Post your All-Time Top 20

[KNICKS1970]

Or Top 10 or 15 or 50 if you prefer.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Larry Bird
6. Magic Johnson
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Tim Duncan
9. Jerry West
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Julius Erving
13. Moses Malone
14. Kobe Bryant
15. John Havlicek
16. Walt Frazier
17. Karl Malone
18. Isiah Thomas
19. David Robinson
20. Kevin Garnett

[Alex_De_Large]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Larry Bird
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Bill Russell
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Oscar Robertson
10. Moses Malone
11. Jerry West
12. Tim Duncan
13. Julius Erving
14. John Stockton
15. Karl Malone
16. Charles Barkley
17. Isiah Thomas
18. John Havlicek
19. Patrick Ewing
20. Walt Frazier

[HarlemHeat37]

Stockton at 14? and ahead of Malone? interesting..

Ewing ahead of Robinson?..

[bluestang302]

I find putting players in order to be an almost impossible task. It's like ranking your favorite songs, movies, or albums... the more you think about it, the harder it gets. So, real quick:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Bill Russell
5. Larry Bird
6. Magic Johnson
7. Jerry West
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Tim Duncan
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Moses Malone
13. Julius Erving
14. George Mikan (toughest player to rank)
15. Bob Pettit
16. John Havlicek
17. Karl Malone
18. Kobe Bryant
19. Kevin Garnett
20. Charles Barkley
21. Elgin Baylor
22. Walt Frazier
23. David Robinson
24. Rick Barry
25. Isiah Thomas

[Alex_De_Large]

Stockton is my 3th best point guard of all time. But i did not think if one is worst or not, i made 20 in no specific order. I know i abused of 90's player, and there are not many 60's - 70's.

[tsherkin]

The Top-10

Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Bill Russell
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Shaquille O'neal
Hakeem Olajuwon

The order's a little bit up for debate; I routinely flop on Kareem and Wilt at the #1 and have legitimate arguments for both. I likewise flip with Big O and the Logo, I think they're mostly interchangeable.

Hakeem, I flip-flop with Duncan; at the rate Duncan is currently progressing, he will undoubtedly dislodge him; he's on pace to shatter the record for most All-Defensive Team selections in a career (I cannot believe he doesn't have multiple DPOYs yet, ridiculous...).

10 to 20

Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett
Bob Pettit
Moses Malone
John Havlicek
Kobe Bryant
Charles Barkley
Julius Erving
David Robinson

Duncan above Malone (4 titles, 3 Finals MVPs, 2 MVPs, ROY, All-Star MVP, defensive records, etc), for sure. He's a beast and borderline top-10; I occasionally stick him in there now, as I mentioned.

Malone above Garnett; I'm not going into it, there's an entire thread.

Pettit just beneath (beat Russell's Celtics, MVP, rebounding and scoring titles, he was great).

Havlicek just after (there's a thread...)

Kobe and Barkley to me would be on the same level if Kobe wasn't so much better defensively, so he's above Sir Charles (MVP, Finals appearance, loss... equal team success as The Man).

Moses Malone has that scoring burst, 6 or 7 rebounding titles, he's the most prolific offensive rebounder in NBA history (*wink*), drew fouls like a monster, 3 MVPs, a ring and a Finals MVP... Moses was nasty.

You know what, I forgot how nasty Moses was... I'm changing my order, with Mo above Havlicek and Kobe. Moses Malone was ridiculously good.

Then Doctor J and D-Rob to round out the top-20.

21 to 25 (just for completion's sake)

Clyde Drexler
Walt Frazier
Patrick Ewing
Scottie Pippen
Dominique Wilkins

Drexler led his Blazers to a pair of Finals (lost to the Pistons and to the Bulls) and was a nasty all-around player who had a great scoring peak. Then he won a ring as Olajuwon's wing man. He looked pretty good with that top-2 MVP vote finish behind Jordan, though he struggled to get on the All-NBA teams because of MJ and Payton and Stockton, etc.

