ALL-TIME DRAFT FINALS: TIME FOR JUDGES!

[penbeast0]

ATL Finals: Miami Heat v. Denver Nuggets

Congratulations Myth on putting together a great team. I am not sure it is possible to build a better team than Denver to play the traditional 60s/70s style of basketball where teams set up their big men in the post while their wing players shoot jump shots from outside. So . . . we aren’t going to try.

I built the Heat deliberately to counter the traditional old school powerhouse teams using our strengths to dictate the game and force them to play our game. First, we aren’t going to try to post up Wilt and Rodman, allowing them to body our big men and hang around the low post for rebounds. Mutombo will be playing less minutes in this series with Larry Nance and Jack Sikma coming in to force Wilt and the Worm to chase us around the perimeter or give us open midrange shots.

Deke and Derek Harper will still start but Nance will come in quickly and he and Wade will play the starter minutes with Harper and Sikma as the primary reserves and Mutombo and Dandridge (another All-D F/G greyhound that can shoot the lights out) spotting the top 7.

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Player Stats        Rpg  Apg  Ppg   FG%  3pt  FT%  Bl  St   
PG Magic Johnson    7.5 11.8  21.0 .523 .303 .850  0.5   2.0
SG Dwayne Wade      4.8  6.5  23.9 .481 .258 .774  0.9 1.7
SF LeBron James     6.9  6.6  27.3 .467 .324 .728  0.8 1.8
PF/SF Larry Nance   8.7  3.0  19.9 .565      .733  2.1 1.1
C/PF Bob McAdoo    13.2  3.2  29.7 .516      .765  2.1 1.2

PG/SG Derek Harper  2.9  7.4  17.6 .474 .352 .751  0.3 2.1
C/PF Jack Sikma    11.2  3.5  18.8 .477      .845  1.1 1.2
C Dikembe Mutombo  12.3  1.3  11.9 .545      .662  3.8 0.5
SF/SG Bob Dandridge 7.1  3.4  19.5 .502      .782  0.6 1.2

C Mel Daniels      16.9  2.0  20.3 .490      .677  not kept   
SG/PG Jeff Hornacek 3.4  4.7  17.3 .516 .427 .883  0.2 1.6
PG/SG Brian Taylor  2.7  4.3  14.3 .500 .370 .793  0.3 2.3


Team Strategy

Offensive Schemes: We will be attacking the Denver to turn their strengths into weaknesses. Their main strength is their two super physical rebounding low post defenders in Wilt and Rodman. Both, however, while GREAT low post defenders, tended to hang near the basket rather than expend their energy chasing opponents around the perimeter (Wilt more than Rodman of course)

“Wilt hated playing Lovellette. Lovellette was the first big outside shooting center (he wasn’t actually, Dolph Schayes was) and Wilt would start by chasing him but soon just let him take unguarded jump shots” Tall Tales quoting on of Wilt’s teammates. And, to quote RealGM HOF poster Tsherkin, “Rodman routinely ignored perimeter defense to chase rebounds” (lol) though to be fair, Michael Jordan make the same criticism … several times.

Lovellette was a 15-20 point, 44%, not terribly quick center. Bob McAdoo, on the other hand, is a 30ppg, 51%shooting, very quick athletic big who won MVP over Kareem (and was 2nd the year before and after) … if Wilt doesn’t chase him, Mac will dominate this series. Nance will also kill Rodman if Dennis hangs back, he is a 10ppg scorer with a .565FG%!! who was athletic enough to beat Dr. J and Nique in the first ever NBA Slam Dunk competition. He was very active, too active for Wilt, and will force Rodman to stay close, limiting the Worm’s ability to rebound and help Wilt. Sikma too was a big man who scored outside in leading Seattle to its only title and able to force Wilt/Rodman away from the basket. (And Eaton was as big and slow footed as any great defensive center too.) Denver has GREAT low post defenders and rebounders (unless they use the defensively weak Amare) but we aren’t challenging them there, we will instead run our Magic led passing offense to set up McAdoo or Nance/Sikma for open looks.

Our other offensive focus will be attacking the weak defense of Rick Barry and to a lesser extent Reggie Miller. Miller was a better defender than Barry, but both were vulnerable, particularly to quick, strong penetrators (hello LeBron/Magic/DWade!). If Wilt hangs under the basket to stop penetration, all our wings are great unselfish passers and it will be raining open 15 foot jumpers. If he does chase Mac out (assuming he covers McAdoo since Mac, for all his quickness, was more a standstill jump shooter than the running, wing penetrator style of a young Larry Nance), then LeBron, Magic, and Wade will be driving on their overmatched defenders. Even Billups, Denver’s only starting wing defender, would be badly overmatched trying to handle Magic, the greatest mismatch creator in NBA history. And, we still have solid outside shooting in McAdoo, Harper, Magic, Wade (Sikma, Dandridge, Hornacek, Taylor).

Defensive Schemes: Denver’s great outside shooting will force us to use the 2-2-1 match up zone only rarely if at all. I said Myth had a well constructed team! So, we will be in man coverage with Wade/Harper on Miller, the deepest threat, and LeBron and Magic using their greater strength and athleticism to mark Rick Barry and Billups. Bob Dandridge will be playing more this series when LeBron goes to the bench so we can still have an athletic defender and 20 point scorer to force Barry to work hard at both ends of the floor. Inside, Nance will be cheating off Rodman who had no range on his shot to allow him to double down on Chamberlain whenever Wilt gets the ball near the low post. McAdoo honed his skills against Kareem, Lanier, Bellamy, etc. but Wilt is close to unstoppable one on one and Mac can be overpowered. However, Nance and Mac were great leapers with good quickness who averaged over a steal a game (and over 2 blocks!) and Magic, LeBron, and Wade are all super athletic ball hawks who will disrupt the passing lanes into Wilt. And, of course, we will be running off those steals!

Finally, although Chamberlain and Rodman are two of the greatest rebounders ever, they will be kept away from the defensive boards chasing our sweet shooting bigs. This will free rebounding lanes for the other players and we have big rebounding edges at all three of the other positions. Barry was a below average rebounder; even in his championship season playing a lot of PF, he was out rebounded badly by his 6-5 F/G running mate Jamaal Wilkes, LeBron is stronger, quicker, and has a nose for the ball (even clearer taking pace into account!). Reggie, despite his size, disliked the contact, he never even reached 4 rpg in his career; Wade averages far better than Reggie’s peak. And Magic just dominates Billups in this area.

Overall: This series will be won by the team that can impose its will and style on the match up. If Denver can force a walk it up, feed it into the middle for post moves or kick out jumpers on Miami, they deserve to win. If Miami can push the pace and turn it into an open court game with Denver’s big rebounders chasing our jump shooters out away from the basket and our athletic wings able to drive on their weaker jump shooters, we will take this series. As great as Wilt was, I trust Magic to dictate the play and win.


