Wow. People are down on Reggie Miller. One of my favorite players, and maybe the only guy that I ever felt sorry for on another team because he didn't win a championship. He was a better shooter than Ray, but not better at defense or going to the rim.
Who knows what these hall of fame voters are going to do? I agree, the safest thing is to win a couple more. If PP and RA play at this level for two more years, then I'd have to guess they're in.
Does a championship solidfy HOF careers for The Big Three?
Moderators: bisme37, Froob, Darthlukey, Shak_Celts, Parliament10, canman1971, shackles10, snowman
-
nyhuskyfan
- Senior
- Posts: 667
- And1: 127
- Joined: Jul 06, 2007
notque wrote:Honestly, I'd argue Dale Ellis was better then Ray Allen. And Ray Allen is one of my favorite players in the league.
This is just an incredibly subjective argument, and I don't see how you can compare a guy that was in the playoffs consistently in big moments, and someone that wasn't.
It just isn't comparable, even if it's not Ray's fault.
Dale Ellis made one All-Star game. Ray Allen has been in eight.
Ray has been a more complete player, too. Ellis averaged 1.4 assists in his career, Allen has averaged 3.9. Ray has also averaged a rebound per game more.
As for their playoff performances, Ellis averaged 14 points in 73 career playoff games and never played in the NBA Finals (and only reached the conference finals once). Allen has averaged 21 points in 61 career playoff games. Odds are by this time next year, he'll have played in more playoff games than Ellis (barring health problems, a trade, or a Boston freefall or first round upset).
Ellis' best 3-year window was a little better than Allen's statistically, and his career field goal percentage was marginally better, but other than that, there aren't many ticks in the Ellis column when comparing the two.
-
blaha112
- Senior
- Posts: 501
- And1: 7
- Joined: Jun 29, 2006
this will be my last reply because i really don't want to get into it anymore. esp when this is dealing with subjective opinions so i guess there can be no "right" answer. but in case your wondering my opinion is the right one... 
my feeling; reggie miller is the deadliest three point shooter of all time, period. led his team to a finals. that is more than ray ever did. you talked about ray almost taking his team to a finals except he got hurt. only his team was losing by 7 points before he got hurt...
until ray was teamed with one of the best players in the game KG and a force, PP, ray had never been here. obviously now ray's supporting cast is better than reggies ever was.
reggie would have won some championships but unfortunately he played during the same era as some "jordan" guy. also the year he made it to the finals was the start of a dynasty by some "shaq" and "kobe" guys.
Make reggie and ray the same age (make reggie ten years younger). The C's this year would be so much better with reggie versus ray. it wouldn't even be close.
Taking thier current careers into account, if i was drafting nba players (again ray and reggie same age) there's no doubt i would draft reggie before ray. it wouldn't even be a close decision.
rays a great player and i hope he gets his ring. but in terms of comparison;
Reggie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ray
peace, i'm out!
my feeling; reggie miller is the deadliest three point shooter of all time, period. led his team to a finals. that is more than ray ever did. you talked about ray almost taking his team to a finals except he got hurt. only his team was losing by 7 points before he got hurt...
until ray was teamed with one of the best players in the game KG and a force, PP, ray had never been here. obviously now ray's supporting cast is better than reggies ever was.
reggie would have won some championships but unfortunately he played during the same era as some "jordan" guy. also the year he made it to the finals was the start of a dynasty by some "shaq" and "kobe" guys.
Make reggie and ray the same age (make reggie ten years younger). The C's this year would be so much better with reggie versus ray. it wouldn't even be close.
Taking thier current careers into account, if i was drafting nba players (again ray and reggie same age) there's no doubt i would draft reggie before ray. it wouldn't even be a close decision.
rays a great player and i hope he gets his ring. but in terms of comparison;
Reggie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ray
peace, i'm out!
-
nyhuskyfan
- Senior
- Posts: 667
- And1: 127
- Joined: Jul 06, 2007
I'm not down on Reggie at all. He's a first ballot Hall of Famer.
