06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation

[jerrod]

Mo puts Bogut in a position to be blocked

that's the single greatest thing that has ever been said on here

[paul]

Is it at all possible that Bogut hasn't had a chance to completely develop his offensive game because he has been playing with two guards who are chuckers and don't have any interest in feeding the ball into the post?

Maybe he just had an underdeveloped, overrated post game coming from Utah. Of course, we have heard from some posters on here that Mo puts Bogut in a position to be blocked so I bet it is true that our guards have hindered his offensive development.

A statement saying that Mo puts him into a position to get blocked is ridiculous (although from memory I'm not sure it was that simple), however saying that having a chucking guard driven offense in his first 2.5 seasons didn't hinder him is equally ridiculous - we saw clear evidence of that when he quite literally went from being a 12ppg game to a 16ppg guy overnight as the offense moved towards him more, and was able to show us things that many on this board were convinced he didn't have. As discussed many times previously however the fault lies with our previous coaching regimes rather than the players imo, both Mo and Redd are shooting guards and if you let them shoot they very happily will. Would his post game be further refined if he'd received the ball in the post say twice more a game in those first 2.5 seasons, or an extra 350-400 times total in the heat of battle? No question in my mind yes, but like I said I don't think that's the guards fault as much as the coach's.

That's a big part of the reason that it would take an absolutely killer deal for me to endorse trading him - for the first time in his career he's got what appears to be a really solid coaching structure behind him and it appears will have a better team around him, it will be very very interesting to see how he is viewed after a full season under Skiles. Trading him would be the absolute last resort for me, and the #3 pick DEFINITELY isn't going to convince me.

[trwi7]

however saying that having a chucking guard driven offense in his first 2.5 seasons didn't hinder him is equally ridiculous - we saw clear evidence of that when he quite literally went from being a 12ppg game to a 16ppg guy overnight as the offense moved towards him more, and was able to show us things that many on this board were convinced he didn't have.

Again, it's not ridiculous because when he went from being a 12 ppg to a 16 ppg guy overnight he didn't improve his efficiency as much as he needs to.

Before the new year he shot 50.2% from the field and 52.8% from the line. In 2008 he shot 51.7% from the field and 61% from the line.

Again, Mo and Redd aren't stopping from developing a jumper or learning how to shoot free throws.

He still doesn't have a second reliable post move. The only thing he has right now, after his third year is that little flip hook. His jumper completely disappeared from Utah and his free throw shooting is terrible. That is nobody's fault but his own.

[paul]

however saying that having a chucking guard driven offense in his first 2.5 seasons didn't hinder him is equally ridiculous - we saw clear evidence of that when he quite literally went from being a 12ppg game to a 16ppg guy overnight as the offense moved towards him more, and was able to show us things that many on this board were convinced he didn't have.

Again, it's not ridiculous because when he went from being a 12 ppg to a 16 ppg guy overnight he didn't improve his efficiency as much as he needs to.

Before the new year he shot 50.2% from the field and 52.8% from the line. In 2008 he shot 51.7% from the field and 61% from the line.

Again, Mo and Redd aren't stopping from developing a jumper or learning how to shoot free throws.

He still doesn't have a second reliable post move. The only thing he has right now, after his third year is that little flip hook. His jumper completely disappeared from Utah and his free throw shooting is terrible. That is nobody's fault but his own.

Yep I don't disagree with any of that twirl, just as I assume you don't disagree that if he'd received the ball a couple of hundred more times in the post in those first few seasons his post game would be further refined. Perhaps even having that second reliable post move we all want. I'm sure he's practiced the hell out of it, but there's nothing like a game situation to hone your moves.

And your post raises the exact reason so many of us want to keep him so badly, if he can re-find that jumper (the signs were good late last season) and a 10% bump at the line and you've got a hell of a player, quite possibly a 20/10 guy. None of that is guaranteed of course, but wanting to trade that guy for Mayo who may well come in and shoot like crap or have other issues is completely insane imo. Like I said, it seems like people just fall in love with guys going into a draft a couple of weeks beforehand and will give up anything to get them.

[midranger]

Tough to say about Bogut. IMO he looked better playing for the Australian National Team 4 years ago than he did 2 years ago. That had nothing to do with the Bucks' guards. Of course, people then just blamed the Australian guards.