MATCHUPS

Magic Johnson v. Chauncey Billups: Magic dominates the point guard match up. Chauncey is a big strong point, Magic is not just much bigger and stronger, he is also quicker and more skilled. He will create offense in the open court and be able to both drive on Billups and shoot over him efficiently and consistently. Edge: HEAT

Dwayne Wade v. Reggie Miller: Both great offensive players with clutch credentials. Wade is the quicker and stronger, he can body Reggie, take him to the hoop, and force him into fouls. Reggie has the shooting range and will try to run him off screens though all our defenders are quick and athletic with good court awareness able to help or fight past screens. Wade has an extra dimension though, he plays All-NBA defense. Edge HEAT

LeBron James v. Rick Barry: Two more great offensive players who were both great scorers and passers. LeBron again is the quicker and stronger who can take Barry off the dribble and force fouls, Barry again the long range threat (though LeBron was the better 3 point shooter). Again, LeBron’s rebounding and better defense adds the extra dimension. Edge: HEAT

Larry Nance v. Dennis Rodman: Two tremendous defenders. Nance is the quicker, more fluid player who adds the defensive shotblocking too (the only non-center in the top 10 all-time). Rodman is the super strong post defender (who won’t be facing post up offense) and rebounder. Nance adds the extra element of offense, scoring 20ppg on .556fg%! as opposed to Rodman’s career average of, well, 7, almost all from less than a yard away from the hoop. Edge: HEAT

Bob McAdoo v. Wilt Chamberlain: Let’s be honest. Wilt dominates everyone. He is the greatest rebounder and the most efficient scorer in history. But … McAdoo was a consistent MVP candidate in his peak, finishing 2nd, 1st, 2nd in three straight years against the likes of Kareem, Walton, Lanier, Frazier, West, Havlicek, etc. and he did it playing center during the era of the dominant centers by taking those centers out of their comfort zones and being the best shooting big man ever (ok, 2nd if you count Bird as a big). Wilt is the individual GOAT but McAdoo is going to give him more match up problems than even the GOAT candidates like Kareem or Russell by forcing Wilt to play a game he didn’t care to play. Still, edge NUGGETS

Depth: Miami has great depth starting with two way stars Jack Sikma (19pts/11reb, outside shooting big with All-D cred), Derek Harper (18pt/7ast, outside shooting guard with All-D cred), Bob Dandridge (20 pt, All-D) and Dikembe Mutombo (only 12 pt but 4 time DPOY) plus another MVP big man in Mel Daniels and two more sharpshooters in Hornacek and Taylor for 3 point offense. Our players play both ways with good offense and defense.
Denver has either good offense (Amare, Baker, Marques) or good defense (Buse, Bell, Eaton, Robertson) but only Robertson brought it on both ends and he was not a good percentage guy either shooting or passing. EDGE MIAMI

Intangibles: I won’t try to deconstruct the Nuggets. TrueLAFan did that well last round and you can read it here viewtopic.php?t=796808&start=0 (note, check out the notes on rebounding too, and we are stronger outside than LA is). But I will say that we have tremendous individual talents 12 deep and, we have unselfish talents. Magic, LeBron, and DWade have all been criticized for being TOO unselfish and Harper and Nance coexisted with great scorers and high usage stars. Even Big Mac took on the role of defensive specialist when needed in LA, much like Ron Harper did in Chicago. Our team is super talented, but they are the kind of players who will play TEAM ball and our top star, Magic, is the player in NBA history who is the greatest team first catalyst. EDGE MIAMI

[Myth_Breaker]

ALL-TIME LEAGUE FINALS

DENVER NUGGETS VS. MIAMI HEAT


GENERAL REMARKS

After successful attempts to build around dominant center, like I’ve done in the current league, Penbeast decided to go different route and re-create Showtime. He ended up with extreme opposite of TLA’s team. True collected as many All-Defense nominations and career 4th options as possible, while Pen gathered more pure talent than anyone in this league except perhaps mudyez. Yet his main talent is superfluous, grouping players who always dominated the ball for their respective teams. Prime Magic? 1st offensive option and dominant playmaker for the Lakers. Wade? 1st offensive option and dominant playmaker for the Heat. LeBron? Ditto for the Cavs. It doesn’t bode well for Pen’s team, regardless how unselfish these players are. There just has to be some pecking order and guys meshing with each other, while this core (reminding us of Kosta’s Kobe-Baylor-Cousy trio from the 1st round) simply doesn’t provide this. On one hand, prime Magic pretty much monopolized the ball while on the court, serving the guys with easy baskets. On the other, LBJ and Wade aren’t used both to play next to dominant creator/ballhandler and to play in a team that stresses ball movement a la Showtime as opposed to isolation plays. It’s like pairing up Magic and Stockton: no matter how unselfish they both are, such combination sounds rather superfluous and counterintuitive, right? And combination of Magic, Wade and LBJ is just as bad, what affects especially Magic, who in this group ends up far away from being a GOAT candidate from his real peak. Magic being distant 2nd offensive option and playing next to another outstanding playmaker? We’ve already seen that: Magic playing 2nd fiddle to Kareem and next to Norm Nixon. The result? Not 23/12 player, but merely 18/8 player. While if he still tries to play his dominant role from Lakers’ days, it’s going to throw out of their comfort zones Wade and LeBron, who both love to create for themselves and aren’t Worthy-like catch-and-shoot players.
Moreover, taking into account tremendous talent level in our league, none of these guys is a good long-range shooter or a good defender. (Explanation: Pen talks about starting Derek Harper, what strenghtens Miami on these accounts, but since Wade still plays starter’s minutes, more than Harper, it doesn’t do much for making Heat’s squad more balanced. BTW, Heat GM doesn’t make judges’/opponent’s job easier when refers to different players as starters at the same position).


STARTING FIVES

PG
Magic is going to outplay Billups big time, sure. But it doesn’t mean changing the tide of this series: for instance, Mavs led by PG similar to Billups (though less accomplished) in Derek Harper took great 1987 Lakers to 7 games. Additional plus compared to e.g. Billups’ duel with Payton: this time opponent PG is going to outproduce Chauncey on the offensive end even more, but he can’t do anything to him on the defensive end, so the net result might be actually more beneficial to me. But advantage goes to Heat anyway.

SG
It’s hard to select two more different off-guards than Wade and Miller. Dwyane is dynamic slasher without range, while Reggie: lanky shooter with virtually unlimited range. Wade is overrated defender (this single All-Defense selection was really controversial), while Reggie – underrated one. Neither can stop the other. While we must take into account essential factor that some judges seem to forget about: we are talking about 5-SEASON AVERAGES, NOT TOP SEASON PERFORMANCES. Since: a) Dwyane’s game will be limited due to the reasons listed in first paragraph; b) Wade’s peak covers his 2 first, weaker seasons, and c) he’s very injury-prone (unlike Miller), missing almost 100 games (!) during his 5 seasons – so like in Walton’s case, though to lesser extent, we should doubt in his ability to play big minutes - I expect prime Reggie to have analogical impact on the series. Tie.

