I'm baffled - topic related to Alston trade(s)
I'm baffled - topic related to Alston trade(s)
- moofs
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I'm baffled - topic related to Alston trade(s)
How is it that this is the first offseason since we've got him that I think trading Rafer (probably for Hinrich) might finally be both do-able and a good idea (Rafer's likely due to start aging defensively soon), yet not a single person that I've seen, also for the first offseason, has proposed trading him thus far? Instead we seem to be going after trading Battier and Scola, then throwing away our 8+ million in expirings for magic beans.
REALLY, we don't NEED to make any trades. Not that I'm against a good one, mind you, but the biggest key for next year is staying healthy. Past that, our biggest problems are outside shooting and backup pg/sg/sf, with possible starting pg replacement needed as well (assuming Rafer isn't one of those few-per-10-years-non-aging-freaks).
Could someone please de-confuse me?
REALLY, we don't NEED to make any trades. Not that I'm against a good one, mind you, but the biggest key for next year is staying healthy. Past that, our biggest problems are outside shooting and backup pg/sg/sf, with possible starting pg replacement needed as well (assuming Rafer isn't one of those few-per-10-years-non-aging-freaks).
Could someone please de-confuse me?
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I think people have given up on trading Rafer. They know that Rafer has very little value and we're not likely to get an equivalent talent if we're to trade him.
On the other hand, both Battier and Scola have more value than Rafer. Also, it appears that many teams around the league are interested in them - again, more so than Rafer. Hence, we see these (Please Use More Appropriate Word) Battier/Scola trade proposals emerge in every other thread.
I don't think we should trade any of our starters unless if we can upgrade any of the starting positions. I would love to see a Rafer for Hinrich deal, but the Bulls are very close to making Derrick Rose their future PG. I don't see why the Bulls should trade for Rafer.
On the other hand, both Battier and Scola have more value than Rafer. Also, it appears that many teams around the league are interested in them - again, more so than Rafer. Hence, we see these (Please Use More Appropriate Word) Battier/Scola trade proposals emerge in every other thread.
I don't think we should trade any of our starters unless if we can upgrade any of the starting positions. I would love to see a Rafer for Hinrich deal, but the Bulls are very close to making Derrick Rose their future PG. I don't see why the Bulls should trade for Rafer.
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His value is low but is contract is decent. The only team that I think might really have an interest is New York. He is pretty well known there and a better option at PG than any of their current guards, especially under D'Antoni. Also, a significant upgrade in talent at the position would cost us double what Rafer gets or mean we'd have to trade a starter.
Hinrich =10 mil, TJ Ford=8mil. Its just really hard to do.
Our best chance at a real upgrade would be a sign and trade in free agency. For example, if Washington decides not to re-sign Arenas and he wanted to come here, we could get him at a lower value (expirings +youth+ picks) just because they wouldn't want to lose him for nothing. I would love to see that happen.
Hinrich =10 mil, TJ Ford=8mil. Its just really hard to do.
Our best chance at a real upgrade would be a sign and trade in free agency. For example, if Washington decides not to re-sign Arenas and he wanted to come here, we could get him at a lower value (expirings +youth+ picks) just because they wouldn't want to lose him for nothing. I would love to see that happen.
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Easy. Very good backup who's capable of starting and only maybe .5 mil overpriced at worst (his contract is really pretty decent). They cut salary on Hinrich in the process, and at least for the immediate future get back reasonably equivalent talent. We get back a guy who is likely to provide about what Rafer did, quite possibly a little more, albeit at an inflated price, but also more likely to last out the rest of the Yao/TMac combo, and his contract gets MORE palatable as years go by, rather than less (3 cheers for frontloading). Rafer turns to an expiring after this year, which frees Chicago up even more if they want to pursue, say, LeBron in 2010/11 (i can't believe those years are foreseeably (sp?) typeable (sp?) now - obviously they wouldn't be trading the expiring, but rather taking the freed-up cash themselves). If they don't want to go after LeBron, they could always trade him away after this year for another piece or as part of a package. Rafer also provides Chicago excellent, and cheaper, insurance, in case Rose is a bust or gets injured (and most people prefer cheap insurance policies to expensive ones).
Personally, I think Rafer has very good value. The problem has always been your other point - that we wouldn't have ever been able to get back an equivalent talent if we had traded him. That is partly because of his good value, as opposed to his untradeable status being a result of other teams not wanting him. Chicago thought they had a young core prior to this year, and wasn't looking to trade Hinrich. Prior to talking with Iggy, I was sour on Hinrich's inflated price, but have since decided that it's a nice, forward-thinking move. It really ends up helping both teams.
To the main Battier/Scola point, it sounds like what you're basically saying is that people are proposing the trades because they're the easiest ones to think of (even if they make far, far less sense than just about every other option we have). Sounds about right.