As often happens in threads like these, arguments get distorted. I'm not saying Ray is or was better. I was vehemently disputing the notion that it was somehow a joke to compare the two. I have no beef with anyone who says they'd take Miller first. The primary thing Reggie has over Ray is more deep playoff runs and more memorable playoff moments. When you hit a game-winning three over Michael Jordan at the buzzer, or you hit a couple remarkable last minute threes at MSG and flash the choke sign at Spike Lee, your legend grows. When you hit a ridiculous fadeaway three-pointer over Brad Miller to cap off a 46-point effort in a win at Sacramento, nobody remembers.
Seriously, everyone here is an NBA fan. How many people remember that Ray Allen had a personal 19-0 run in Game 6 of the 2001 Eastern Conference finals. That was a seven minute stretch when Ray Allen had 19 points, and the Sixers had none. He finished with 41 points that day, including a playoff record nine three-pointers and it probably belongs in the pantheon of top elimination game performances in playoffs history, and nobody ever remembers it. I mean, seriously, how many times have you seen a player have an individual 19-0 run in any basketball game at any level? This was a do-or-die game for the Bucks for the right to go to the finals. But Spike Lee wasn't around to give the choke sign to (too bad, since Ray was in his movie).
In fairness, it might have been remembered more if the Sixers didn't win game 7, but you'd have to hyptonotize most people to even get them to remember Ray's performance. It's bizarre.
As often happens in threads like these, arguments get distorted. I'm not saying Ray is or was better. I was vehemently disputing the notion that it was somehow a joke to compare the two. I have no beef with anyone who says they'd take Miller first. The primary thing Reggie has over Ray is more deep playoff runs and more memorable playoff moments. When you hit a game-winning three over Michael Jordan at the buzzer, or you hit a couple remarkable last minute threes at MSG and flash the choke sign at Spike Lee, your legend grows. When you hit a ridiculous fadeaway three-pointer over Brad Miller to cap off a 46-point effort in a win at Sacramento, nobody remembers.
Seriously, everyone here is an NBA fan. How many people remember that Ray Allen had a personal 19-0 run in Game 6 of the 2001 Eastern Conference finals. That was a seven minute stretch when Ray Allen had 19 points, and the Sixers had none. He finished with 41 points that day, including a playoff record nine three-pointers and it probably belongs in the pantheon of top elimination game performances in playoffs history, and nobody ever remembers it. I mean, seriously, how many times have you seen a player have an individual 19-0 run in any basketball game at any level? This was a do-or-die game for the Bucks for the right to go to the finals. But Spike Lee wasn't around to give the choke sign to (too bad, since Ray was in his movie).
In fairness, it might have been remembered more if the Sixers didn't win game 7, but you'd have to hyptonotize most people to even get them to remember Ray's performance. It's bizarre.
-
blaha112
- Senior
- Posts: 501
- And1: 7
- Joined: Jun 29, 2006
ok one last post because i respect your last post.
i see what your saying. i only said i saw it as a joke because to me its like comparing jordan and reggie. reggie is my favorite player in the world but i would think it was a joke to say reggie was better than jordan. thats the same kind of thinking i had with this posting.
reggie also had a buzzer beeting 40 ft moment in game five against the nets. although if you watch it closely i think he got it off late (cant remember). then a dunk to send it into double ot. ultimately we lost game the game, but it was an amazing performance.
i have always respected ray and although i dont remember that 7 minute span, take nothing away from his accomplishments. as you said for whatever reason, they aren't remembered as much. i think he is an outstanding player and love his work ethic. i wish him the best and edit: I hope he continues to dominate for years to come.
i see what your saying. i only said i saw it as a joke because to me its like comparing jordan and reggie. reggie is my favorite player in the world but i would think it was a joke to say reggie was better than jordan. thats the same kind of thinking i had with this posting.
reggie also had a buzzer beeting 40 ft moment in game five against the nets. although if you watch it closely i think he got it off late (cant remember). then a dunk to send it into double ot. ultimately we lost game the game, but it was an amazing performance.
i have always respected ray and although i dont remember that 7 minute span, take nothing away from his accomplishments. as you said for whatever reason, they aren't remembered as much. i think he is an outstanding player and love his work ethic. i wish him the best and edit: I hope he continues to dominate for years to come.