SF
It’s similar to off-guard matchup, but more favorable to me. Barry and LeBron won’t contain each other, while taking into account that LBJ’s 5-season average included his rookie and sophomore season, when he wasn’t MVP candidate yet, you must prefer in this duel more consistent Barry, with his superior experience including multiple Finals appearances and Finals MVP. Slight advantage: Nuggets.

PF
Prime McAdoo was known as egocentric, defenseless, me-first and shot-first player, whose impressive numbers didn’t translate into team success. If you suggest that we may accuse Barry of similar character flaws… well, we really can’t, due to 3 KEY differences:
- Barry grown up remaining in his peak, what I took into account while selecting his reference seasons – while McAdoo even in his Lakers’ 6th man role, when he was supposed to be more of a team player, still remained pain in the ass as to feeling superior over his teammates, as evidenced by Magic’s autobiography – so it shouldn’t amaze that Lakers got rid of him already before 1985/86 season, while he still was productive player;
- Barry registered team success from the very beginning, as evidenced by these multiple Finals performances: no empty numbers here;
- Barry was never soft, while as to Bob, one anecdote tells everything. During one game he was guarded by Celtics’ Cowens, known from physical defense and intimidating elbows. Being afraid of this defense, McAdoo played further and further from the basket, ending well beyond his usual comfort zone and thus having minimal impact on the game. Those Celts have one guy in Cowens as to effective guarding Bob: I have freakin’ Wilt and Rodman, not to mention Eaton’s intimidation in the paint. Care to say: minimal impact all over again? You may be inclined to give advantage to McAdoo here due to his MVP/scoring crowns, but I’m telling you: his shots and overall numbers will be severely limited, hence Heat’s edge in PF matchup is negligible.

While if we compare Rodman not to nominal starter in McAdoo, but to Nance: Rodman, who guarded even Jordan in his career, is athletic enough to guard Larry, thanks. Head-to-head performances of this two: Nance with 16,5 ppg/7,1 rbg in 36 mpg vs. Rodman with 7,8 ppg/13,2 rpg in 31,8 mpg. So Worm registered comparable overall stats in 5 mpg less (this limitation not being his fault, but caused by great Pistons’ depth), while also providing superior man-to-man defense. Isn’t it inevitable to say that Denver enjoys slight advantage in PF matchup in such case?

C
The most important and most lopsided matchup of this series. While Mutombo was a great defender, he’s helpless against one simple example: Shaq – basically lesser Wilt – during 2001 Finals got 33,0 ppg on .570 shooting/15,8 rpg/4,4 apg/3,4 bpg on Deke! Talk about dominance: and then imagine how much Wilt would be better in this situation, especially taking into account such his performances as 22 ppg/32 rpg/10 apg/probably around 10 bpg during 1967 Eastern Finals vs. defensive GOAT in Russell!
In this round you wrote Heat are gonna give Sikma more PT in favor of Dikembe. While Jack is more potent offensive player and has better range than Mutombo, he remains much weaker rebounder/shotblocker/man-to-man defender – so what he gets on one end, gives up on the other.
While next paragraph states that McAdoo will get most minutes at 5, what makes your nominal starter only 3rd most important C – it’s really strange. Anyway, Wilt is going to eat McAdoo alive: see my paragraphs on PF matchup and on my defense.

So no matter how you put it and spin it: COLOSSAL advantage goes to the Nuggets.


BENCH

Due to this confusion from Pen’s side about whom we should treat as starters, it’s harder to make straight comparison of bench players. But assuming Wade is treated as such: I have the best offensive player on both benches in Amare and better defensive crew in Alvin, Buse, Raja and Eaton. Buse is ABA/NBA assist champion with ABA championship experience and ABA/NBA steals champion. A. Robertson is DPOY and the best ball-thief in NBA history, leading the league 3 times in this category and having best-ever career 2,7 spg average. Even Raja Bell, in addition to his pesky defense, is 14th on all-time list as to 3P shooting in the playoffs with superb .409 accuracy! All in all, Harper, Deke or Dandridge are nice, but my bench seems more diversified and potent (especially as 2 most valuable Heat’s bench players in Deke and Sikma can’t really play together, both being classic centers). Advantage: Nuggets.


NUGGETS’ OFFENSE VS. HEAT’S DEFENSE

Taking into consideration tremendous scoring/passing abilities of Wilt and Barry, Clips defense against them looks particularly pitiful. My reincarnation of Shaq-Kobe duo wasn’t stopped by Kareem, Hakeem, Bobby Jones or Pippen, and now you expect Deke and LBJ to achieve more than those all-time defenders vs. Denver’s unstoppable offensive forces? Magic can’t do anything in defense vs. smaller, quicker guys – and Billups is no exception here. Moreover, due to this inability Magic most often guarded swingmen, what raises important matchup problem: will you put him on Barry – where he’d be even more helpless than vs. Billups due to Barry being more dangerous scorer and having comparable length to Earvin - what additionally forces you to put LeBron on Billups, what in turn increases probability of LBJ’s foul trouble? (Defensive problems were main reason of switching LeBron from 1 to 3 after his rookie season: he can’t guard PGs, period). Or perhaps Wade on Billups, Magic on Barry and LeBron on Miller? All these combinations sound just absurd and highlight your matchup problems against my team.


NUGGETS’ DEFENSE VS. HEAT’S OFFENSE

Denver has two very good defenders in Billups and Raja and two great ones in Alvin Robertson and Buse to rotate vs. the most valuable Heat player in Magic (before you say he’s too big for them, they have the same size as his most dangerous actual defender in DJ while Alvin and Buse are also just as great in defense as Johnson) and 3rd most valuable in Wade. While when LeBron – your 2nd star – gets too hot, I may put on him one of perhaps 2 defenders in history – the other being Artest – with complete package of size, strength and skills adequate to guard James – Dennis Rodman. Then Wilt guards your best scoring big, McAdoo – poor guy is going to meet someone both bigger, quicker, stronger and tougher than him – comfortably leaving garbage scorer in Deke alone (also Nance/Sikma, while better than Mutombo, isn’t dangerous enough scorers to really worry about: they won’t change the tide of this series) . Therefore, completely unlike you, I have defenders to contain opponent’s most valuable players. While even regardless of man-to-man defense: LBJ and especially Wade will be exposed as to their limited range when Wilt’s and Eaton’s intimidation in the paint forces them to shoot jumpers. Hey, LeBron shoot .356 from the field while committing 5,8 turnovers per game while facing superior Spurs defense in the Finals, being hounded by Bowen and intimidated under the basket by Duncan. Now replace Spurs defense with even more stiffling Nuggets defense, Bowen with Rodman and TD with Wilt/Eaton and the picture gets even scarier for King James.


REBOUNDING

Wilt, Rodman, Eaton, Marques, Alvin or Buse give me decisive edge in this aspect: no doubts about that. You try to counter my superiority on the boards with this talk about drawing my guys away from the basket, but even if this tactic was partially successful, it cannot erase such colossal advantage. And bear in mind that rebounding has been traditionally statistic most correlated with wins during the Finals series!