: sigh :
Personally, I think Rafer has very good value. The problem has always been your other point - that we wouldn't have ever been able to get back an equivalent talent if we had traded him. That is partly because of his good value, as opposed to his untradeable status being a result of other teams not wanting him. Chicago thought they had a young core prior to this year, and wasn't looking to trade Hinrich. Prior to talking with Iggy, I was sour on Hinrich's inflated price, but have since decided that it's a nice, forward-thinking move. It really ends up helping both teams.
To the main Battier/Scola point, it sounds like what you're basically saying is that people are proposing the trades because they're the easiest ones to think of (even if they make far, far less sense than just about every other option we have). Sounds about right.

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moofs wrote:Easy. Very good backup who's capable of starting and only maybe .5 mil overpriced at worst (his contract is really pretty decent). They cut salary on Hinrich in the process, and at least for the immediate future get back reasonably equivalent talent. We get back a guy who is likely to provide about what Rafer did, quite possibly a little more, albeit at an inflated price, but also more likely to last out the rest of the Yao/TMac combo, and his contract gets MORE palatable as years go by, rather than less (3 cheers for frontloading). Rafer turns to an expiring after this year, which frees Chicago up even more if they want to pursue, say, LeBron in 2010/11 (i can't believe those years are foreseeably (sp?) typeable (sp?) now - obviously they wouldn't be trading the expiring, but rather taking the freed-up cash themselves). If they don't want to go after LeBron, they could always trade him away after this year for another piece or as part of a package. Rafer also provides Chicago excellent, and cheaper, insurance, in case Rose is a bust or gets injured (and most people prefer cheap insurance policies to expensive ones).
Personally, I think Rafer has very good value. The problem has always been your other point - that we wouldn't have ever been able to get back an equivalent talent if we had traded him. That is partly because of his good value, as opposed to his untradeable status being a result of other teams not wanting him. Chicago thought they had a young core prior to this year, and wasn't looking to trade Hinrich. Prior to talking with Iggy, I was sour on Hinrich's inflated price, but have since decided that it's a nice, forward-thinking move. It really ends up helping both teams.
I forgot that Duhon is a FA this off-season. You are right. Rafer will provide that insurance at the point. And he's not all that overpriced considering he makes about 5 million a year; even the MLE costs more than that. However, his contract doesn't end until '10.
Hinrich for Rafer and Jackson makes sense. We might have to add a 2nd round pick.
To the main Battier/Scola point, it sounds like what you're basically saying is that people are proposing the trades because they're the easiest ones to think of (even if they make far, far less sense than just about every other option we have). Sounds about right.: sigh :
Not just that. I'm disgusted with all these TOFs & YOFs (thanks compucomp, these terms come in handy), who have absolutely no respect for our role players. I mean come on, Battier has played only 2 seasons with the Rockets, and Scola just a year. It's too early to trade these players just for the sake of improving only one aspect of the game, namely a 3rd scoring option. Since both Yao and McGrady have high usage rate, we need players who can produce buckets without dominating the ball. Guys who can facilitate ball movement and play defense yet still capable of hitting the open 3 or the midrange jumper. Battier and Scola, while they aren't big time scorers, shoot a decent percentage and knows how to play off the ball. I am almost certain that Battier and Scola are quality role players that many teams can only dream of having. In each year for the past 3 years, Morey has done something special for this team. We got Rafer in 05', Battier in 06', and Scola in 07'. And we have managed to win 50+ games in the past two years with an injured Yao or/and an injured McGrady. Now, that's something to be proud of. Yet, our fans have very little appreciation for the team CD/Morey has assembled. They rather see these guys go when we haven't even met our potential.
I swear these guys prefer giving role players 10-day contracts so that they can waive them after one bad game/series.
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DraftBoy10 wrote:I'd like Hinrich very much so on this team, however I wouldn't really like to add Jackson. Though I can't see a way out of it.
In that case, we'd be moving Jackson, not adding him

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- moofs
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Amel wrote:besides the age factor, I dont see him much of an upgrade
Yer, he's not. About the only real upgrades over Alston at PG are All-Stars and Bibby. The age factor could become an important issue anytime now, however. I really think it's something we need to be mindful of unless we want to get blindsided or if Brooks improves a lot.
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Hinrich is so overrated it's ridiculous. He didn't just have a down year, he sucks. Look at this years stats compared to his career. Not much different, are they. He's a chucker, and an overvalued one at that.
Besides, the Bulls will certainly get better offers than Alston.
Besides, the Bulls will certainly get better offers than Alston.
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Dinky Bits wrote:Hinrich is so overrated it's ridiculous. He didn't just have a down year, he sucks. Look at this years stats compared to his career. Not much different, are they. He's a chucker, and an overvalued one at that.
Besides, the Bulls will certainly get better offers than Alston.
+1
Reason people(including me) are proposing deals with Scola and Battier in them is because they're actually wanted by other teams. They have value, they are coveted. Face it, Alston is a mediocre point guard that are more valuable to Houston than other teams. I seriously doubt Chicago would take Alston and jackson for Hinrich. On the other hand, Battier(who i love to death) can bring back the likes of Odom, Turk, Artest, etc.
