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06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation

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Re: 06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation 

Post#501 » by Bernman » Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:15 am

Wise1 wrote:
Bernman wrote:
Wise1 wrote:That's my take Mike X. Smells like a promise. If you give a promise to an 18 year old guy that claimed that he was "the best player on the floor" after working out with Alexandar and Green, he probably would give less than inspired efforts for teams picking later than his promise. Heck, some guys don't even show up for workouts in similar scenarios, so I won't knock Randolph who at least has shown up for his workouts.


Smells like teen promise.

How bout knocking Randolph for not showing up for LSU during his freshman season.....from anything other than a stat-stuffing standpoint?

Can we say jaded, biased and uninformed opinion. Geez. The guy was a freshman PF in a tough conference that rebounded the ball extremely well and blocked a lot of shots. Say what you want, but you can't take that away from him. It's not like he was the team's point guard. In fact, selfish guard play has been attributed to the few sore spots that the kid has. His guards have been described as shot happy and inconsistent. Randolph's turnovers (less than Lamar Odom's were as a collegiate) have been attributed to his trying to do to much to help his team win. I don't think you can paint this kid as a selfish stat stuffer. His team was awful and as an 18 year old freshman, he was the best player on the floor. Not his fault. I'm sure the Bucks wouldn't mind the kid stuffing the stat sheet with rebounds and blocks in Milwaukee.


The SEC a tough conference?: :lol: The SEC advanced zero teams to the elite eight and only one to the Sweet 16. And only 5 of 12 teams were in position for an auto bid. That's a below average ratio for a mid major conference. The SEC was quite poor last year and is traditionally one of your weaker major conferences.

I can't take away from him that he was a good rebounder?: He was 14th out of 24th among the power forward crop, in per 40 minute pace adjusted rebounding. And who was he fighting on his own team for rebounds? LSU was 276th in college BB in team rebounding percentage with Randolph as one of their two frontcourt players. Clearly he and his teammates must have been outstanding rebounders. His solid, not spectacular raw rebounding total is due in part to his team and himself missing so many shots, LSU's fast pace, a high minute total, and his lack of teammates he needed to fend off. I can't take away what he never had in the first place. Now in the pros he's going to have to dive much further to the basket to be in rebounding position, and fight men with his skinny body.

He can block shots, but that quality is de-emphasized because of his transition to the perimeter.

If he was trying so hard to make his teammates better and help his team win, don't you think he would fall ass backwards into some assists every once in a while? We're talking about a guy who was 14th among the power forward crop in assists, but #4 in percent of team possessions and 5 in turnovers. Those aren't good ratios. Most ballhogs have high assist totals, case in point Stephon Marbury and Fatoine Walker. That tells you how putrid his court vision was. Not having teammates didn't stop Beasley from having high efficiency ratings, PPP, and win scores. Randolph was putrid in nearly every statistical category. He was part of the problem at LSU, not the solution.

Kirby, I know a thousand times more about college basketball than you. Don't call me misinformed. Stats prove you're the one who misinformed on Randolph.
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Re: 06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation 

Post#502 » by paulpressey25 » Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:19 am

We really need this draft night to start......

This board needs a night with a woman..... It's been almost two years since our last trade of any note (Joe Smith for Ruben). We are desperate and stuck in our endless loops.
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Re: 06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation 

Post#503 » by Wise1 » Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:35 am

adamcz wrote:
Wise1 wrote:I'm sure the Bucks wouldn't mind the kid stuffing the stat sheet with rebounds and blocks in Milwaukee.
I agree, but if the rebounds and blocks are likely to transfer over to the NBA, so are the turnovers and missed shots.

Randolph was not a good college player, and most players see a decline in production when they hit the NBA. I wish I could see a list of some players who had atrocious college win scores, but ended up having good NBA win scores down the road.

If we draft Randolph I'll accept it and hope for the best. He's amazingly long, and has the eye hand coordination to play basketball. I'd be a lot happier if we picked a player who produced at the college level though. I want them to develop into an NBA caliber player before Yi retires.


