New York trade and pick swap

[granger05]

I was just checking out the latest Chad Ford mock draft on ESPN. Now they have Westbrook going to the Knicks at #6 (then we take Augustin at #11) and he freely admits that this will probably change again next week. I think the Knicks have had a different pick in each mock draft. However, this got me thinking about Gallinari. The scouting says he has great bball IQ, but there are reports that D'Antoni doesn't like his game which is odd if a good feel for basketball is his selling point. I think it's all a bluff so the Knicks can trade down and still get the guy they would take at 6 anyway. I'm sure they like Bayless and Mayo better, but those guys look to be gone and I don't know that the Knicks have pieces to move up. However, if you buy my theory that they would take Gallinari at 6 anyway, then why not try to move down and still get him. That leads to this trade which I'm sure has been kicked around previously:

Knicks give/Pacers get:
Stephon Marbury
Malik Rose
#6

Knicks get/Pacers give:
Jermaine O'Neal
Jamal Tinsley
#11

Trade ID #4657844

Why for New York:
As I said, if you're going to take Gallinari anyway, why not try to get something else as well. In that case the pick swap is meaningless. The only team picking between us and NY that has a potential need for Gallinari would be the Nets so that would be the possible snag, however, other mock drafts have had the Knicks taking Augustin and he would be the likely booby prize if Gallinari was off the board. The Knicks get JO and Tinsley and give them a change of scenery. Marbury is addition by subtraction for them anyway. They do take on more salary since Marbury and Rose are both expiring contracts. However, they're bad, not terrible, contracts so that's probably OK for NY. Tinsley will be in the final year of his deal during the LeBron sweepstakes in 2010. Actually, the Knicks have several deals that would be expiring contracts for sign-and-trade purposes in 2010 and now Tinsley could get added to the list. Contracts that are up in 2010 like JO free up cap space for a LeBron run (if they aren't resigned first), but tradeable expirings would be better I think to get CLE on board for a S&T. On a tangent, if you're a team like NY that doesn't care so much about the cap and just keep bad contracts around then you always have a big expiring contract available and therefore you always have a shot at a player that's on the block. This seems like a CBA hole to me.

Why for Indy:
Depending on how you feel about Marbury, you could argue that we give up the two best players in the deal since Tinsley has helped pilot a team deep into the playoffs when he can stay on the court which Marbury has not been able to do. However, this would certainly excite the fans. Marbury has been a malcontent, but he does play (this year aside) and we'll only have to put up with him for one year. We clean up our salary mess and we also have a shot at Eric Gordon which would get people fired up. The front court gets a little thin with JO going out, but given his health history that's been the case most years anyway. Given Bird and Walsh's relationship you would think they could pull something like this off. The players that the Knicks have been linked to look to be there at 11 as well as 6 where as we could really use a hometown player to ingratiate ourselves back to the community

[Scoot McGroot]

I could live with a deal like this if someone we really wanted was available at the #6, or especially if someone like Jerryd Bayless fell a pick or two, maybe even a Brook Lopez or a Kevin Love. I don't see Mayo, Rose, or Beasley falling this far at all.


I don't see us making this type of deal if Gordon is the guy on the board, unless we have something lined up to move Dunleavy out of town in the same deal. Gordon's gonna need minutes from the beginning, something he's not going to get with Dunleavy in town.

[granger05]

I assume that Rose, Beasley, Mayo, and Bayless are all off the board. Otherwise, I think the Knicks would just take one of those guys themselves. I think Gordon is the guy that puts butts in the seats as opposed to Love or Lopez. Gordon could split minutes at the guard spots with the understanding that when he's in there the offense is running through Dunleavy and Granger anyway and he doesn't have to be a distributer. Long term I would think that Dunleavy is the kind of guy that could be ideal coming off the bench.

[Scoot McGroot]

After thinking about it, it would make sense to do it if Gordon is still available (likely). I'd love to somehow be able to add both Gordon and Westbrook to this roster though. They'd be a great combination at guard long-term, with Gordon able to guard the smaller guard and Westbrook guarding the bigger guard. Granger next to them would be pretty solid as well.