Frazier was an outstanding defender, won two rings, an All-Star MVP, 4 All-NBA First Teams and a bunch of Defensive Team selections... His position here is a no-brainer, Frazier wasn't a statistical monster because of the balance of Holzman's system (which actually inspired Phil Jackson's search for a system of balance and cooperation that ended in the triangle) but he was straight nasty.

'Nique? I float on where to rank these last three guys but 'Nique was as good a scorer as you'll find, played on some Atlanta teams that didn't really match up well enough with the beasts of the 80s and the early 90s to compete. I guess he might be lower, because I'd take Pippen over 'Nique on my team because you can always add more offense but Scottie's D was outstanding. I still rank Ewing over Scottie though, because he's your nasty 24/11 big man who plays amazing defense and all that.

And that's that.

[KNICKS1970]

Crap, I totally forgot about Bob Petit.

I'd put him ahead of Karl Malone and bump everyone down a peg. Except I'd take Isiah off and keep the Admiral and KG in the Top 20. Sure, I know I had him ahead of both of them, but it's my list and also I'm a Knicks fan. Screw Isiah.

[tsherkin]

Isiah isn't even in my top-25, Knicks1970, lol.

Can't believe you forgot about Pettit. Malone was better than Pettit, though. Better passer, better scorer, better defender. Less athletic and not as good a rebounder but still better overall.

[NO-KG-AI]

Interesting tsherkin, I like your list a lot, I'd have Mike at one though, and I'd flip flop Magic and Bird, along with moving Russell right behind Kareem.

Shaq above Hakeem and Duncan though, and Hakeem above Duncan....

I like how high you have Garnett obviously, I disagree with Malone ahead of him, but it's great to see KG getting the respect he deserves(though you always did give it).

Interested on why so low on Doc J.

Funny how all the top PF's(if you count Duncan) fall one after the other like that. Since the year 2000, I think every DPOY should have gone to KG or Duncan.... maybe Deke that year, but Wallace(x4) Artest and Camby? no...

Mine:

Michael Jordan
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Shaq
West
Oscar Robertson
Hakeem

Next 10:

Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Doctor J
David Robinson
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Bob Pettit
Kobe Bryant
Charles Barkley
Hondo

[JordansBulls]

1. Michael Jordan (gets the top spot because of a few reasons: He never lost a series with homecourt advantage, has the highest PER ever recorded, has the most finals mvp's while the award exist, has the most 50+, 40+, 30+ games in the Playoffs, has the highest scoring average in the season, playoffs and finals (min 12 games), is the only player to average 30 ppg in the season and the playoffs and even the finals)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (has the most league mvp's, but IMO because he only has 2 Finals MVP's it hurts his case a bit for the top spot)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (sort of interchangeable with Kareem at #2, he is one hell of a great player, one of the best of all time, however the lack of titles won even though he has been on great teams and his production as far as ppg drops big time in the playoffs.)
4. Magic Johnson
5. Bill Russell
6. Larry Bird
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Tim Duncan
10. Oscar Robertson/Moses Malone


Mostly based on success, accolades, stats and achievements

[tsherkin]

Interesting tsherkin, I like your list a lot, I'd have Mike at one though, and I'd flip flop Magic and Bird, along with moving Russell right behind Kareem.

I don't value Russell as highly as most, nor do I think Michael was the GOAT. I mean, if you want to roll purely by achievements, then Russell, Jordan and Kareem are the top-3 but I'm factoring in other considerations as well.

Shaq above Hakeem and Duncan though, and Hakeem above Duncan....

Are you saying you disagree with Shaq at the 9 and then Hakeem and Duncan thereafter? Like I said, I flip-flop over Hakeem/Duncan but Shaq in my mind is definitely above both... for now. On the basis of achievements, though, Duncan is racking up a hell of a resume. You have the same order...

I like how high you have Garnett obviously, I disagree with Malone ahead of him, but it's great to see KG getting the respect he deserves(though you always did give it).

Hey, MVP, DPOY, ring, All-Star MVP, broke Bird's record for consecutive 20/10/5 seasons, hell of a four-year peak as a rebounder (tied with I think Wilt, Moses and Rodman as the only guys to win 4 consecutive rebounding titles)... He's got a resume worth praising and ranking high.

