OT: Doc Rivers

Tmac970 · Post #1 » by **Tmac970** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:22 pm

I was gonna post this in the general forum, but I figured that posters in our forum would get was I was saying more. A friend and I were arguing over the whole "Doc Rivers is a great coach" thing. Now that he has a ring, lots of people are saying that he is the reason. Now, do not get me wrong. I am really happy for him and I have always wished him nothing but the best. Congrats to him, but I just do not think that he is that good of a coach. I honestly believe that KG was the "voice" behind Doc. Doc is a great motivator. He did it well in his first couple of seasons with the Magic and he is doing that well with Boston as you can see. Even commentators have said that in the past, now those same commentators are saying how great he is. I just think it is a little early to start the talk of him being a great coach because he has a ring. KG was the coach of that team because his hunger was immense and he wasn't taking anything less than a championship. Do I think that they would have won the championship with any other coach? Yes, I do. Look at their roster, it's sick! I have even seen posts where people have said that anyone with that roster could win a chip. Anyways, congrats to the Boston Celtics. Ray was drillin those threes like crazy, Pierce was dishing the rock, Rondo proved me wrong, and KG's emotions and hustle gave me chills. They deserved it and they made the Finals fun to watch. Hopefully, the Magic will be in their place one day. Thoughts?

BTW, please don't bash me. It's just my opinion and you know what they say about those.

Post #2 » by **damo[23]** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:59 pm

I personally didnt rate him and feel probably most coaching staff in the league could have achieved most of what he got - certainly in the reg season anyway.

Fair play to the guy - he did coach his way to the finals and win it; but I am sure a better coach - of which there are numerous in the league - could have done things like coached their way to dispatching the Hawks in less than 7 etc...

KingRobb02 · Post #3 » by **KingRobb02** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:31 pm

This is a part of what I don't like about the culture that surrounds the NBA. Winning means too much when evaluating the greatness of players and coaches. Is Doc leaps and bounds better than he was last year? Probably, but not by much. His biggest problems have been solved for him. He always had an issue with settling on a 9 man rotation, so when the team traded away half of last year's team to get Allen and Garnett that problem was solved. He was always too hard on young point guards, so when the team left him with only Rondo, House, and Pruitt, he had no choice but to let Rondo make mistakes. He was never a big defensive scheme coach, so the team gave him the best defensive assistant in the league. Doc merely did what he was supposed to do. This is a league where talent wins. Let's not give any of the coaches too much credit. As we learned the past two weeks, Phil Jackson and his 9 titles are severely overrated.

Post #4 » by **craig01** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:16 pm

Doc Rivers is proof that better talent wins most of the time.

Give Doc credit though, as he did not screw anything up in the Finals.

Congrats Doc, but I still think your run in Orlando was less than stellar.

Gerhalt11 · Post #5 » by **Gerhalt11** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:10 pm

I'll say it.

Doc Rivers is the worst X's and O's coach to win a title in NBA history.

magicfan4life05 · Post #6 » by **magicfan4life05** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:41 pm

He wasn't as bad as people made him out to be and he's not as great as people say he is today.

He's somewhere in the middle.

With the players on that team, any coach would look great.

maginno · Post #7 » by **maginno** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:51 pm

I knew Doc would get no love here and that the accolades he is now getting would be minimized. Facts are he got the Celtics with three super stars playing team defense and he clearly motivated the team properly. One ring doesn't make you a great coach but he's a good coach. You do not win a ring and even with us a coach of the year award without doing some things very well. Time to stop the hatin. Congrats Doc.

Tmac970 · Post #8 » by **Tmac970** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:29 am

maginno wrote:I knew Doc would get no love here and that the accolades he is now getting would be minimized. Facts are he got the Celtics with three super stars playing team defense and he clearly motivated the team properly. One ring doesn't make you a great coach but he's a good coach. You do not win a ring and even with us a coach of the year award without doing some things very well. Time to stop the hatin. Congrats Doc.