-
nyhuskyfan
- Senior
- Posts: 667
- And1: 127
- Joined: Jul 06, 2007
(edited so you notice we both posted at the exact same time - I wasn't typing this one in response to the one above it).
During that Bucks run, there was also a play in Game 3 against Orlando, Bucks are down two, last 10 seconds of regulation, and Ray drove past Darrell Armstrong and dunked on Tracy McGrady's head to force overtime.
In the second round, Charlotte led 3-2 in Game 6 going home with a chance to clinch it. With 30 seconds left, Allen hits the tiebreaking three as the shot clock expired to force Game 7 back in Milwaukee, which the Bucks won by 20 or so. Again - big, big shot, wrong place (how many Milwaukee-Charlotte games do you think ESPN Classic is asking for).
2005 might have been the Spurs best team. The Sonics were down 2-0 after the first games in San Antoino (Ray sprained his ankle early in game 1 and played only 13 minutes). They also lost their second and third leading scorers for the remainder of the series (Lewis, Radmanovic). Ray's team won both in Seattle to tie it (Ray had 32 in Game 4), before the Spurs clinched in Game 6 with a two-point win (Ray missed a desperation three falling out of bounds in the corner off an inbounds pass that would have won it, but it would have been a total miracle shot).
Again, you can come up with a much longer list of Miller playoff highlights - I'm just saying that Ray has had more moments than people think, because he's done them in realtive obscurity and only the die-hards of those teams remember. That's why his playoff struggles this year were so disheartening in the early rounds, because people were getting the impression that he wasn't a good playoff performer, when he's actually been outstanding before.
He was truly unconscious against Sacramento. The Sonics were down 19 in the third quarter in Game 4, and he blitzed them with 46 as Seattle won on the road to go up 3-1, winning 4-1 back at home. Start this video at 2:20 if you wish:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QccBNv-oR_U
During that Bucks run, there was also a play in Game 3 against Orlando, Bucks are down two, last 10 seconds of regulation, and Ray drove past Darrell Armstrong and dunked on Tracy McGrady's head to force overtime.
In the second round, Charlotte led 3-2 in Game 6 going home with a chance to clinch it. With 30 seconds left, Allen hits the tiebreaking three as the shot clock expired to force Game 7 back in Milwaukee, which the Bucks won by 20 or so. Again - big, big shot, wrong place (how many Milwaukee-Charlotte games do you think ESPN Classic is asking for).
2005 might have been the Spurs best team. The Sonics were down 2-0 after the first games in San Antoino (Ray sprained his ankle early in game 1 and played only 13 minutes). They also lost their second and third leading scorers for the remainder of the series (Lewis, Radmanovic). Ray's team won both in Seattle to tie it (Ray had 32 in Game 4), before the Spurs clinched in Game 6 with a two-point win (Ray missed a desperation three falling out of bounds in the corner off an inbounds pass that would have won it, but it would have been a total miracle shot).
Again, you can come up with a much longer list of Miller playoff highlights - I'm just saying that Ray has had more moments than people think, because he's done them in realtive obscurity and only the die-hards of those teams remember. That's why his playoff struggles this year were so disheartening in the early rounds, because people were getting the impression that he wasn't a good playoff performer, when he's actually been outstanding before.
He was truly unconscious against Sacramento. The Sonics were down 19 in the third quarter in Game 4, and he blitzed them with 46 as Seattle won on the road to go up 3-1, winning 4-1 back at home. Start this video at 2:20 if you wish:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QccBNv-oR_U
-
nyhuskyfan
- Senior
- Posts: 667
- And1: 127
- Joined: Jul 06, 2007
I should put a shorter post to sum up what I think and bow out, lest the smears start flying:
I am a huge Ray Allen fan (the 'husky' in my handle might give that away). I never liked Reggie Miller when he played (but respected him). Given the choice between the two in their primes, I would have to admit I'd take Reggie. But Ray is in the discussion with him.