Interested on why so low on Doc J.

Not factoring in the ABA stuff because it's completely irrelevant to what he did in the NBA. He was an MVP and did well but he was never as dominant or as successful as the others. Most of his value in my mind comes from his stylistic traits and his meaning to the game subjectively rather than his impact on the court.

Funny how all the top PF's(if you count Duncan) fall one after the other like that. Since the year 2000, I think every DPOY should have gone to KG or Duncan.... maybe Deke that year, but Wallace(x4) Artest and Camby? no...

Artest... MAYBE. And I can justify 1 or 2 of Big Ben's DPOYs. But not Camby's and not at least two of Big Ben's DPOYs. Duncan should have 2 or 3 by now at least. He's clearly been the best defender of his era, he's just not a gaudy shot-blocker so it doesn't show.

And I don't know why you'd rank Magic above Bird (much as Magic's my favorite player of all-time, Bird was better).

[Sharpie]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Larry Bird
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. Magic Johnson
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Tim Duncan
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Jerry West

[KNICKS1970]

Alright, here's my updated list now: Like most people, the list juggles around, so here are brief explanations for them.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell

I usually keep MJ at one, because his career is like a combination of Wilt and Russell's career, the arguments have been made numerous times and I don't think I have to go over it again.

Wilt gets the nod ahead of Russell just because he was the better player of the two, even though Russell has more MVPs and championships. Russell gets #3 because he is the best defensive player ever and the greatest winner in the history of American team sports. People like to argue that he belongs further down because he wouldn't have done what he did in any other era, but I tend to brush aside any "what if?" conversation (I've said it before, I just think it's a poor way to argue) and I don't think anyone can take anything away from Russell winning 11 titles in what was a great era for basketball.

4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Larry Bird
6. Magic Johnson

I usually put Kareem behind Larry and Magic, but upon more thought his accomplishments and dominance make him a legitimate #1 candidate.

I take Larry over Magic for the same reason I take Wilt over Russell. Magic has the better resume, but head to head I feel that Larry was the better player at the peak of their careers...

7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Tim Duncan

...and that's the same reason why I have Shaq over Duncan, even though Duncan has the glossier resume. I feel like in years down the road, people will pick Duncan over Shaq just like people pick Magic over Larry just by looking at their resume's side by side. And I don't necessarily agree with that.

I think when two or three or even four players come along during the same era, then you have to factor in who was considered the better player at the time. And Shaq was a better and more dominant player than Tim Duncan at the peak of their abilities.

9. Jerry West
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Julius Erving

I just love Jerry West's toughness and clutch play, so despite his one championship and numerous losses in the Finals, I don't think you hold that against him. Hakeem carried two teams to the championship, which gives him the nod over Dr. J and Oscar. I think that Oscar is a better player than Dr. J was, but that's no knock on the Doc. I feel like some people think that it'll be insulting to have Oscar and Dr. J out of the Top 10, but it really isn't. Top 12 is fairly easy to come up with. These are the best players to ever play.

13. Moses Malone
14. Kobe Bryant
15. John Havlicek
16. Karl Malone
17. Walt Frazier
18. Bob Petit
19. David Robinson
20. Kevin Garnett

I agree with Tsherkin that Karl Malone is a better player than Petit, and upon further review his career is more impressive than Frazier's despite Clyde's role on those two Knick championship teams. But I'm still a biased Knick fan, so I will admittedly put my personal preference for Clyde when ranking him against Petit and Robinson (who's oddly becoming another one of those "people are forgetting how good he was" guys). KG breaks into the Top 20 by being the anchor for one of the greatest defensive teams of all time and because his postgame speech with Michelle Tafoya might be the best interview that ever took place in the NBA.

I have Barkley, Stockton, Pippen, Ewing, and Isiah rounding out my top 25. I just haven't figured out the order.

Kobe takes a lot of heat, some of it from me, but I think he'll eventually enter the Top 10. The Lakers should be really good for years to come, and he's going to be the main reason. But again, you can't crown him for things he could potentially do, so he's not a Top 10 player just yet. #14 feels like a good place to spot him.