Perhaps it's time for Bogut to take some culpability for his rather mediocre play thus far.

[paulpressey25]

If Bogut were a rookie last season and finished as he did, we'd all be jumping up and down about him as our franchise building block. There is still too much bitter residue left over from the first two years for many of us to put things into perspective.

Bogut is 4-months younger than Brandon Roy by the way.

[trwi7]

If Bogut were a rookie last season and finished as he did,

But he wasn't.

we'd all be jumping up and down about him as our franchise building block. There is still too much bitter residue left over from the first two years for many of us to put things into perspective.

His shooting and rebounding numbers are average to below average across the board. If he was the same age then no, we wouldn't be calling him a franchise building block.

[MilBucksBackOnTop06]

Hey! The Quick Reply is back!!

Talk about a high and then a low.

I love even the rumor that the Bucks are interested in moving up. If they get Mayo I'll be out of this world ecstatic.

Ugh, but the news about Westbrook's disheartening. He either doesn't want to come to Milwaukee or he's got a promise from some team in the top seven. Either way it sucks.

Westbrook and another one of your boys in here, Randolph are not ready for prime time. Especially Randolph. I would take Greene or Alexander over him and Donte is not ready either!

Like I siad, I changed my mind just 4 days ago. I like Mayo. We should move up and try to land him and get some bang for our Bucks or Eric Gordon and launch Redd and Mo in a package with either Yi or Villanueva and get some big things done.

If we land Mayo I say keep Redd if it does not take moving Redd to get him which it might. Make a deal with Miami and move down to #2.

I still think Beasley might even be there for the taking with a little ingenuity...But I might be getting greedy now.

We'll see...You are gonna need a quality backcourt. That is where we need to blow it up. It is that simple...

If the Bulls get Rose we need Mayo or Gordon to rival that. We need a centerpiece who is gonna get this team a new arena and get me and others excited again like the Celtics have seem to have done.

That is the bottom line....Stop blaming Bogut's plight and game on the guards. The NBA is gonna be a guard orientated league very soon! All your stars in this 'New Wave" will be guards!

You all think this is the 70's and the traditional Center. If you ask me I would even look to see I could deal Bogut and get a top flight SF/PF and a pick if we throw in a guy like Mo or Simmons and a 2nd round pick with him.

The Celtics got it done with Kendrick Perkins at Center! But they had great forwards and got it done with good guard play.

You MUST GET A WINNER IN HERE AND A drawing card and some kid who simply and flat out REFUSES TO LOSE!

[MilBucksBackOnTop06]

Mo puts Bogut in a position to be blocked

that's the single greatest thing that has ever been said on here

MO does not throw the entry pass well at all. This might be somewhat accurate but you overestimate Bogut!

Bogut had better come back with an increased arsenal to his game and add a mid range jumper and a hook shot and the ability to consistently command the ball in the post and DRAW FOULS and then be able to his this free throws.

Then he must hustle and get in shape to take on an increased load. Don't come in here hyping a guy if they cannot carry the load. Many times Mo gives the ball to Bogut who then acts like he does not want it!

It works both ways. Like I said, I would not mind moving Bogut and bringing in Roy Hibbert if we can get a mid 1st rounder and a player for him. But I understand if they keep him and go with him.

But I would want a defensive stopper (Hibbert) and bolster the backcourt and the wings. I am not gonna quibble with it.

I like Bogut, but I would rather keep either Yi or Villanueva if you can move Bogut and get more for him Yi and Mo.

But he is an outstanding building block to be sure.

[MilBucksBackOnTop06]

Is it at all possible that Bogut hasn't had a chance to completely develop his offensive game because he has been playing with two guards who are chuckers and don't have any interest in feeding the ball into the post?

If they can't trade up for Mayo (which I assume this argument is about) without giving up Bogut, then don't trade up for Mayo.

I think they could land the #3 pick by offering CV, #8, and #13 (which could be had from Portland for Mo Williams).

YOu could probaly send Mo, Yi, #8 and Gadzuric to the Heat for Haslem, R.Davis, or Mark Blount and the #3.

All Miami is doing is moving down 6 spots.