That's all I'm saying.
I am a huge Ray Allen fan (the 'husky' in my handle might give that away). I never liked Reggie Miller when he played (but respected him). Given the choice between the two in their primes, I would have to admit I'd take Reggie. But Ray is in the discussion with him.
That's all I'm saying.
-
PR07
- Retired Mod
- Posts: 14,180
- And1: 2
- Joined: Jul 25, 2003
- Location: PacersRule07
You guys are entitled to your opinions, but in my opinion, I'd take Reggie in his prime vs. Ray Allen in his prime any day. Both are tremendous shooters, but Reggie lived for the postseason and rarely missed the big shot. Allen has had his moments, but to my knowledge, Reggie never had the type of miserable playoff series that Ray Allen has had this year until he was probably 37.
Reggie was the leader of his team, and I'd like to think he'd at least have one championship had it not been for the 90's Bulls or the early 2000's Lakers. He led a team to the finals where his second two best players were probably Jalen Rose and Rik Smits.
Ray Allen has never led a team to the Finals. Right now, he's the third wheel of a trio (Pierce and KG) that is likely to win it though. There is no doubt he has a better supporting cast.
Ray Allen is the better defender, but I'd take Reggie's shooting and overall killer instinct any day. Plus, Ray's stats have been inflated because he's put up a lot of scoring on a lot of bad teams.
Reggie was the leader of his team, and I'd like to think he'd at least have one championship had it not been for the 90's Bulls or the early 2000's Lakers. He led a team to the finals where his second two best players were probably Jalen Rose and Rik Smits.
Ray Allen has never led a team to the Finals. Right now, he's the third wheel of a trio (Pierce and KG) that is likely to win it though. There is no doubt he has a better supporting cast.
Ray Allen is the better defender, but I'd take Reggie's shooting and overall killer instinct any day. Plus, Ray's stats have been inflated because he's put up a lot of scoring on a lot of bad teams.
-
xxSnEaKyPxx
- RealGM
- Posts: 18,432
- And1: 19,060
- Joined: Jun 02, 2007
Before I make my post let me start off by saying I am a huge Ray Allen fan. He is currently one of my favorite players in the NBA and the main reason I am going for the Celtics this year - well that and Laker fans on this board annoy me. But the point is I love Ray Allen, always have - the Sonics were one of my favorite teams in the NBA because of him.
That being said, comparing Reggie and Ray is like comparing Jordan and Bryant. Bryant - a great player has put up similar numbers to Jordan throughout his career, not as good, but very close considering everything. But I can't think of one person outside of LA that would rather have Bryant in his prime than Jordan. I think the same applies to Reggie, what Reggie did was incredible. He was the leader of a Pacers team who didn't have the best players in the NBA and led then to the Finals. They had a great supporting cast - but thats the key phraze - "supporting cast". Reggie was the leader of that team. Reggie had a certain killer instinct to him that doesn't exist in most athletes. He took on MJ and led the Pacers to a game 7 against one of the greatest dynasties in NBA history. On top of all that, he had a had a lot of loyalty to his team. Now, not Ray Allens fault, but he got traded a few times. No team in their right mind would trade a guy like Reggie Miller, I think that says something about him. On top of that, he had the chance to sign with the Lakers and win a Championship and he said "I just don't see myself being one of those guys who abandons his team for a Ring."
I remember watching the Beyond the Glory of Reggie Miller, and they showed a clip against the Knicks, this was my favorite moment I have seen in sports. They were showing it in slow motion as it was a buzzer beater for the game, and as the swung the ball around the 3 point line, you see all the Knicks fans in the background getting ready to celebrate because they thought the Pacers would miss the shot, as the ball was in the air you see all the Knicks fans with smiles on their faces, then they realized the ball was going to Reggie Miller. Before he even shot the ball, you see all the Knicks fans faces go pale and even a few people mouthing cuss words because they knew he would make it. They went from happy to extreme panic before he even shot the ball, that shows what type of player he was.