New challenge: Find me a way to add both Eric Gordon and Russell Westbrook to this roster!!!


Maybe if we cut Tinsley and Malik Rose out of the Knicks deal and include a protected future 1st rounder could we keep the 11th pick this year and hope and pray that Westbrook falls that far?

[granger05]

I agree with you totally. I'd love to have both those guys as well. I think it's possible that Westbrook is there at #11, but I don't know how we land both of them. If we take our pick out of the deal then I think that NY fans could rightfully complain that they're taking on too much risk with O'Neal getting healthy. Also, I have a bad taste from trading a pick last year and I don't think we should do that again unless we're the ones getting back a star which isn't the case here.

[Scoot McGroot]

Maybe a JO, Daniels, and 2009 lotto protected first for Marbury, Jerome James, and the #6? I'd then see if they'd swap Jared Jeffries for Jamaal Tinsley, something widely viewed as extremely even. Same amount of money owed (relatively) and same number of years on the books.

I might even be willing to go so far as to add a Jeff Foster for Malik Rose swap if we could protect the future 1st moreso than just the lottery (maybe top 20 or so).



There are other options here to try and provide incentives for the Knicks. Maybe we could send the #6 to NJ for the #10, #21, and #40 that they own. Let NY keep the #21, and we'll take the #10 and #40. That way, we have a few pieces to try and trade back up in the draft a bit, while NY doesn't trade out of the 1st round completely in this deal. We could then see if possibly Memphis would be interested in trading down from the #5 to the #10 spot (that is, if they miss out and can't trade up to the #2). Kevin Love would probably likely still be available at #10, and we could try and include some other pieces to motivate them (some or all of Shawne Williams, Ike Diogu, the #40 and #41, or a swap of an expiring contract for Cardinal). At this point, we would likely end up with a very thin lineup, but one that runs something like:

Marbury/Westbrook/Diener
Dunleavy/Gordon
Granger/Jeffries
Murphy/Rose
James/(#40 and #41 pick- Jawai, Ajinca, Plaisted, etc type picks)


We'd probably end up having to step everybody up a position and end up with Murphy at C and Granger at PF occasionally, or we'd have to fill out the roster with veteran type centers with the LLE or minimum salaries.






Don't worry guys. I'm just dreaming. That's really all this is.

[joew8302]

Man, if we could do this I would absolutely love it. I have wanted to rid ourselves of O'Neal and Tinsley for years now. We would get Rose's bad contract and Marbury's, but we would only have to live with them for a year as opposed to waiting out Jamal and Jermaines. The chance to move up to 6 would give us the possibility of drafting Love, Gordon or Westbrook as well. I really doubt this deal goes through however, Donnie has probably seen enough of Tinsley and O'Neal.

[fdefore]

Okay Scoot, what about this:


TRADE ID# 4658110

KNICKS OUT: Crawford, Richardson, Rose, James, #6
KNICKS IN: O'Neal, Diogu, Mobley

CLIPPERS OUT: Mobley, Thomas, Knight, #7
CLIPPERS IN: Dunleavy, Crawford

PACERS OUT: O'Neal, Dunleavy, Diogu
PACERS IN: Richardson, Rose, James, Knight, Thomas, #6, #7


TINSLEY / KNIGHT / DIENER
RICHARDSON / DANIELS / GRAHAM
GRANGER / WILLIAMS / __________
MURPHY / THOMAS / ROSE
FOSTER / JAMES / __________

#6 - GORDON
#7 - WESTBROOK
#11 - SPEIGHTS

[APerna]

I love that deal fdefore, but it's far from realistic. We'd never get #6 AND #7 without losing #11.

[Bucky O'Hare]

I'd do the original deal. Moving up to #6 could land us Mayo or Bayless, and it not, at least Kevin Love, who in my opinion is a significantly better prospect than last year's #3 pick, Al Horford. Then we also shed a ton of salary including Tinsley?