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Dinky Bits wrote:Hinrich is so overrated it's ridiculous. He didn't just have a down year, he sucks. Look at this years stats compared to his career. Not much different, are they. He's a chucker, and an overvalued one at that.
Besides, the Bulls will certainly get better offers than Alston.
I hear you on that. Believe me, I was saying that same thing for the longest time (except for the "sucks" and "overrated" and with "overpaid" and "not a significant upgrade" instead). Re-read my points. If necessary, I could try to find that old Alston/Hinrich thread Iggy and I had that convinced me otherwise. We would take on 3 million in salary, but it would be worth it for the modest increases in fg% and avoiding a dropoff in defense. At this point, the last thing we want is to lose a year from a major hiccup at PG. (1oz prevention == 1lb cure + blah blah blah etc.)
I don't know what kind of better offers they would get. Which other teams would want Hinrich and what would they offer? He IS overpriced, so any suitors are going to have to really need a PG and offer the Bulls one in return as the aforementioned insurance policy for Rose. If Duhon leaves, and they decide to draft Beasley, this whole thing is likely groundbound regardless.
As a side note, I think this trade could be compatible with the Jackson/Head | McCants/Jaric trade
(
http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic. ... &start=393
http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic. ... &start=374
)
, were we, by some crazy whacked-out chance, to decide to do both.
(I've successfully derailed my own thread, awesome!)
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moofs wrote:Yer, he's not. About the only real upgrades over Alston at PG are All-Stars and Bibby.
IMO he is.I would even say that he is more of an upgrade than BibbY.Yeah, Bibby knows RA gameplan, but his defense is atrocious, and he would not have the same role with our team he had with the Rockets(he would get less the ball, Kings did not have a guy who needed the ball often on the perimeter to be sucessfull, and CWebb was less a post player than Yao is).
I've already said it, but IMO, while I like Alston, we can't decently turn off a good offer for Hinrich.
He's like a "Alston v1.2", yes he's paid more, but he's better in quite a few areas.
moofs wrote:I would love to see a Rafer for Hinrich deal, but the Bulls are very close to making Derrick Rose their future PG. I don't see why the Bulls should trade for Rafer.
Why would the Bulls want Rafer??
They could want him for his contract, a rather good one, and the fact that he could be an excellent teacher for D.Rose.
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I dont care who we get but we need an upgrade at the point because T-Mac can't be our assist leader anymore if we want to get anywhere other than the first round of the playoffs
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The Trade Alston bandwagon lost alot of steam because of the Playoffs. He's out and Rockets lose. He plays and the Rockets win(and the loss in Utah should have been a win if the ref had called Boozer for the two-handed shove of McGrady on the FT miss).
Alston isn't untradeable,there are several teams that would like him. But you would have to replace him and there aren't too many alternatives out there.
As for Hinrich,he will make over $5mil MORE than Alston in 08-09,a significant factor for a team pushing against the Lux tax as is.That alone would kill any trade. But also working against trading Alston(Francis,Head)for Hinrich is that Hinrich would not be an upgrade. Hinrich may be a better shooter,but Alston is a better ballhandler,can't be pressured,brings the ball up substantially faster,doesn't turn the ball over and knows his role.
At the deadline last season Morey almost traded Alston FOR Artest,but the deal fell thru. I don't buy the no Brooks,no deal explanation. I think Morey had another deal working for a PG that collapsed and then he pulled the plug on Alston trade. I would love to know who that PG was.(Pure speculation but was Morey working on a Bonzi,Snyder,Francis,cash and a First to Philly for Andre Miller? Then follow that w/Artest trade? Miller,T-Mac,Artest w/Battier 6th Man?)
Alston isn't untradeable,there are several teams that would like him. But you would have to replace him and there aren't too many alternatives out there.
As for Hinrich,he will make over $5mil MORE than Alston in 08-09,a significant factor for a team pushing against the Lux tax as is.That alone would kill any trade. But also working against trading Alston(Francis,Head)for Hinrich is that Hinrich would not be an upgrade. Hinrich may be a better shooter,but Alston is a better ballhandler,can't be pressured,brings the ball up substantially faster,doesn't turn the ball over and knows his role.
At the deadline last season Morey almost traded Alston FOR Artest,but the deal fell thru. I don't buy the no Brooks,no deal explanation. I think Morey had another deal working for a PG that collapsed and then he pulled the plug on Alston trade. I would love to know who that PG was.(Pure speculation but was Morey working on a Bonzi,Snyder,Francis,cash and a First to Philly for Andre Miller? Then follow that w/Artest trade? Miller,T-Mac,Artest w/Battier 6th Man?)
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jove9 wrote:Thanks Moofs, for starting the "trade Rafer" discussion once again.
Just what we needed.
I'M BORED, OK?
Also it's a helluva lot better and more realistic than scola or battier trades, both of which are gonna drive me nuts if they don't get drowned out.
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