Ray Allen is a great player, but Reggie Miller is one of the greatest players. Reggie's very last game at Madison Square Garden the Knicks fans were chanting "Reg-gie Reg-gie", that shows what type of player he was - yes, I have used that phrase a few times - which also shows what type of player he was. :-p
I'm not saying Reggie is leagues above Allen, because that isn't true. But Reggie is clearly the superior player in my mind. He is a Legend, Ray Allen is not. Just my opinion though.
That being said, comparing Reggie and Ray is like comparing Jordan and Bryant. Bryant - a great player has put up similar numbers to Jordan throughout his career, not as good, but very close considering everything. But I can't think of one person outside of LA that would rather have Bryant in his prime than Jordan. I think the same applies to Reggie, what Reggie did was incredible. He was the leader of a Pacers team who didn't have the best players in the NBA and led then to the Finals. They had a great supporting cast - but thats the key phraze - "supporting cast". Reggie was the leader of that team. Reggie had a certain killer instinct to him that doesn't exist in most athletes. He took on MJ and led the Pacers to a game 7 against one of the greatest dynasties in NBA history. On top of all that, he had a had a lot of loyalty to his team. Now, not Ray Allens fault, but he got traded a few times. No team in their right mind would trade a guy like Reggie Miller, I think that says something about him. On top of that, he had the chance to sign with the Lakers and win a Championship and he said "I just don't see myself being one of those guys who abandons his team for a Ring."
I remember watching the Beyond the Glory of Reggie Miller, and they showed a clip against the Knicks, this was my favorite moment I have seen in sports. They were showing it in slow motion as it was a buzzer beater for the game, and as the swung the ball around the 3 point line, you see all the Knicks fans in the background getting ready to celebrate because they thought the Pacers would miss the shot, as the ball was in the air you see all the Knicks fans with smiles on their faces, then they realized the ball was going to Reggie Miller. Before he even shot the ball, you see all the Knicks fans faces go pale and even a few people mouthing cuss words because they knew he would make it. They went from happy to extreme panic before he even shot the ball, that shows what type of player he was.
Ray Allen is a great player, but Reggie Miller is one of the greatest players. Reggie's very last game at Madison Square Garden the Knicks fans were chanting "Reg-gie Reg-gie", that shows what type of player he was - yes, I have used that phrase a few times - which also shows what type of player he was. :-p
I'm not saying Reggie is leagues above Allen, because that isn't true. But Reggie is clearly the superior player in my mind. He is a Legend, Ray Allen is not. Just my opinion though.
-
RayAllen#34
- Sophomore
- Posts: 100
- And1: 0
- Joined: Apr 20, 2008
Bucky O'Hare wrote:Ray Allen vs Mitch Richmond is a more valid comparison.
Yes, both may have technically had better stats than Reggie, but it was Reggie's leadership and big game play that easily rises him above the other two career losers. Ray Allen is also a 44.6% career shooter, rather lousy for a guy who's biggest attribute is his scoring.
By the way, did you know that if your translate the name Ray Allen into Iroquois it means "Big Stats, Little Wins"? I've always found that interesting.
Ray shoots 45 because almost half of his shots are from 3 point range. On 2 pointers ray shoots a pretty good 48%, and that includes all the long 2 point jumpers he makes with consistency. Ray > Reggie
-
RayAllen#34
- Sophomore
- Posts: 100
- And1: 0
- Joined: Apr 20, 2008
PacersRule07 wrote:You guys are entitled to your opinions, but in my opinion, I'd take Reggie in his prime vs. Ray Allen in his prime any day. Both are tremendous shooters, but Reggie lived for the postseason and rarely missed the big shot. Allen has had his moments, but to my knowledge, Reggie never had the type of miserable playoff series that Ray Allen has had this year until he was probably 37.
Reggie was the leader of his team, and I'd like to think he'd at least have one championship had it not been for the 90's Bulls or the early 2000's Lakers. He led a team to the finals where his second two best players were probably Jalen Rose and Rik Smits.
Ray Allen has never led a team to the Finals. Right now, he's the third wheel of a trio (Pierce and KG) that is likely to win it though. There is no doubt he has a better supporting cast.