[shawngoat23]

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Bird
6. Magic
7. Hakeem
8. Shaq
9. West
10. Erving
11. Robertson
12. Havlicek
13. Moses
14. Duncan
15. Baylor
16. Barry
17. Karl
18. Kobe
19. Pettit
20. Frazier

Barkley and Robinson barely missed the cut for me. They'd be considerably higher if this were based on ability and not career.

[wigglestrue]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Larry Bird
5. Magic Johnson
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7. Jerry West
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Julius Erving
10a. Hakeem Olajuwon
10b. Shaquille O'Neal
10c. Tim Duncan
13. Bob Pettit
14. Moses Malone
15. Karl Malone
16. Kobe Bryant
17. John Havlicek
18. Walt Frazier
19. Kevin Garnett
20. Elgin Baylor
21. Bob Cousy
22. David Robinson
23. Charles Barkley
24. Rick Barry
25. Isiah Thomas

I still like the wings at 7-9, Jerry/Oscar/Julius. I'm always switching Kareem from #4 to #6 and back, and today I saw what he put up in the 80's, basically a rich man's Jermaine O'Neal but not in a good sense. I have the courage today to rank Bird individually ahead of Magic. I'm not even going to bother parsing Hakeem/Shaq/Tim. There's something really unexciting about the Pettit/Moses/Karl trio.

[NO-KG-AI]

Are you saying you disagree with Shaq at the 9 and then Hakeem and Duncan thereafter? Like I said, I flip-flop over Hakeem/Duncan but Shaq in my mind is definitely above both... for now. On the basis of achievements, though, Duncan is racking up a hell of a resume. You have the same order...

No, I agree, just a lot of people seem to disagree.

I was looking over my list, and from about 12-20, I could see that in just about any order to be honest, with any of those guys being 12, and any being 20.

[KNICKS1970]

I still like the wings at 7-9, Jerry/Oscar/Julius. I'm always switching Kareem from #4 to #6 and back, and today I saw what he put up in the 80's, basically a rich man's Jermaine O'Neal but not in a good sense. I have the courage today to rank Bird individually ahead of Magic. I'm not even going to bother parsing Hakeem/Shaq/Tim. There's something really unexciting about the Pettit/Moses/Karl trio.

Wow, a Celtic fan has the courage to rank Bird over Magic, who would've thought?

(I'd take Larry over Magic too)

[KNICKS1970]

Note: I can't believe the players I'm forgetting. I totally blanked on Elgin Baylor. I wouldn't put him in the Top 20, but I think he's a Top 25 player definitely.

I gave it more thought, and my 21-30 would look something like

21. Charles Barkley
22. Elgin Baylor
23. Willis Reed
24. Bob Cousy
25. Rick Barry
26. Scottie Pippen
27. Clyde Drexler
28. John Stockton
29. Patrick Ewing
30. Allen Iverson

Yes, I realize in my original post I had Isiah in the Top 20, then in my 2nd post I had him in the Top 25. But hell, it's my list. Screw Isiah. I'll leave him off the Top 50 if I want.

(note: I'd probably put him at #22 or 23 in all honesty. But seriously, screw Isiah.)

[That Nicka]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaquille O'neal
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan
10. Jerry West
11. Oscar Robertson
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Julius Erving
14. Moses Malone
15. Karl Malone
16. Kevin Garnett
17. Bob Pettit
18. John Havlicek
19. Isiah Thomas
20. Walt Frazier
21. Charles Barkley
22. Elgin Baylor
23. David Robinson
24. Rick Barry
25. John Stockton

[wigglestrue]

Wow, a Celtic fan has the courage to rank Bird over Magic, who would've thought?

(I'd take Larry over Magic too)

Sounds weird, but for years I've always put Magic ahead of Bird on these lists out of some...I don't know, some anti-homer instinct deep within? The fear of being seen as a homer ( ) when it comes to such a serious task as listing my top 10-20-30-40-50 basketball players for the 500th time.