Sign me up.

[mr_merriweather]

no way the knicks do that. marbury and rose are two of their shorter contracts--they're not going to get rid of that #6 pick without dumping randolph or jeffries contract on somebody. the goal is to get the salary cap down in time to sign lebron or wade.

and as someone who lives in new york, i'm pretty sure their fanbase would riot if, for the billionth year in a row, the team posted a terrible record worthy of a high lottery pick and then traded it away. i can sympathize--if the team is going to suck that bad, you at least want that pick to convince yourself that your whole fandom isn't a pointless exercise in misery.

i don't think that #6 pick would do the pacers a whole lot of good anyway, except for maybe ensuring that they get their preferred choice between westbrook and augustin. and it would just tempt bird to pick gordon, which might be the wrong move considering our PG needs.

[fdefore]

I love that deal fdefore, but it's far from realistic. We'd never get #6 AND #7 without losing #11.

Well I thought we were playing outside the realm of reality...?

I should have given the Knicks the #11 -- the deal does turn useless parts into to needed players (Rose, Richardson, James and Crawford become Mobley and JO) but really they don't end up saving like I initially thought they would (they save $10mil the 10-11 season [their goal] but they add enough the other two seasons to make that moot]). Ultimately to get the Knicks to bite we'd have to find a home for Randolph or Curry along with adding the 11. I don't see room for those two in LAC or Indiana.

That being said, this was just a way to get both Westbrook and Gordon - which is ridiculous to begin with.

[n_s_s31]

What about Jermaine O'neal to Cleavlend for #19, eric snow(exp), Zydrunas, and Joe Smith(exp)
This one is iffy but it depends on how desperate Cleveland is

Then trade Tinsley, #19, and maybe next years protected 1st to New York for Jared Jeffries, #6
I thought about including Indy's Second rounder here
So after this Indy would have pick 6 and pick 11

To ensure that they could get both gordan and westbrook which is what someone else mentioned they wanted. They could then try and trade the 11 to get into the top 10

So maybe Shawn WIlliams, Daniels, #11 to the bucks for #8 and Charlie Bell, Gadzuric

Pacers Lineup Next year
Westbrook- Snow- Diener
Dunleavey- Gordon
Granger- Jeffries
Foster- Smith- Murphy
Big Z- Murphy -Gadzuric

Pacers (near) future lineup
Westbrook- Diener
Gordan- Future Draft or Fa
Granger- DUnleavy
Foster- Murphy
Big Z- Future draft or FA

New Yorks Next year lineup if they dont make more trades
Tinsley- Marbury- Robinson
Crawford
Richardson- Balkman
Randolph-David Lee(maybe starter)
Curry

Cleavland
West- Gibson
Pavlovic- Wally
James - no backup cuz hes never on the bench lol
O'Niel- Varejao
Wallace- Dwayne Jones?

Bucks
Mo Williams--Daniels
Redd- Bobby Simmons-Daniels
Mason-Shawn WIliams-SImmons
Yi- Charlie V
Bogut- #11(Deandre Jordan?)

I realize that a couple the trades may need tweaking and feel free to try, but i think this is a pretty good outline of how to get both westbrook and gordan.

[Scoot McGroot]

My desire to get both Gordon and Westbrook is merely a pipe dream I would love to see. I may posture and type a lot of things, but in this forum, I sometimes let fantasy come across as "my reality". Don't worry about finding a way to get both Gordon and Westbrook. There's only one way to even consider it. Somehow move up to get Gordon and then hope Westbrook somehow falls on draft night to a mid 1st rounder where we might convince someone to give up a pick to get him for a future 1st or Ike Digou, Shawne Williams, picks, etc.

