younggunsmn]

I was speaking of an offensive post prescence, which Mourning is not. Even if he comes back Mourning is not even a 30 minute per game player anymore, and he hasn't been an offensive force for years.

Wade was the only player on their team post-shaq trade who would take a shot in the painted area last year, and I see absolutely no improvement from them until that is rectified because they are much too easy to defend that way.

[Hold That]

-= original quote snipped =-



I agree they have a bad team and won't make the playoffs (why would they want to be destroyed by Boston anyway). However, I disagree with your argument about post presence considering Alonzo Mourning wants to play again in Miami. Mourning is still a pretty good defensive presence on the court and of course would be a huge upgrade over Blount. That would result in a lineup of Quinn-Wade-Marion-Beasley-Mourning. If they manage to acquire Rose, then they would have a lineup of Rose-Wade-Marion-Haslem-Mourning which is not too bad at all.

It's not about not wanting "to be destroyed by Boston" it's about them keeping Wade happy and feeling like the organization is actually trying to compete and win.

You guys are forgetting that D-Wade is a free agent in 2010, and will almost certainly get a max contract offer from Chicago and other teams for his services. By that time Chicago will already be in the thick of the Eastern conference and if Wade's team still hasnt made the playoffs by then, he's going to leave. They are in WIN NOW mode, due to Wade's contract status. The Heat have only 2 more seasons to turn this thing around.