Ray Allen is the better defender, but I'd take Reggie's shooting and overall killer instinct any day. Plus, Ray's stats have been inflated because he's put up a lot of scoring on a lot of bad teams.
Check Ray allen's playoff stats, he does better in the playoffs in EVERY category than he does in the regular season. Also, despite his poor play against the cavaliers, he did well against detroit and is KILLING LA in the FINALS where it matters the most.
-
brewcrew08
- Ballboy
- Posts: 29
- And1: 0
- Joined: Feb 22, 2008
i respect the arguments if u r for reggie miller but i dont see how ray allen (maybe at the end of his career put into the top 50 players of all time) can be classified with mitch richmond (who most nba fans have never head of) and how dale ellis is like reggie miller. maybe its cuz ive never paid too much attention to either of those guys but if u go up to a casual nba fan today or in the future they will know ray allen and reggie millers name and be stumped by ellis's and richmond's
i still think ray has an edge over reggie but to some people, he may still have to prove it
i still think ray has an edge over reggie but to some people, he may still have to prove it
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x58/ ... /RayGW.jpg
The greatest shooter to ever play the game. He got game.
The greatest shooter to ever play the game. He got game.
-
GuyClinch
- RealGM
- Posts: 13,345
- And1: 1,478
- Joined: Jul 19, 2004
Hmm. I never liked Reggie Miller - one of the most one dimensional legends ever. How people can put him in with Ray Allen is beyond me. Reggie Lewis was better then Reggie Miller - never mind Ray Allen.
All Reggie Miller could really do is hit the three. He was a sub-par defender, passer, and rebounder.
Ray Allen OTOH is a complete baller who could score in a mulitude of ways and score when targeted as the main man. He doesn't need a ton of screens - he can beat people one on one. But he can still move without the ball and come off screens. If that wasn't enough he is more athletic, a better ball hander, and a better defender.
Truth is guys who score 26 PPG are FAR better players then guys who don't even average 20. In the NBA teams will focus on scorers and try to shut them down. Whereas a shooter will get some free looks off the excellence of the rest of his team.
The fact that Reggie Miller hit so many 'clutch" shots is just a testament to his team not his actual play. He had more talented players around him then RA and thus was put in better positions. Ray Allen is just as clutch and if placed in similiar situations would have done even better.
It's a bit like the thinking that makes Derek Jeter the greatest ever. <g> no he got to play on some excellent (steroid enhanced) teams..
Pete
All Reggie Miller could really do is hit the three. He was a sub-par defender, passer, and rebounder.
Ray Allen OTOH is a complete baller who could score in a mulitude of ways and score when targeted as the main man. He doesn't need a ton of screens - he can beat people one on one. But he can still move without the ball and come off screens. If that wasn't enough he is more athletic, a better ball hander, and a better defender.
Truth is guys who score 26 PPG are FAR better players then guys who don't even average 20. In the NBA teams will focus on scorers and try to shut them down. Whereas a shooter will get some free looks off the excellence of the rest of his team.
The fact that Reggie Miller hit so many 'clutch" shots is just a testament to his team not his actual play. He had more talented players around him then RA and thus was put in better positions. Ray Allen is just as clutch and if placed in similiar situations would have done even better.
It's a bit like the thinking that makes Derek Jeter the greatest ever. <g> no he got to play on some excellent (steroid enhanced) teams..
Pete
Re: Does a championship solidfy HOF careers for The Big Thre
-
SLCceltic
- Analyst
- Posts: 3,130
- And1: 1,864
- Joined: Mar 05, 2005
- Location: Cabo San Lucas, México
-
Re: Does a championship solidfy HOF careers for The Big Thre
brewcrew08 wrote:Garnett is in for sure, Pierce and Allen seem likely. Would a championship get all three in the hall of fame. Pierce and Allen have been underrated all through out there career, but i think all three could end up being in the top 100 players in the NBA of all time (I know this list is not real) or maybe the top 50?
Fo Show
definately
w/o any doubt
ROYALGREEN