Not hatin on the man. I am just commenting on the comments made by the media and others that he is a great coach when he is not. I congratulated him and his team in my post. I just think that any coach could have gotten the same results, that's all. But you said it in your post yourself that he "motivated" them properly, which he did. I am basically saying the same thing by saying that he is not a good X and O coach, just a good motivator. That team was so hungry, that Stuff could have coach them and gotten the same results. Happy for the Celtics and the organization, but just stating the obvious. No disrespect.

thefranchise2k5 · Post #9 » by **thefranchise2k5** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:43 am

maginno wrote:wrote:I knew Doc would get no love here and that the accolades he is now getting would be minimized. Facts are he got the Celtics with three super stars playing team defense and he clearly motivated the team properly. One ring doesn't make you a great coach but he's a good coach. You do not win a ring and even with us a coach of the year award without doing some things very well. Time to stop the hatin. Congrats Doc.

One name... Tom Thibodeau. He's responsible for the defense this team played. But I think Doc was the perfect coach for this kind of team. He didn't need to do a lot of coaching x's and o's. More important was getting the big three to mesh together and to install a winning attitude. Is he as good a coach as Phil Jackson? No way! But he did out coach him in the finals.

Big Aaron · Post #10 » by **Big Aaron** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:08 am

thefranchise2k5 wrote:
maginno wrote:wrote:I knew Doc would get no love here and that the accolades he is now getting would be minimized. Facts are he got the Celtics with three super stars playing team defense and he clearly motivated the team properly. One ring doesn't make you a great coach but he's a good coach. You do not win a ring and even with us a coach of the year award without doing some things very well. Time to stop the hatin. Congrats Doc.

One name... Tom Thibodeau. He's responsible for the defense this team played.

Bingo.

Optimus_Steel · Post #11 » by **Optimus_Steel** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:43 am

This was a perfect storm for Doc. His best 3 players were 3 great vets that were desperate to win. A coaching staff around him that masked his inefficiencies such as defense, rotations, and game planning. As a result he could concentrate on what he does best which is motivate his players, offense, and be cute for the media. Is he a great coach? Of course not, not even close. The bias that the media has for him would let you believe he is but we know he makes them feel warm and snuggly inside. But he has improved, and he didnt really mess up in the finals. However he directly had a hand in almost blowing the Atl and Cle series. When Mike Woodson outcoaches you, you got issues.

Post #12 » by **craig01** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:55 am

thefranchise2k5 wrote:
maginno wrote:wrote:I knew Doc would get no love here and that the accolades he is now getting would be minimized. Facts are he got the Celtics with three super stars playing team defense and he clearly motivated the team properly. One ring doesn't make you a great coach but he's a good coach. You do not win a ring and even with us a coach of the year award without doing some things very well. Time to stop the hatin. Congrats Doc.

One name... Tom Thibodeau. He's responsible for the defense this team played. But I think Doc was the perfect coach for this kind of team. He didn't need to do a lot of coaching x's and o's. More important was getting the big three to mesh together and to install a winning attitude. Is he as good a coach as Phil Jackson? No way! But he did out coach him in the finals.

I agree, TT did not get much love from the media, and he absolutely deserved it.

Post #13 » by **Bensational** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:18 pm

Doc Rivers is one of the coaches i feel is least deserving of winning an NBA title. As many have already pointed out he had his job done for him by other people: Ainge landed him the talent. TT had the team playing great D. and i think a lot of the on court offense was controlled by Garnett, Allen and sometimes Pierce knowing when and how to get an offense going, plus being committed enough to perform on both ends of the court. i don't imagine Doc put the plays together for them as much as they just worked well off each other.

Doc hasn't done this well in any other year that he's coached, so please, for the love of sanity, do not try and credit his performance this year to the same skillset that lead him to mediocrity every other season.

That said, I do congratulate him for keeping that team together all season and leading them through 3 challenging series in the playoffs. I was hoping the C's would take the title if the Magic didn't.

maginno · Post #14 » by **maginno** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:08 pm

well , I think alot of the so called greats have been helped by great players. Your comments that any coach could have won a championship with this team is definitely hatin no matter what you say. I can think of one that would have muffed it up and he used to coach for us year before last.