To claim that a guy who is a consensus lottery pick was not a good college player just doesn't make sense. He's projected to be a high pick for a reason. He actually "did" average 16pts, 8.5rebs and 2blocks while shooting 47% as an 18 year old freshman PF on a team that lacked adequate point guard play and overall talent in general. I think it would be more accurate to say that Randolph's "team" was not very good last season. However, good basketball players can be hurt by playing on bad basketball teams. Many people made the same argument for Bogut who struggled mightily his first two years when considering he was the #1 pick in the draft.

Perhaps you put more stock in individual win scores than I do, but I see a player that has physical tools that would allow him to be an excellent role playing defender/rebounder that actually has offensive ability. LSU was an awful team last year. However, I don't think you can blame an 18 year old freshman pf for the team's overall lack of success. In Randolph I see a great talent that played on a team with no real talent outside of their young, unrefined freshman newcomer. Despite it all, rebounding and blocks are effort stats. Without the burdon of being the only real player on the team in Milwaukee, I think Randolph would represent and excellent fit in the Scott Skiles / Hammond mold of long, athletic defensive minded players.
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Re: 06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation 

Post#504 » by El Duderino » Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:49 am

europa wrote:
xTitan wrote:
europa wrote:I'm starting to suspect that the Bucks have Love ranked No. 3 on their draft board behind Rose and Beasley. Just a guess at this time but it's starting to fit.

As far as Alexander, the Bucks definitely like him and he definitely likes the Bucks. Love also would like to play for the Bucks. So if those are the two guys the Bucks really like at this point (and I'm thinking they are with Love first and Alexander second), you have two players who both want to play in Milwaukee. That's a refreshing change after last year's mess with Yi.

I think if there's one team that could take Alexander before the 8th pick it would be the Knicks. His athleticism would definitely fit D'Antoni's up-tempo style of play. I posted earlier that I'd be surprised if the Bucks traded up to get Alexander but I can't rule it out because I've heard enough comments about the Knicks liking him a lot too. Perhaps the Bucks are trying to move into the Top 5 to ensure they'll get one of the two guys they like - Love or Alexander.


I am trying to remember everything Katz said last night ( I like Katz, his sources usually aren't agents like many "insiders")...I think Katz hinted that the Wolves are totally enamored with Love.....that is why he thought Mayo could fall. Bilas said tonight he would not be surprized if Lopez fell to the 7-9 slot because there are questions about his athleticism...I would also throw in his maturity.


I think he should fall farther than that but he probably won't. Somebody will take him because he's big.

A Love-Jefferson combination makes a ton of sense for the T'Wolves. But it's McHale, so who knows what he's going to do? I don't think the Sonics will take Mayo - I don't see Durant and Mayo working well given how both are scorers who need to shoot a lot. But I still think if he was on the board at five the Grizzlies had the pick, they'd have to take him over Bayless or Lopez or anybody else. I don't see superstar in O.J. Mayo's future but I do think he's a safe pick with little potential to bust and I think he'd be a fine fit with Conley and Gay as their PG, SG and SF of the future. It would be a gift for the Knicks if he fell to six.



I'd run to the podium with OJ Mayo's name if i was the GM for Seattle and McHale took Love at three. They don't have have starting quality SG on their roster, i don't see Durant being a SG. Mayo not only would fill a need, he'd provide Seattle with a SG that not only can score, but he passes and defends also. I sure would rather have Mayo at #4 if i'm Seattle than having Bayless try to play PG given how much he likes to dribble and shoot for himself. They do badly need some toughness in the paint, maybe they can find someone to fill that role from their bevy of other draft choices.

As for the Bucks, i've given up trying to guess. So many moves seem at least somewhat realistic and possible between moving up in the draft, moving down, trading the pick in a package for a vet, or drafting a number of different players at #8 depending how the draft falls before our pick. I tend to not believe a word any GM or team puts out there before any draft, honesty serves no positive purpose. For that reason, when reporters are given socalled "inside information", my first reaction generally is to think they've been fed a lie or that a reporter is in most cases just flat out guessing/speculating. I just don't buy that many people outside the Bucks main power brokers, if any, know who exactly the Bucks want most in this draft if they stay a #8 or know who the Bucks have had serious trade talks with.
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Re: 06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation 

Post#505 » by Licensed to Il » Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:52 am

Y'all can argue all week about who the Bucks like better between Alexander and Randolph. Or you can chill and find out Thursday.

I tend to think that the lack of prospects worked out shows that we have a deal in place for a vet.