INTANGIBLES AND CONCLUSION

It’s funny you try to use TLA’s chemistry arguments against me since a) I could rather use them against you cause my squad is closer to his not-too-many-shots ideal than yours; b) TLA’s Clips lost anyway. But I’m not suggesting your team is going to implode: rather that it’s built in a way not allowing to maximalize your talent and way too unbalanced. Failed experiment, I might say, comparable to this season’s Denver Nuggets. Too many aggressive scorers, suspicious defense, not enough outside shooters – you get the drift. (That’s why I suspect next time you’ll try to build around 2-way big again, as it’s the best way in such leagues ). Comparing starting 5s head-to-head, I have advantage at SF and C, you – at PG, while at SG it’s a tie. (At PF it depends on whether you take into account McAdoo or Deke). But looking at teams as a whole, Nugs will fare even better than it would look like on the basis of isolated matchups (due to e.g. better flexibility in defense I’ve already mentioned). In addition to better man-to-man defense, Denver is better in shotblocking, rebounding, stealing the ball and 3P shooting. I’ve got 3 Finals MVPs in my rotation as opposed to Pen’s 2. I have the strongest and most physical guys in the series in Wilt and Eaton, aided by Rodman. I’ve got more productive bench. Not to mention the “minor” detail that I’ve got the best overall player in both teams in Chamberlain. And so on…
As a bonus, one more story illustrating how more impactful Wilt was even compared to player of Magic’s caliber: once he played pickup game vs. Magic’s team. He got angry after one officiating decision, so told everyone: “no layups from this moment on”. And exactly this happened: he blocked every single dunk/layup of young superstar Magic and his mates, being himself >40 years old! Now imagine poor Magic going against PRIME Wilt… As great as Earvin was, he couldn’t stop his team from losing when Moses outrebounded and outscored Kareem in 1981 playoffs or when Hakeem and Sampson shut down Jabbar 5 years later. PG’s impact is huge, but 2-way bigs have even greater impact: it’s always been this way and history is going to repeat again.

The result of this all may be only one: Nuggets in 6, despite Miami’s homecourt advantage.

[penbeast0]

Some stat comparisoms on efficiency:

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Starting lineups listed by shots attempted (true shooting % used to give Miller/Billups the benefit of their three point shooting . . . though it hurts the poor FT shooting Wilt):
PLAYER (% of FG attempted) TSP   v.  PLAYER (% of FG attempted)    TSP
McAdoo (28%)              .566      Barry 72-76 (32% !)            .513 !!
LeBron (26%)              .548       Wilt  66-71 (24%)            .572
Magic  (18%)              .611       Miller 90-94 (22%)           .635
Harper (17%) Wade (19%)   .552/.563  Billups 04-08 (16%)          .594
Dikembe (10%) Nance (16%) .586/.605  Rodman 92-98 (8%)            .510

Because Myth worried about it, I used our starting lineups, our higher minute lineup for this series with Wade and Nance is even more efficient.  As you can see the lineups are about equal in efficiency EXCEPT that Barry, their main gunner, is over 50 points worse than McAdoo (or just about anyone else!) and he takes a higher percentage of their shots which more than makes up for the much slighter edge that Wilt and Miller have over LeBron and Magic and Rodman's having no shot let's us double Wilt whereas Myth can't double off anyone.
 

Quick note about Wilt : Wilt was unique in that he had so much talent he could basically do anything he focused on in basketball. He was also obsessive compulsive (always slept with Asian girls, when he was a scorer he led the league in shots, then he deliberately dropped to <15 shots/game while trying to lead league in assists, etc.). He wouldn't change his game now that he got to the finals, he proved that over and over. So, Wilt is going to be a defensive, high post passing hub (in the years Myth is using) who won't chase jump shooters out onto the floor . . . that isn't him. Remember, Wilt in his scoring years didn't play great defense (think Shaq, intimidating but not really fundamental) nor did he shoot great percentages (high 40s, low 50s while still a terrible free throw shooter). So, facing McAdoo, he won't suddenly go back to the 50 ppg Wilt, he will continue to do it his way. He will get his 20-25 ppg on 60%+ shooting and choke away key free throws late in the game . . . that's Wilt.

First, our team build. (1) Magic is the dominant playmaker, he will have the ball in his hands first looking to force doubleteams or find an open Bob McAdoo (who should easily shake Wilt . . . he can't outmuscle or post up Wilt, but Wilt was never good against jump shooting centers and Mac is the greatest jump shooting center of all time . . . he killed big low post guys like Bob Lanier or Walt Bellamy who weren't quick enough to chase him. LeBron is the secondary playmaker and secondary scorer to Magic/McAdoo, Magic always thrived with a second playmaker (Nixon was a 10 ast/g prime, Cooper, B.Scott, all his backcourt mates were top passers). Wade comes in and plays 30 mpg but not the 40 mpg of our big three to protect him from injury, he provides energy, scoring, and defense (healthy Wade is NOT controversial as a top defender, he is excellent); Derek Harper plays 20+ as our fourth guard for his catch and shoot skills, his ballhandling, and his All-NBA Defensive skills to keep Reggie from tiring anyone out.

Our last spot has always been a three headed monster of Deke/Nance/Sikma. Of the three, Deke is the big physical defender . . . Myth claims Shaq was successful against him but if you run the head to head matchups, you will see that Deke significantly impacted Shaq defensively (Shaq was still great, just not as great) . . . something even Hakeem, David Robinson, and Zo weren't able to do. Nance is our big version of John Havlicek, a superathletic defender who is in constant motion and who will score 20-25p/48min on .550+ FG%!! He will force Rodman to chase him away from Rodman's favorite rebounding spots and if the Worm turns, he is more than capable of taking over a game offensively. Sikma wasn't a classic center, he came into the league as a 4 and had classic 4 skills with the body of a 5 . . . he was a face up scorer relying on his unblockable behind the head jump shot which was accurate out to 20 feet. With those 3 and the pure shooting McAdoo, we will try to give different looks and keep Wilt and Rodman from hanging under the basket, clearing driving lanes for our superathletic, good rebounding wing/point players to even the battle of the boards since his outside players are pretty passive rebounders (except Billups who is badly overmatched).

Finally, Myth still has the issue that other than Wilt and Billups, all his players are either great offensive players with defensive holes we can attack, or great defensive players who are mediocre (in a league of all-time greats) on offense. Our weakest offensive player is Mutombo (12+ ppg at .545FG%!) and our only below average defenders are Magic (great team defender but beatable off the dribble ... though Billups isn't that type of scorer fortunately) and little used 3 point specialist Jeff Hornacek. Otherwise, 7 of our 12 players were All-Defense team selections and that doesn't include Mel Daniels who would have been if they'd had those teams in the early ABA (he got MVP instead). Finally, let me clarify Bob McAdoo's defensive abilities in his prime. He was a jump shooting finesse player who relied on quickness in the heyday of the low post offense . . .as such he took a lot of heat. However, (1) his Drtg is consistently above the league average (2) he was clearly a good help defender averaging over 2 blocks and 1 steal a game and (3) if you look at his prime team (Buffalo), they were an average team through his tenure (8/10/12 out of 18, with 3 straight trips to the EC Semis) then the year he was dealt they dropped to 19/22 and from 45+wins to 30, then to 21/22 and 27 wins!). None of those in themselves are perfect indicators but together they indicate an above average defender, plus Pat Riley in LA loved his defense (and Magic was generally favorable in his comments about Mac despite Myth's claim, "Bob was a key part of our team success").