I'm not going to deny that Riley and Jackson are good coaches but lets face it they also rode alot off the coat tails of their players. Jackson has gotten all his rings as far as I can remember by having the best player in the league on his teams and I can't give credit to Riley for showtime in LA with Magic - that can't be coached.

No doc isn't in the same league not even close but saying that any coach could have won with that team is just sour grapes. you couldn't help watching the sideline during the closing minutes of the series closeout without realizing he had his team all on the same page and they were completely with him.

Tmac970 · Post #15 » by **Tmac970** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:27 pm

I aint hatin on Doc. So anytime someone has an opinion that does not agree with yours, they are hatin? There must be someone in the league that everyone thinks is all that, but you don't. Does that make you a hater? No, it makes you entitled to your opinion. I think Doc is a great guy, but even when he was with us I did not think that he was a good coach. No sour grapes here. I am glad that KG got his ring and that the championship is in the east. I am just not a fan of Doc Rivers' coaching. If that makes me a hater, then so be it. Like I said before, you're entitled to your opinion.

maginno · Post #16 » by **maginno** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:33 pm

Calm down Tmac. I certainly am not about to get into a big argument over anything to do with Boston. saying anyone could have won a championship with the personnel is just another way of saying you give no credit at all to Doc. that by defintion is hatin. Thats all. I stand by it. BHill would have found a way to have the wrong players on the floor or call the wrong plays.

flyingvee · Post #17 » by **flyingvee** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:58 pm

My main beef with Docs time here was his stubborness. The way he handled the whole Patrick Ewing thing was really bull-headed. Of course we know Patrick was not the same 20/10 guy when he got here, but at Seattle he did show he was capable of being a 10/10 guy. Or at the very least he could have played a role similar to what Alonzo had the last few years with Miami. Instead Doc chose to start Horace Grant at center and even De Clerq over Patrick. Remember all the pre-season posters that year, a line-up of Armstrong, McGrady, Hill, Grant, Ewing.

Back to the question of Doc being a greta coach now? I don't know. He had Pierce last year and the misfits and if they didn't tank the season then they were awful. By some miracle they land BOTH Ray Allen and Garnett. They add Cassell and PJ Brown. By the way, the fact that you have a ring does make you more a champion than someone who didn't win it, liek A Ewing or Barkley or Karl Malone. Especilly in PJ Browns case. You sit out more than half the year, then decided to join the team thats 20 games up.

Post #18 » by **Bensational** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:43 am

maginno wrote:well , I think alot of the so called greats have been helped by great players. Your comments that any coach could have won a championship with this team is definitely hatin no matter what you say. I can think of one that would have muffed it up and he used to coach for us year before last.

I'm not going to deny that Riley and Jackson are good coaches but lets face it they also rode alot off the coat tails of their players. Jackson has gotten all his rings as far as I can remember by having the best player in the league on his teams and I can't give credit to Riley for showtime in LA with Magic - that can't be coached.

No doc isn't in the same league not even close but saying that any coach could have won with that team is just sour grapes. you couldn't help watching the sideline during the closing minutes of the series closeout without realizing he had his team all on the same page and they were completely with him.

agreed. Doc kept that team together and working together, regardless of how much of the overall design was his, and that earned him a ring. but beyond that i don't feel he deserves an credit.

and i feel Jackson has already shown he's nothing without an MVP calibre player plus another HOF'er as their sidekick. but if you give him the talent, he can get the job done.

B.Hill. yuck. just yuck. god only knows what he could do to any team that jam packed with talent.

magictreat · Post #19 » by **magictreat** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:59 am

craig01 wrote:Doc Rivers is proof that better talent wins most of the time.

Give Doc credit though, as he did not screw anything up in the Finals.

Congrats Doc, but I still think your run in Orlando was less than stellar.