And I would go so far as to say it is one of: Richard Jeffersen, Shawn Marion, Gerald Wallace, Tashaun Prince....
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Re: 06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation 

Post#506 » by Johnny Newman » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:04 am

DannoMac20 wrote:Thanks for posting CBQ. I also found this interesting...

Small forwards on the market include Richard Jefferson of the New Jersey Nets, Josh Howard of the Dallas Mavericks, Gerald Wallace of the Charlotte Bobcats and Tayshaun Prince of the Detroit Pistons.


But there are stumbling blocks to each deal. The Mavs might not want to send Howard to a rival team. Detroit president Joe Dumars is probably not interested in Diaw. The Nets need contracts that expire by 2010. And it's unclear whether the Suns would be willing to take back Wallace's contract.
Well Simmons and CV expire 09/10 season. Dez expires after this season.
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Re: 06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation 

Post#507 » by LISTEN2JAZZ » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:15 am

[quote='Wise1"]To claim that a guy who is a consensus lottery pick was not a good college player just doesn't make sense.[/quote]It makes perfect sense - he looks good in youtube videos, so the guys who make mock drafts put his name up there. Also, GMs draft guys who weren't good college players all the time - Marvin Williams wasn't a good college player, and he went #2 above Paul. Darko and Bargnani weren't good players in any league, and they went #2 and #1 above Wade/Anthony and above Roy/Aldridge.
He's projected to be a high pick for a reason.
You're right, but being a good college player is not that reason.
He actually "did" average 16pts, 8.5rebs and 2blocks while shooting 47%
Listing only the positive excerpts from his stat line is no different than only listing the negative excerpts from his stat line. 47% is not great for a big man, and those 3 turnovers a game hurt a lot.

However, I don't think you can blame an 18 year old freshman pf for the team's overall lack of success.
I would never do that, but I also wouldn't think that a kid who can't will his NCAA team to wins is going to be able to will an NBA team. If he couldn't produce against inferior athletes, odds aren't great that he's going to get a lot better now that he's going up against Lebron and Carmelo.

I think there are lots of good reasons to like Randolph, namely his length, athelticism, and the glimpses of good ball handling and great shot blocking he's shown. But please don't fabricate reasons, such as him being a good college player. He was bad.
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Re: 06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation 

Post#508 » by El Duderino » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:19 am

Will Perdude wrote:Y'all can argue all week about who the Bucks like better between Alexander and Randolph. Or you can chill and find out Thursday.

I tend to think that the lack of prospects worked out shows that we have a deal in place for a vet.

And I would go so far as to say it is one of: Richard Jeffersen, Shawn Marion, Gerald Wallace, Tashaun Prince....



Maybe we do trade for a vet, but there was a piece in the paper where Hammond complained about his inability to get some of the projected top 8-10 picks in for a workout.

More than any draft i can remember, this year there seems to be more unpredictability around the top 10 picks. Not only does it seem very hard to tell which team will pick which player, there are so many trade rumors floating around most of the teams picking say 1-8 this year.
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Re: 06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation 

Post#509 » by wichmae » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:41 am

just making sure its you I am talking to right now x-titan. I just am trying to be sure man. i know you understand that...
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Re: 06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation 

Post#510 » by xTitan » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:45 am

Which...you are talking to me
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Re: 06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation 

Post#511 » by Wise1 » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:54 am

To Bern's post (the quoting here doesn't always post):

I've never been one to toot my own horn, but I doubt if you know more about "winning basketball" than I do. I've seen a lot more than you Bern and I trust my eye and instincts more than someone's statistical formulas. Doesn't mean I'll always make the right call (some will bring up Gadz :P ) but I don't have a track record for being way off on players. Just last year, I was a BIG critic of Mike Conley and did not want the Bucks to draft him. I thought that he'd be a good player, but not worthy of a top 5 pick. I feel the same way about Eric Gordon this year. Time will tell.

In regards to Randolph as he relates to the Bucks, I think it's a bit simpler than pace adjusted rebound rates and college efficiency scores. Basically, the Bucks need defenders and rebounders. We have a coach that stresses defense and punishes those who do not put forth effort and most importantly don't produce denfensively. Our GM has a track record of favoring players that have size/length/strength/athletic advantages at their respective positions.