So, for Myth to win . . . (a) our unselfish players have to turn selfish and get in each other's way, (b) Wilt has to change his spots and chase McAdoo outside while turning himself back into the scoring low post player image that he hated and tried to eradicate and (c) weak defending non-physical Rick Barry and Reggie Miller have to body up and outplay LeBron James and Dwyane Wade.

For us to win . . . (a) Magic has to dominate Chauncey Billups, (b) McAdoo has to be able to get free for outside jump shots against the bigger slower Wilt Chamberlain, and (c) James, Wade, and Nance have to outscore Barry, Miller, and Dennis Rodman.

I think plan two seems much the more likely; if it is close, we have Wilt (and Rodman) to put on the line and the home court advantage.

[JordansBulls]

Starting lineups listed by shots attempted (true shooting % used to give Miller/Billups the benefit of their three point shooting . . . though it hurts the poor FT shooting Wilt):
PLAYER (% of FG attempted) TSP v. PLAYER (% of FG attempted) TSP
McAdoo (28%) .566 Barry 72-76 (32% !) .513 !!
LeBron (26%) .548 Wilt 66-71 (24%) .572
Magic (18%) .611 Miller 90-94 (22%) .635
Harper (17%) Wade (19%) .552/.563 Billups 04-08 (16%) .594
Dikembe (10%) Nance (16%) .586/.605 Rodman 92-98 (8%) .510


An appealing NBA Finals matchup, but how will it go.

Well there are advantages and disadvantages on both sides.

The Nuggets have the biggest advantage and mismatch with Wilt on the team the guy who is the best
player on the floor and he will no doubt dominate his matchup.
Rick Barry is one of the greatest finals performers ever as well so that would be to their advantage as well. As well as I think the shooting of Billups and Miller will be a key factor.
I think the Nuggets have the balance in backcourt and frontcourt to match and beat anyone.


On the other side of things I really like the Heat's team. The trio of Magic, Wade and LEbron would virtually be unstoppable and you have 3 players that are unselfish in that regard as well. Up front Deke will get killed against Wilt but as long as he stays out of foul trouble he will be ok.
Mcadoo presents matchup problems as well because of his ability to score and spread the floor.


So who do I like in this intriguing matchup?

Well I like both teams and I believe the games will be close and really in a close game it comes down
to execution. I like the Heat for the simple fact they have multiple players that can make the big
plays and right decisions at the correct time even though the Nuggets have the best player on the floor.

Also when considering the Nuggets frontcourt with Wilt and then with Rodman at PF I don't see that functioning well.
Rodman is not a useful player when he has another dominant rebounder up front (see 1995 Spurs team)

The Nuggets liability at the end of the game with 2 bad free throw shooters will not help them in this contest unless the other 3 players get the ball.

Both Wilt and Rodman are not good to have in at the end of a close game because of free throw shooting so if they come out, then guys like Lebron and Wade would have a field day at the end to drive in the paint.

So if I had to pick a winner I would take the Miami Heat to be the NBA Champion.

[keepthenetsinnj]

What a series this would be! Here we go...

Starting with the backcourt for each team, Magic is clearly a greater PG than Chauncey. He will outplay him in almost every aspect of the game. He will set up plays and distribute better, he can use his height and strength to post up on Billups or shoot over him to score, and his tremendous size advantage will help him on the defensive end. Billups will still give his absolute best to Magic and will indeed give him some trouble, but Magic will give Chauncey twice the trouble and leave him confused. At the 2 guard, Wade vs. Reggie is a very interesting matchup. Wade is stronger and more aggressive when driving into the paint. However, Reggie is very quick with and without the ball, and he has a great amount of range, while that is a major weakness of Wade. Since we have not seen Flash's real prime yet, Reggie holds the slight upper-hand in this matchup. He is very clutch and will definitely fatigue Wade in a hurry.

Now for the frontcourt, LeBron James vs. Rick Barry is very intriguing. LBJ is obviously much quicker, stronger, and more athletic overall. However, Barry is much more experienced and a very gifted offensive player. For me, this matchup can really go either way. It all revolves around the athleticism of LBJ vs. the experience of Barry. Both have a tremendous amount of talent and will play very important roles scoring for their respective teams. The PF and C positions will be analyzed together because there seem to be some changes in the starting lineups. According to pen's writeup, Nance will now be starting instead of Mutombo. I am not sure about this move because Mac moves to the C position against Wilt. McAdoo is only 6'9", while Wilt is over 7 feet tall and perhaps the greatest center of all time. I do not think it is any secret that Wilt will dominate this matchup. However, Nance and Rodman will be an entertaining matchup. Both are excellent defenders and rebounders, with Nance holding the edge in scoring ability. This edge gives Miami the overall edge at the PF position, because Nance and Rodman are similar in many aspects, but the scoring advantage puts Nance on top.

The big matchup off the bench is Mutombo vs. Amare. Both are tremendous assets off the bench, and I ultimately believe Miami has the slightly better bench. Players like Sikma, Harper, and Mutombo solidify and lead this team's bench and their bench seems to possess greater all-around skills.

The big decision: Miami Heat win a very hard-fought series and become NBA Champions.

[LeQuitterNotMVP]

Nuggets at Heat

First off, let me say that you 2 have built great teams. Congrats for reaching the finals!

Now for the judging...

I'm not sure if I like the decision to bench Mutombo and start McAdoo at C. Wilt would pound Mutombo inside as it is; not sure how putting McAdoo there helps. It makes sense in theory with forcing Wilt outside, but Wilt will dominate on offense, and other guys won't be able to drive into the lane if Wilt is not guarding anyone. As for the perimeter - I think that the Heat have the advantage at PG and SF, and SG is a toss-up of 2 different styles - pure shooter vs. all-around scorer. While you could say that an all-around scorer is more valuable, I think Reggie is a perfect fit for the Nuggets and will get tons of open looks with Wilt down low and Billups distributing. Obviously, the big 3 of the Heat will make this tough on the Nuggets, and so will the lack of homecourt, but I think the Nuggets hold a HUGE advantage in the post and have a well-rounded team, so I'm going to have to force another judge to come in here, as I choose the Nuggets in a hard-fought 7-game series.

[Myth_Breaker]

In short:

Pen:
- Glad you admit you can count on Wade only for 30 mpg. It only reinforces my point that prime, 36-mpg Reggie will have the same or even bigger impact in this matchup.
- Claiming you have 3-headed monster at C is a nice way of saying that you'd have to merge Deke, McAdoo and Sikma into one player to get a superstar comparable to Wilt. Since it's obviously impossible and since neither Deke not Sikma can play PF, so they can't be on the floor together for extended periods, the answer is clear: advantage that I enjoy at the most important position remains tremendous. BTW, if I want to talk in similar way about my bigs, what about 4-headed monster of Wilt, Eaton, Vin and Amare?