They get a starting PG and upside PF and a back up Center and still get a good player 5 spots later where they still can get a good player.

Then the Bucks could actually take Mayo or Beasley at #2! It is something to consider although this is a deal I made up and did not consult the trade checker.

I am sure Miami might get better deals then this one for the #2 pick but that is what we could do...

???

Bogut, Beasley, Redd, Villanueva, R.Davis, Haslem, Blount...
Bogut, Mayo, Redd, Villanueva, R.Davis, Haslem, Blount....

And dont stop there...move Redd for more if you can....for a killer SF or PG depending on which of these you like!?

[trwi7]

YOu could probaly send Mo, Yi, #8 and Gadzuric to the Heat for Haslem, R.Davis, or Mark Blount and the #3.

No, I'm 100% sure that will never happen.

[Bernman]

PP, so far this summer, you've turned down Sessions for the 4th overall pick and Bogut for 2nd year player and Western Conference All-Star Brandon Roy.

No offense, but I'm glad Hammond is in charge.

The players making up our horrible team must be pretty great.
This post is great.

Whoever wouldn't trade Bogut for Roy needs a mental evaluation.

I wanna see the post where PP turns down the 4th pick for Sessions.

You'll surely be singing a different tune if Bogut transfers the jumper he's already exhibited elsewhere. Can't wait til the Olympics. In addition to Redd and Team USA, we'll get a chance to observe Bogut more in an alternative environment and analyze if there is any reason he can't duplicate the skills he's showing for Australia, i.e.: jumper, throws, dribble-drive. If he's doing it against Team U.S.A. you can't say it's the competition. I love Brandon Roy, but unless he reaches a M-Jeff or Bean level.....he won't be as valuable as an all-around center who drops near 20 per too. There's nothing insane about PP saying he wouldn't trade Bogut for Roy.

But I can't defend PP's assertion that Sessions is more valuable than the 4th pick.

It does seem there's a trend that PP over-values our current roster. The backlash validates me because it was quite discouraging when PP would denigrate all my trade proposals as unfavorable toward the Bucks.

[REDDzone]

I'd trade Bogut for Roy, but I don't think its THAT much of a no-brainer.

I really like Roy, but do think he is kind of overrated. Top ten potential? I guess I just don't see it. And I probably watched more Blazers games this year than any team besides the Bucks.

[paul]

Tough to say about Bogut. IMO he looked better playing for the Australian National Team 4 years ago than he did 2 years ago. That had nothing to do with the Bucks' guards. Of course, people then just blamed the Australian guards.

Perhaps it's time for Bogut to take some culpability for his rather mediocre play thus far.

In fairness to Bogut, whilst many on here have blamed the guards for his lack of development prior to January this year (again for me if there's any blame it's on the coach's not the guards) I've never actually heard him do it himself. In fact he was the only Buck I remember at any stage this season coming out and saying his performance wasn't good enough and it was up to him to improve it, which he did. I don't think he needs to be told to take responsibility for his own play by guys on a message board.

As far as him 4 years ago compared to now Mid, I'm pretty sure he's carrying about 30-50 pounds more muscle now than he was then, Bogut at 20 would have been eaten alive by most nba centers. I also think most agree that has been the biggest influence on his drop off of shooting range, which we're all praying returns. He's a very big unit now.

Oh and PP your right, if he's gone the whole way in college and just completed his rookie year the entire league would be going crazy about him right now, but that's neither here nor there I guess. People do however seem to forget that bigs most often take longer to develop than guards, often considerably so.

[raferfenix]

I don't think Wichmae was referring to the potential for a Bogut trade----he wrote a few paragraphs detailing what he learned and what he was allowed to say, so why would he only use one sentence to render all of that moot?

Sure, it is possible that something dramatic happened that he isn't allowed to tell us ANYTHING about, to the point of misleading us with his prior predictions. However, I don't think that's nearly as likely as him reading the thread and realizing that he was wrong in his assumption that we would be happy with the coming trade.

Especially considering he quoted and highlighted a post regarding getting top value for Redd in an effort to win now, I think we can rule out trading Bogut for picks. Sorry Sigra, but I bet you'd prefer to have the croation sensation on the team anyways

[Licensed to Il]

I don't think Wichmae was referring to the potential for a Bogut trade----he wrote a few paragraphs detailing what he learned and what he was allowed to say, so why would he only use one sentence to render all of that moot?