The essential question is can Skiles take this 6-11 athletic package and mold him into a solid, role playing defensive small forward for the Milwaukee Bucks despite anything that Randolph and his college team accomplished last year? I say yes. Would Randolph better fit the role of a defensive spark plug and weakside rebounder than a guy like Alexandar....who I do like? Again, I say yes.

With all of the formulas and stats listed above as the crux of your position Bern, one would wonder why the Bucks and others are even bothering to bring Randolph in for a look. If these formulas prove that Randolph is such a bad player, then why are most projecting Randolph to be a lottery pick? At the very least, I see Randolph being a nice defensive role player at small forward. Wouldn't you agree that the best defensive prospect...when all else is equal...is just what this team needs?
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Re: 06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation 

Post#512 » by Wise1 » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:59 am

To Europa's post citing the Queen's link about Randolph:

I'll go back and give it a look and give you my opinion (probably tomorrow).
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Re: 06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation 

Post#513 » by Wise1 » Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:12 am

To Adam's post:

I'm not fabricating anything here Adam. You can say that Randolph was a "bad" college player if you want, but it's all subjective. I see a talented player that tried to do too much on a team that lacked talent and leadership. If you look at the team's success, you can call everyone on the team a bad player if that's your criteria. You can cite Randolph's poor assist to turnover ratio as evidence that he's a bad college player if that's your criteria. You can say that compared to Michael Beasley or certain non-freshman pf's that Randolph was a bad college player. Whatever. I can say that compared to every freshman college pf that had similar talent around him, Randolph was a good college player based on the numbers that he posted in a mid major basketball conference. But we'd be going in circles here based on our own criteria for determining a "good" performance versus a "bad" performance.

My position continues to be that Randolph's skill set will translate well into the defensive role that I envision him having under Skiles' watch as an NBA small forward prospect. He'll ultimately have a much better supporting cast around him and much, much better coaching.
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Re: 06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation 

Post#514 » by bulletrain » Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:37 am

It seems LSU has a trend of producing underahieving athlethic bigs and amazingly they all went pretty high -- Tyrus Thomas, Stromile Swift...

Maybe Randolph will buck the trend? Who knows... :roll:
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Re: 06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation 

Post#515 » by emunney » Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:44 am

I'm not going to quote any stats, but in the game I saw Randolph play, his defense was just ridiculous. Apart from hawking the ball around the rim, he did not seem to know what defense was about. Imagine CV's defense, but regressed 5 years and against college competition. That's pretty much Randolph. Loses track of his man, loses track of the ball. If he was an elite shot blocker, I'd probably be willing to be patient to see if the rest of his defense developed, but he's just pretty good. I'd say there are at least 5 better shot blockers than him in every draft. I can understand the rationale of taking a shot at a guy who's relatively long, athletic and very young, but I don't see what makes him an obviously better prospect than Donte Greene, for example -- a guy who's also young, is far more skilled, and is equally bad defensively. Greene also can shoot, he just did it way too much.
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Re: 06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation 

Post#516 » by wichmae » Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:24 am

Alot of you guys are going to be disappointed come draft night...
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Re: 06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation 

Post#517 » by pasting_monkeys » Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:39 am

wichmae wrote:Alot of you guys are going to be disappointed come draft night...


As long as Bogut stays in a bucks uni, I won't be disappointed. Being an Aussie and a Bogut homer, if Bogey was traded I'd then have to migrate to another teams board and support them, and i don't want to do that, especially if it's Memphis or Minnesota.
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Re: 06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation 

Post#518 » by randy84 » Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:43 am

I agree. All the Randolph haters are going to be crying in their beer.
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Re: 06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation 

Post#519 » by Mike X » Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:44 am

wichmae wrote:Alot of you guys are going to be disappointed come draft night...


Im more concerned with your state of mind Wichmae. Are you disappointed ?
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Re: 06/19 ESPN & DX.com Speculation 

Post#520 » by wichmae » Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:47 am

Becoming frustrated actually.

There is entirely too many smokescreens out there right now and i am assuming its only going to get more convoluted over the next day or two. There will be quite a splash on draft day by some teams and right now I am not sure its going to be us anymore. There were some things that look like they have fallen apart as of late and the others, well just arent appealing. We'll see.

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