J_B:
- You repeat claims that Rodman plays bad next to another dominant rebounder without backing it up in any way. His disagreements with Robinson made him left the Spurs, but it had nothing in common with Admiral's prowess on the boards. Actually, in San Antonio Rodman was still better player than later with the Bulls, when in 1997 and 1998 wasn't even elected to any All-Defensive Team and was outrebounded by Malone in both Finals series. While in his absolute peak Worm played for very good rebounding team in Pistons and next to another great rebounder in Laimbeer, so it's clear that your claims are completely unfounded.

All:
- Remember last (and first) time when Wade and LeBron played for the same team for the whole tournament? Yep: it was 2006, when American NT won only bronze, despite colossal talent advantage over Greece (of course, so huge advantage doesn't exist in our league). As great as LBJ and Wade are individually, they simple aren't made to play together, both being ball-dominant and sharing the same weaknesses. For instance, pairing one of them with Billups would result in more effective, though less talented duo. But Pen went with pure talent and famous names: I went different route, collecting parts that fit together, though I have possibility to select Wade instead of Billups. Would my team be better off then? No, it would be actually worse, with weaker defense and long-range shooting and another guy who needs many shots. BTW, did you consider how many shots would need Magic, Wade, LeBron and McAdoo playing together? I agree that in the league as talented as ours there will be more attempts available than in your average team, made up of mainly scrubs, but this number isn't unlimited, so Pen really went too far with his offense-only quartet.

Performance of recent US teams proves that my approach towards creating a balanced squad is better, so everyone please take it into account while judging. Give me your votes and go Nuggets!

[NO-KG-AI]

Love both of these teams, voted for both all the way through I believe, I think this would be a wonderful finals.

First off, let me apologize for being so flaky with this, I've been having not so much free time, and when I have been on RealGM I've been quick replying to topics, and I didn't wanna just post anything short, so I put it off, until now.

Now, lets get to it.

First thing that jumps out is how stylistically different these teams are, especially in the back court, both have nice size, but the Heat are down right massive at point and wings. I think both back courts are going to put up numbers on each other, in different ways, but still both will be quite effective.

Up front, I still don't think anyone can sniff Wilt and Rodman, and with Eaton, Amare to play quite specialized roles, its all gravy up there for Denver, Deke and McAdoo, along with Nance and Sikma don't match up so well IMO.

Mutumbo always is an intimidating force in the lane, but he is that because he is huge, and he uses his size on opposing centers, and stops all opposing players from getting to the rim. The issue here is that Wilt is bigger, and he will be up against Mutumbo virtually all the time wearing him down, and Denver isn't a dribble penetration team, but will be living on Wilt, and open shooters.

Him going to the bench doesn't help at all IMO, McAdoo might get Wilt away from the rim a bit, but Wilt can recover as quick as any big, and the abuse he is going to put to McAdoo will be brutal, constant doubles will have to come..... T

Wilt can fill a similar role to Mutumbo, stopping all players from going to the rim, which is one of Miami's strengths here, because LeBron and Wade will be able to get to the rim, but they will have a terror waiting for them in the paint, and eventually the team might be forced into jumpers, and it's not a huge strength for them, and Rodman won't be giving many open looks to McAdoo.

When it's McAdoo at C, LeBron and Wade will get more buckets that Wilt can't get to, but I think it will be more of an issue than they think, and Rodman is going to do the job on Nance or whoever else he guards....

Where Miami is going to thrive will be if the shooters hit a cold spell, or maybe just some road misses, and Magic, LeBron, or Wade can pull down a long rebound, and it's off to the races and getting some easy buckets for them.

Wilt's knock is his clutchness I suppose, but it won't be an issue with Barry, Miller, and Billups.

This is a tough series, depending on how the shooting is going, Denver should be able to make it a grind out game, but if they start to miss, Miami is going to be running and getting easy buckets, and that will make the shots start dropping, and get them fired up defensively.

Verdict:

Just want to say congratulations to both guys for making it this far, and great job drafting, not only on the talent level, but constructing TEAMS.

I'm going to go with Denver in 7, both teams steal a game on the road, Denver wins a close game at home in one of the most lopsided finals(stylistically) ever. Defense, rebounding, and shooting(the big 3 fundamentals?) win out.

[Myth_Breaker]

Hooray, I'm back in the series after being down 0-2!

[penbeast0]

Two quick replies to that. First, if Mutombo is on Wilt, he is actually a bit bigger though not as athletic and (to repeat myself) Mutombo is the only modern center to actually have a significant efficiency impact on Shaq and . . . for these years of Wilt and adjusted to pace . . . .prime Shaq is not only a much more efficient center than Wilt but scores nearly 40% more!

As for Rodman stopping McAdoo, that leaves Wilt trying to chase Nance which is why we are going small ball despite having as effective an answer as anyone has ever had to Wilt. McAdoo may be the best outside shooter but Wilt at least has a chance to guard him if he chooses too (though it takes him out of the middle). Nance, allowed frequent breaks by the presence of Deke and Sikma, will be John Havlicek to Wilt, forcing him to chase him all over the court or be wide open . . . and Nance is a 20 ppg .550+ shooter with an excellent midrange game! I do believe Rodman limits Nance but if they go Wilt on him, Nance will have a field day.

And, Wilt will see constant doubles off Rodman who has no shot, no range, and despite people doubling off him his entire career, a prime where he averaged well under 10 ppg in much slower company than this. Wilt won't face just McAdoo (who spent his career facing Kareem, Bellamy, Lanier, Hayes, etc.) but also the super athletic Larry Nance . . . and ballhawks Magic, LeBron, Wade, and Harper in the passing lanes (plus Mac and Nance were both top ballhawks for bigs). Miller actually worries me the most but with Wilt trying to post up, only Rodman sets picks on that team and we have a lot of big quick atheltic guys fighting over those picks.

[Myth_Breaker]

Not true, Pen: peak Wilt is 7-1 1/16 barefoot - so like 7-3 in shoes, 275 lbs, while Deke - 7-2 in shoes, 260 lbs. Not only Wilt is more athletic and stronger than Mutombo, he also is bigger and longer than him.

While given that head-to-head Shaq averaged 21,4 ppg on .526 shooting and 12,3 rpg (winning 16 out of 23 games) vs. Deke's mere 7,7 ppg/9 rpg, advertising Mutombo's defense on Diesel is rather unfounded, especially as we remember that Wilt is even better than Shaq!

Oh, and I didn't respond before to your strange claim that once Chamberlain was in passing mode, he forgot how to score. But I posted even earlier on how he averaged 50 ppg through 4 games when wanted to show he still can score during 1966/67 season: or what about 45 points in one game of 1970 Finals, when was past his prime?

With Barry, Billups, Buse and Alvin Robertson combined I have actually more productive ballhawks than you: and more steals means more fastbreak opportunities for my team.