Here in Orlando, Doc was in the job trainning, and we Magic fans, paid the price for that, but also, we need to acknowledge, that the teams Doc had here, they really sucked, Ameche as your starting center?? lmfao, we were really bad, weren't we???????

lovehoops01 · Post #20 » by **lovehoops01** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:42 am

First of all.....Flying Vee....what the heck are you talking about? Grant Hill never was the center here. First under Doc, it was Ben. Then Horace and Patrick. Then Amaechi. Then DeClercq.

Now that that is out of the way......

I always thought Doc was a good coach, but not great. Even if you say he might not be the best Xs and Os guy in the world, more than half the job is getting the best players in the world to play hard and play their best consistently -- motivation. And Doc is great at that. The little thing he does to put carrots out there to get guys to do what they need to do.

Did you hear the thing he did at their practice facility? They have championship banners hanging there. He had them clear space on the wall for another. And he had them keep a light shining on that spot to remind the players that is where their new banner for this season should go. He probably did hundreds of little things like that during the season. And when he was here, he knew Mike Miller was a big Larry Bird fan. So to reward him for a particularly good stretch, he got Larry Bird to autograph a basketball and put it in Mike's locker with a motivational note.

And most of all, they really want to play for him. Did you hear Paul Pierce talk about wanting to run through for a wall for him? KG, Pierce and Ray Allen don't need Doc to tell them what to do every minute they are on the floor. They want to be given the independence to play freely. Plus, he doesn't embarrass them publicly. He waits until the right time to talk to them about what they are doing wrong.

I think Doc did a good job of keeping the players focused, too. In the end, Doc always has said -- even when he was here -- that it is a player's league, that you need good players to win. People wanted to say that Phil Jackson wasn't that great a coach either -- but that he had Michael. Well, he had Shaq and Kobe, too. Truth is, there are coaches who players trust and like more than others. Jackson was one of them. Shaq only will play for those kinds of guys -- Phil, Riley, he always wanted to play for Chuck Daly. KG, Pierce and Allen responded to Doc. He gave them that same warm, fuzzy feeling that you say he has with the media.

As for Thibodeau, I heard him getting a lot of credit during the playoffs -- especially from Jeff Van Gundy. He did play a big role in helping the team win, but Thibodeau wasn't able to help the Rockets get out of the first round when he was working with Van Gundy in Houston so it can't be all him either.

It was the total package. And Ainge and Doc weren't the only guys who put it together. KG and Pierce played a big role in getting P.J. and Cassell to sign on, too.

The Celtics won that championship as a unit. Everyone involved played a role. And Doc didn't screw it up.

Doc just didn't have enough good, experienced players when he was here and had to get some experience himself. And I think he learned from his time here. I don't look at that as a negative, and I actually am sad that he gets as much criticism here as he does. The only thing I really fault him for was not working better on building the roster with Gabe, but frankly, Gabe made more than his share of mistakes, too, and I think Doc hoped he could help him get it right. Instead, they spent so much time compromising with one another that I don't think either got what they wanted and it probably hurt the team. I give at least equal blame to Gabe, though. I thought Gabe should have been fired first personally because he had been making mistakes longer -- but I think they cut him a lot of slack for all the work he did to clear the roster space to get Tracy and Grant here.

Frankly, I enjoyed it when Doc was here. His upbeat personality and ability to motivate the players, I think, helped T-Mac and his teams perform better than they might have otherwise. And honestly, listening to him talk made ME feel better about the team than any other Magic coach has made me feel about the team by just talking. He made one huge mistake, though, pushing to let Darrell go so
T-Mac could be the team leader. Darrell has forgiven him, though, so I think we should, too. I'm glad Doc is still a part of our community. He's a good guy, and I just like him. I miss him not being in the public here more.

SVG has gotten this team to improve more, but sometimes I'm afraid he's going to push them over the side of a cliff -- he gets so hyped up. He is fortunate that he has players who won't get mad at him for it and tune him out. (And for that, you can at least partially credit Otis.) Let's hope it stays that way.

Whew! Sorry....I've been holding that in for a while.