[fdefore]

no way the knicks do that. marbury and rose are two of their shorter contracts--they're not going to get rid of that #6 pick without dumping randolph or jeffries contract on somebody. the goal is to get the salary cap down in time to sign lebron or wade.

and as someone who lives in new york, i'm pretty sure their fanbase would riot if, for the billionth year in a row, the team posted a terrible record worthy of a high lottery pick and then traded it away. i can sympathize--if the team is going to suck that bad, you at least want that pick to convince yourself that your whole fandom isn't a pointless exercise in misery.

i don't think that #6 pick would do the pacers a whole lot of good anyway, except for maybe ensuring that they get their preferred choice between westbrook and augustin. and it would just tempt bird to pick gordon, which might be the wrong move considering our PG needs.

Okay, as I mentioned, the deal wasn't supposed to be based on reality. Just humoring Scoot mostly.

This one is a little more realistic, but not really plausible either:


KNICKS IN: Mobley, O'Neal, Diogu, #11
KNICKS OUT: Crawford, Jeffries, Rose, James, #6

Knicks get $17mil in extra cap room for 10-11, move down 5 spots in the lotto, get a former all-star big and a SG who would fit fairly well in D'Antoni's system and it would be at basically the same price as not making the trade. Essentially they're paying the exact same money to have $17mil extra in the 3rd year.

CLIPPERS IN: Crawford, Dunleavy, #41
CLIPPERS OUT: Mobley, Thomas, Knight, #7

Clippers get younger and more talented by adding Crawford and Dunleavy. They go into win-now mode and this deal allows them to sign and trade Maggette (who hates playing for Dunleavy Sr.) for a PG like TJ Ford. These trades give LAC a starting lineup of Ford / Crawford / Dunleavy / Brand / Kaman with Thornton and a re-signed Quinton Ross coming off the bench. Good offense, not so good defense.

PACERS IN: #6, Jeffries, Rose, James, #7, Thomas, Knight
PACERS OUT: O'Neal, Dunleavy, Diogu, #11, #41

Get two lotto picks and get enough exp. contracts to re-sign Granger during the summer. They officially go into a rebuild project by trading JO and Dunleavy and start with a young core of Granger, Williams, Gordon and Westbrook. They still have to get rid of Tinsley and Murphy though.



As I said, none of this is really realistic. First round picks are way too valuable right now and there are way too many gun-shy GMs in the league to do something this massive. But as Mr. Rogers taught us, it is tons of fun to visit the land of make-believe every now and then.

[Mecca]

Maybe a JO, Daniels, and 2009 lotto protected first for Marbury, Jerome James, and the #6? I'd then see if they'd swap Jared Jeffries for Jamaal Tinsley, something widely viewed as extremely even. Same amount of money owed (relatively) and same number of years on the books.

I might even be willing to go so far as to add a Jeff Foster for Malik Rose swap if we could protect the future 1st moreso than just the lottery (maybe top 20 or so).



There are other options here to try and provide incentives for the Knicks. Maybe we could send the #6 to NJ for the #10, #21, and #40 that they own. Let NY keep the #21, and we'll take the #10 and #40. That way, we have a few pieces to try and trade back up in the draft a bit, while NY doesn't trade out of the 1st round completely in this deal. We could then see if possibly Memphis would be interested in trading down from the #5 to the #10 spot (that is, if they miss out and can't trade up to the #2). Kevin Love would probably likely still be available at #10, and we could try and include some other pieces to motivate them (some or all of Shawne Williams, Ike Diogu, the #40 and #41, or a swap of an expiring contract for Cardinal). At this point, we would likely end up with a very thin lineup, but one that runs something like:

Marbury/Westbrook/Diener
Dunleavy/Gordon
Granger/Jeffries
Murphy/Rose
James/(#40 and #41 pick- Jawai, Ajinca, Plaisted, etc type picks)


We'd probably end up having to step everybody up a position and end up with Murphy at C and Granger at PF occasionally, or we'd have to fill out the roster with veteran type centers with the LLE or minimum salaries.






Don't worry guys. I'm just dreaming. That's really all this is.

NO, the knicks dont do this at all