Having no significant defender against him (since Derek Harper - your only good man-to-man defender on the perimeter - will be busy against Billups), Reggie won't have to worry about people setting picks for him: he will get enough easy looks anyway.

[penbeast0]

In answer
(1) ok, equal size
(2) Yes, Shaq averaged 21pts on .526 . . . as opposed to the 25.2/.581 he has averaged for the rest of his career (which actually understates it since they played more minutes against each other in Shaq's prime). That's a SIGNFICICANT defensive effect! And in your chosen years, Shaq was the better scorer adjusted for pace; Wilt's great scoring days with the Warriors were also the period when he was lazy on defense and didn't pass and you have chosen not to use them I believe.
(3) Yes Buse and Robertson are great ballhawks . . . and much less dangerous offensive weapons than Billups/Miller. You have a lot of great scorers, a lot of great defenders, but other than Wilt (and to a lesser extent Billups/Robertson) your scorers don't defend and your defenders don't score. If you put those players in the game, we won't have to guard them closely outside (Buse could shoot when wide open but he's Bruce Bowenesque, Robertson didn't have an outside shot) and will be able to hang out in the passing lanes or double . . . you don't have that luxury against Magic/LeBron/Wade/Harper, all of whom demand close coverage.
(4) Harper and Wade are both excellent perimeter defenders, one of them will be on Miller, he's your most dangerous threat. Magic will face Billups/Buse as the writeup says.

[Myth_Breaker]

In answer
(1) ok, equal size


No, Wilt's still bigger.

(2) Yes, Shaq averaged 21pts on .526 . . . as opposed to the 25.2/.581 he has averaged for the rest of his career (which actually understates it since they played more minutes against each other in Shaq's prime). That's a SIGNFICICANT defensive effect! And in your chosen years, Shaq was the better scorer adjusted for pace; Wilt's great scoring days with the Warriors were also the period when he was lazy on defense and didn't pass and you have chosen not to use them I believe.

OK, if you want to be technical... Deke vs. Shaq averaged 7,7 ppg on .500 shooting/9 rpg vs. his career averages of 9,9 ppg on .518 shooting and 10,4 rpg. Therefore despite's Deke's famous defense, actually Shaq limited him more than he limited Shaq, who actually improved his rebounding stats vs. Mutombo! Diesel outproduced Dikembe head-to-head by at least 100%: replace O'Neal with Chamberlain and you'll get like 150%. Any more questions?
I didn't use Wilt's Warriors days, don't know why you'd think otherwise: but still Wilt even on his worst day was more impactful defender than Shaq on his best day anyway. And while he scored less in my reference period than Shaq, he was instead better rebounder, passer, shotblocker and man-to-man defender - simply better all-around player.

(3) Yes Buse and Robertson are great ballhawks . . . and much less dangerous offensive weapons than Billups/Miller. You have a lot of great scorers, a lot of great defenders, but other than Wilt (and to a lesser extent Billups/Robertson) your scorers don't defend and your defenders don't score. If you put those players in the game, we won't have to guard them closely outside (Buse could shoot when wide open but he's Bruce Bowenesque, Robertson didn't have an outside shot) and will be able to hang out in the passing lanes or double . . . you don't have that luxury against Magic/LeBron/Wade/Harper, all of whom demand close coverage.

Nope, LeBron and Wade don't demand close coverage at all when forced into jumpshooting mode, what will be inevitably caused by Wilt's/Eaton's/Rodman's intimidation in the paint. Anyway, I like how you try to spin the simple truth, which is:
- my starting 5 leaves your starting 5 in the dust as to defense, while taking into account my better 3P shooting and your guys limited by number of shots available my offense is fully comparable to yours.
- my bench is more potent and diversified than yours, having at disposal the best post defender in Eaton, the best perimeter defender/ballhawk in Alvin Robertson and the best scorer in Amare.

Try to spin THIS!

(4) Harper and Wade are both excellent perimeter defenders, one of them will be on Miller, he's your most dangerous threat. Magic will face Billups/Buse as the writeup says.

Wade or even Harper (superior defender to Wade) are nothing in defense compared to Jordan/Pippen or Ewing's Knicks' suffocating overall defense. Since Reggie had no problems not only with maintaining, but even improving his overall stats against excellent defense of those Bulls/Knicks, I cannot envision him having any trouble vs. your team, which is frankly speaking very mediocre on the defensive end.

Defense wins championships, remember? Not to mention rebounding: and I win on both these counts.

[penbeast0]

Actually talent wins championships and you have great talent . . . for the 1960s/70s. Rule changes have made it much tougher to be a dominant team built around post scoring/outside shooting, just look at the Rockets with Yao. However, they have freed up the game for slashers, primarily with the no handchecking rule and the much greater tendency to call blocking unless a player flagrantly flops . . . which only Rodman does on your squad, lol.

We have an outstanding defensive team with great shotblocking (Mutombo, Nance, McAdoo), a top on the man outside defender to contain the hot hand (Harper, Wade), and long athletic guys with good court intelligence even if not great man guys in the other two spots (Magic, LeBron) plus additional bench stoppers. A total of 7 NBA All-D team members and only Magic (and maybe Hornacek) is below average as a man defender.

Against another post teaam, you have a great defensive squad, but while Rodman is good enough to chase Nance around the perimeter, it isn't his strength and takes away from his rebounding. Similarly, Wilt is a great post defender but a poor defender out on the floor and chasing McAdoo (Nance is just too quick for him) will also draw him away from the basket. Then you have weak defending wings who will be overpowered on weakside drives away from Wilt (Rodman isn't a great help defender) and Billups who is solid but also badly overmatched. We have a huge edge in outside reboudning to counter your inside edge. You have better 3 point shooting and Wilt, that's about it. We double Wilt (off Rodman) and force you to beat us from the wing with Barry (poor efficiency) or Miller (facing our best perimeter defenders).

Todays game is built around speed, open court play, and the ability to slash to the hoop. In the 70s, you are unstoppable. Today, you are a good but old fashioned team facing one built for the modern game.

[Myth_Breaker]

No matter how you want to spin it about how you win the playoffs today, I'm afraid still rebounding and defense - especially rebounding/shotblocking from your bigs - prevails there. The case in point? The one that hurts me personally, but still remains true: the Celtics defeating the Lakers in the 2008 Finals. Now bear in mind that my squad is going to have even bigger advantage over you on the boards/in man-to-man-defense/in stealing the ball than Boston had over LA and you'll know why I'm sure I'm going to win this matchup...

[penbeast0]

Calling it spin doesn't change the truth. And . . . you have one shotblocker, Wilt (ok and Eaton but if he gets 5 minutes a game outside garbage time either Wilt is tiring out or your team will be slower than Oliver Miller in a buffet line). We have Mutombo (#2 all time and probably at least Wilt's equal there at least), McAdoo and Nance (both over 2/game), and better size/athelticism/shotblocking at the three other positions as well. Unless Wilt really did would get 6-8 blocks/game against modern competition, you DONT have a shotblocking advantage. Nor one in man-to-man defense when not facing a postup team. Nice try at spin though, lol.