Sure, it is possible that something dramatic happened that he isn't allowed to tell us ANYTHING about, to the point of misleading us with his prior predictions. However, I don't think that's nearly as likely as him reading the thread and realizing that he was wrong in his assumption that we would be happy with the coming trade.

Especially considering he quoted and highlighted a post regarding getting top value for Redd in an effort to win now, I think we can rule out trading Bogut for picks. Sorry Sigra, but I bet you'd prefer to have the croation sensation on the team anyways

I agree... this is the most logical assumption. Not saying it is what will transpire, just that having read through all this, rafer's is the most logical explanation.

[paulpressey25]

It does seem there's a trend that PP over-values our current roster. The backlash validates me because it was quite discouraging when PP would denigrate all my trade proposals as unfavorable toward the Bucks.

Bern, I just didn't happen to care for sending Dez and #8 to Phoenix for Diaw and #15. I've liked many of your other trade ideas. That one is a hard sell to most on here IMO.

I don't overvalue our roster. To the contrary. I only value 2.5 guys. The rest can all be moved tomorrow.

Bogut- The guy took a major leap this year. He's a jump shot OR better FT shooting away from a 20/10 guy (he doesn't need to fix both). And unlike Al Jefferson or Zach Randolph or some other faux 20/10 guys, Bogut can actually defend and play team ball. I can't change the fact he's been slow to develop and to some extent physically mature. Nor can I change his "I'm not a prima donna, but I really am a prima donna" personality. But I'm not going to let the frustration over his first two years cloud my opinions on him now.

Sessions- I'd easily trade him for Rose, Beasley, Mayo and maybe, maybe Love. But everyone else after that are total crapshoots. Sure, there will be some guys after slot 4 picked this year that will have better careers than Ramon. I just can't tell you which four or five guys out of picks 4-35 they will be. In the meantime there still is no precedent for a rookie PG to put up those type of assist numbers. At worst IMO Ramon becomes an assist machine type PG like Ennis Whatley was. Not a difference maker but a valuable contributor.

Yi- I don't know what to think here. In November, I watched a guy frustrate the crap out of Dirk and a number of interior players with his good defense. While having some nice offensive moves. I can't tell whether he got tired or whether the league figured him out. But I wouldn't sell him off just yet. This to me could go either way.

Any of those three guys has a shot to be an all-star player. Might not be a huge shot, but it is a shot. And all three guys play critical positions. Two bigs and a PG. Given those factors, I'm not selling low here.

[Wise1]

As good as Roy is, I wouldn't trade Bogut for him. I don't know how much better Roy can get than he already is, but Bogut will probably be an 17-20ppg 10-12rpg 1.5-2.0 bpg center very soon. Defense is the key to winning and Roy does nothing to protect the paint. Bogut for Roy would be an awful move.

[trwi7]

As good as Roy is, I wouldn't trade Bogut for him. I don't know how much better Roy can get than he already is, but Bogut will probably be an 17-20ppg 10-12rpg 1.5-2.0 bpg center very soon. Defense is the key to winning and Roy does nothing to protect the paint. Bogut for Roy would be an awful move.

So you don't know how much better Roy can get when he's only a few months older than Bogut but Bogut will "probably" be a 17-20 ppg, 10-12 rpg, 1.5-2.0 bpg center soon? That's pretty ridiculous.

I'll take the better player and find a rebounder and defender such as Diop, Dampier or Foster.

[ReasonablySober]

When people say:

but Bogut will probably be an 17-20ppg 10-12rpg 1.5-2.0 bpg center very soon.

my first two questions are

Is that FG and FT% going to increase along with that scoring average? How is Bogut going to do next to a PF that actually cares to hit the glass?

The rebounding rate and TS% are both disturbing, particularly if you think that Bogut's destined to be a main piece of a contender.

I've said that if he develops that offensive game he'll be outstanding. With a jumper and a couple reliable post moves I assume that he'll be a more efficient player and not a liability.

But he's had three damn years. What exactly has been stopping him from taking the needed steps to become a better player?