And keep posting, I'm enjoying the discussion and this kind of teammaking difference is the best part of these competitions.

[Myth_Breaker]

As you certainly know, it's all flexible: in short, Wilt is going to have as many PT as needed to protect the paint against your guys. Add Eaton, who'll not only get minutes at C not belonging to Chamberlain, but also some minutes on the floor co-existing with him (Wilt, who's as versatile as the bigs come with his 16-feet range, this time at PF, with Eaton at C spot), and it secures my advantage on the boards/as to intimidation under the basket. And any time Wilt is on the floor, he's more athletic than all your bigs combined: how about that? But wow at claiming Deke equal shotblocker to Chamberlain for the purposes of this competition: do you really want me to find your own posts admitting otherwise or just sincerely hope this feature doesn't work in new RealGM environment?

Plus good luck with trying to convince the posters that Wilt, Rodman and Billups aren't better defensive combo than Deke, Magic and Wade: not to mention my superior defensive bench...

[penbeast0]

ok, superior defensive bench . . . that would be your top 3 bench players

one time DPOY Alvin Robertson, weak defensive Amare, and slightly above average Marques Johnson
v.
multiple All-D Larry Nance who also happens to be the only non center in the top 10 all-time shotblockers (or for this series four time DPOY Dikembe Mutombo), plus All-NBA defense team members Jack Sikma and Derek Harper?

To go deeper
Eaton is legit but has so little offensive game that he can't play with Rodman and is way too slow to play with Wilt (and again, is a low post defender that doesn't play out of the floor so McAdoo and Nance get constant open looks? NICE), Mel Daniels isn't the shotblocker Eaton is but is an equally impressive low post defender but one who has a solid post game good enough to get him 2 ABA MVPS.

or Vin Baker? nothing special there though not a bad player . . . as your 3rd string PF.

Or are you really talking about the two players who in your original writeup were the 11th/12th men on your bench, Buse and Bell. Buse was one of two ABA guards who were all-D in both ABA and NBA, the other is our bottom of bench guard Brian Taylor . . . only Taylor averaged almost twice Buse's scoring average on 50% shooting with equally high 3 point range. Or Raja Bell, who would be matching up with our swingman, Bobby Dandridge who was not only his equal defensively but also a 20 ppg/50% scorer who starred on two NBA title teams in Milwaukee and Washington.

If I were you, I wouldn't keep bringing up your bench. Your top defenders (Eaton and Buse) are truly weak scorers. Your top scorers (Amare and Marques Johnson) are not particularly good defenders. Either way you are weakened going to the bench whereas the 6-9 players on our roster for the season (Nance, Harper, Sikma, Dandridge) were all close to 20 ppg scorers with NBA all=D team credits and our deep depth (10-12) still contains a 2 time ABA MVP! You have a powerhouse starting five, stick to that.

[Myth_Breaker]

Tell me this all again when championship will be won in this "modern" game by a team not featuring Duncan, Shaq or Garnett: because I have a strong feeling that your theories aren't supported by NBA's reality, which still prefers 2-way impact bigs. Oh, I'm sorry - there was an exception in form of 2004 Pistons. But weren't they based on suffocating defense delivered by Prince, Rasheed and Big Ben, what is complete opposite of your squad's philosophy?

While it couldn't be more misleading to cite example of Yao's Rockets, considering they were eliminated by Jazz team featuring dominant big on their own in Boozer; which next defeated Warriors using - surprise! - size advantage and dominance in the paint... In fact, looking at our lineups I've got the feeling you'll be just as helpless against my guys as Warriors vs. Jazz.

Only Magic is your below average defender? Taking into account we talk about 5-year periods, not just last season, you may easily add LeBron to this list. And unfortunately, some blocks don't make McAdoo good defender out of the sudden - just like steals don't do the same to Baron or AI: Bob remains soft and unfocused in defense. Also remember: we're talking about all-time level, not level of usual league. Looking from this perspective, also Wade is below average defender, and you end up with only Deke to speak of - wanna bet how soon he gets into foul trouble against Wilt? Sorry, but your defense remains arguably the worst in our whole league: it's an achievement on its own you went so far despite this colossal disadvantage, but in the Finals it's going to haunt you, just like it happened to Lakers playing against Celtics.

BTW, not that it changes much, but I assure you that Reggie was quite a good flopper as well.

[Myth_Breaker]

ok, superior defensive bench . . . that would be your top 3 bench players

one time DPOY Alvin Robertson, weak defensive Amare, and slightly above average Marques Johnson
v.
multiple All-D Larry Nance who also happens to be the only non center in the top 10 all-time shotblockers (or for this series four time DPOY Dikembe Mutombo), plus All-NBA defense team members Jack Sikma and Derek Harper?

To go deeper
Eaton is legit but has so little offensive game that he can't play with Rodman and is way too slow to play with Wilt (and again, is a low post defender that doesn't play out of the floor so McAdoo and Nance get constant open looks? NICE), Mel Daniels isn't the shotblocker Eaton is but is an equally impressive low post defender but one who has a solid post game good enough to get him 2 ABA MVPS.

or Vin Baker? nothing special there though not a bad player . . . as your 3rd string PF.

Or are you really talking about the two players who in your original writeup were the 11th/12th men on your bench, Buse and Bell. Buse was one of two ABA guards who were all-D in both ABA and NBA, the other is our bottom of bench guard Brian Taylor . . . only Taylor averaged almost twice Buse's scoring average on 50% shooting with equally high 3 point range. Or Raja Bell, who would be matching up with our swingman, Bobby Dandridge who was not only his equal defensively but also a 20 ppg/50% scorer who starred on two NBA title teams in Milwaukee and Washington.

If I were you, I wouldn't keep bringing up your bench. Your top defenders (Eaton and Buse) are truly weak scorers. Your top scorers (Amare and Marques Johnson) are not particularly good defenders. Either way you are weakened going to the bench whereas the 6-9 players on our roster for the season (Nance, Harper, Sikma, Dandridge) were all close to 20 ppg scorers with NBA all=D team credits and our deep depth (10-12) still contains a 2 time ABA MVP! You have a powerhouse starting five, stick to that.

The whole premise of your post of is flawed. So what if Eaton is defense-oriented player, while Amare or Baker contribute mainly on the offensive end? The point is that my bench as a whole contributes more than yours in defense and - considering limited number of shots available, just like while comparing starting 5s - at least as much in offense!
And why the hell Eaton would be too slow to play next to Wilt? Didn't you notice that we want to play at slower pace than your guys? But wait: going this route, isn't Mutombo much too slow to play in Showtime team, next to Magic, Wade and LeBron?

While:
- Sikma was nominated to exactly ONE All-Defensive Team, just like Wade: nothing to brag about, especially considering we're taking into account 5-year periods here instead of single seasons.
- Buse was nominated to All-Defensive FIRST Team in both NBA and ABA PLUS lead both leagues in assists AND steals! Taylor didn't achieve any of this, remaining despite his supposedly "impressive scoring" much less impactful player.