Detroit and Atlanta (Josh Smith to Motown)

DowJones · Post #1 » by **DowJones** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:13 pm

This could be an interesting trade if the Pistons are looking to get younger and more athletic.

Atlanta Trades
-Josh Smith (S&T)
-Marvin Williams (S&T)
-Mike Bibby
-2010 1st round pick (No protection)
-2012 1st round pick (lottery protected)

Detroit Trades
-Chauncey Billups
-Tayshaun Prince
-Antonio McDyess
-Filler

This is Atlanta giving up some of its youth and athleticism for some of Detroit's toughness and experience.

-Detroit gets 2 young and athletic players in Josh Smith and Marvin Williams as well as an extra 1st round pick for 2010 and 2012. They also get Mike Bibby, who gives them a good PG to replace Billups and he is also an expiring contract so Stuckey can have 1 more year on the bench to learn the PG position.

-Atlanta gets a better PG to lead their young lineup and they get a SF in Tayshaun Prince that gives them the defense and grit that they lacked last year. They also get Antonio McDyess, a veteran big that can bring a little more toughness to the PF position.

PG: Mike Bibby
SG: Rip Hamilton
SF: Marvin Williams
PF: Josh Smith
C: Rasheed Wallace

PG: Chauncey Billups
SG: Joe Johnson
SF: Tayshaun Prince
PF: Antonio McDyess
C: Al Horford

ATLfan · Post #2 » by **ATLfan** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:14 pm

Why would we give up 2 first round picks along with Josh and Marvin???

DowJones · Post #3 » by **DowJones** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:28 pm

Because the team you currently have is not championship material. It may not even be playoff material in the East next year. In this deal you get a VERY good PG for a few years. Who knows if Bibby will even be on the team this time next year, and if that happens then you are stuck with no PG again. Even if you DO keep Bibby, he is nowhere near what Chauncey Billups is right now. You also get a big upgrade at SF in Prince. Marvin is a nice player but Tayshaun Prince fits the mold for a championship team much better. He is tall, long, a great defender, a good 3-point shooter, and his game works very well in the half-court set, which is what you need from your SF in the playoffs. Marvin Williams is horrible from 3, which really limits the spacing on the court.

Obviously the picks are negotiable though. They are just extra incentive for Detroit to do the deal.

Harry10 · Post #4 » by **Harry10** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:33 pm

Marvin and the picks make the trade ridiculous

JoshB914 · Post #5 » by **JoshB914** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:35 pm

DowJones, I see what you're saying. But if we give up Josh Smith our team will have to wait even longer to have a shot at being championship material. We've been very patient with our young players, it would be dumb to ship a guy like Smith out just when that patience is starting to pay off.

I would love to have Tayshaun though, what a fantastic player he is and he would be a huge upgrade in two areas that we struggle: jump shooting and defense. He would be such an upgrade from Marvin.

DowJones · Post #6 » by **DowJones** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:42 pm

If anything this team is championship material RIGHT NOW. Josh Smith has potential, but I see him as just being a tweener. If you play him at the 3 then who plays the 4 spot in the future and how will Smith adapt to playing more on the perimeter? If you play him at the 4 with Horford at the 5 then you will always be small and undersized, probably too small to ever be a good defensive team.

Not only that but you will continue to have PG questions. Bibby may not be back next year, and even if he is I don't think he is anywhere near the level of Billups. Bibby is really bad on the defensive end as well while Chauncey is a pretty good defensive PG.

I think this trade addresses the immediate needs of your team....experience, toughness, leadership, and outside shooting from the SF position.

evildallas · Post #7 » by **evildallas** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:50 pm

If that happened I would have file a sexual assault charge on Joe Dumars. Essentially 4 1sts to alleviate your buyer's remorse on your PG and get Tayshaun Prince. That's a lot to give up for a short window of success.

Dumars/Law
JJ
Prince/Childress
Horford
McDyess/Pachulia

would be a sure playoff team for 2 years (unless injuries occur) probably without realistic title hopes (weak bench and Chauncey didn't seem to be the same this last playoffs) and then start to fade fast.

At the same time, Detroit gets a brand new title window. They may take a little step back this year, but after that they should be back in the title fray. The 2 future 1st picks (including 1 unprotected one) are an unfair additionally bounty. Without those picks you could argue that it is a fair deal of surrendering the future for the now, but with them in the deal it is a robbery. I wouldn't do the deal as it stands and I would probably pass on it without the picks. I have confidence that Josh Smith will become a superstar. While I have my doubts about Marvin ever reaching that level, I have similar doubts about how much Chauncey has left (more in intensity than skills). He's definitely better than Bibby, but Bibby is just contract filler. I also see McDyess as contract filler running on empty. I really like Tayshaun and wish we could get him, but not enough to give up Josh.

evildallas · Post #8 » by **evildallas** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:17 pm

DowJones wrote:If anything this team is championship material RIGHT NOW. Josh Smith has potential, but I see him as just being a tweener.

Tweener? He's a PF. Not a traditional PF like Charles Oakley, but in the mold of Kevin Garnett just shorter. This would be clear if the team didn't occasionally play him at SF where he hasn't developed the reliability of his 3 to match his willingness to attempt it. Of course, Josh isn't the equal of KG yet, but that should the development model for him. If you don't believe me, rewatch the Atlanta-Boston series again and focus on their matchup.

Marvin is actually more of the tweener. He has the shooting skills to play SF, but isn't as good at the defensive requirements of the position. He has the frame to be a PF in style of a Dirk or Rasheed, just shorter, but isn't there yet because he hasn't developed the 3 point range. Marvin is nowhere near Dirk or Rasheed, but that could be his development model as a PF. As a SF he needs to take his defender down low more to take advantage of his length and he needs to add 3 point range. Defensively I think he'll always be average at the position.

It is true that Al Horford is probably best as a traditional PF and if we get a starting C to replace him then we'd have a log jam at PF. The truth is that centers are a lot harder to find these days and if Horford strengthens this summer then he could be one of the better Cs in the East. He's more of a C than McDyess really is.

Your trade logic (without the picks) is sound for a one time shot at a title run (maybe 2), but I think the resultant team is a few bullets short. If I hadn't watched Chauncey wane in the playoffs, I would probably be more receptive to the deal.

Post #9 » by **HMFFL** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:32 pm

Jason Maxiell is someone I would like to acquire. He and Josh Childress would really spark our bench with some energy and production. It all depends on which direction we want to go and if we want to get older.

DowJones · Post #10 » by **DowJones** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:12 pm

Clearly you guys are higher on Josh Smith than I am. I don't think he is anywhere near a Garnett type of player now and I don't believe he comes close to that in the future. I see him as a true tweener because he will never be the 6-11/7-0 that Garnett is.

Are you forgetting that Billups was hurt during the playoffs? Remember that he went down with a hamstring injury on that flukey play in the Orlando series. That is why his play dropped off. If it were the regular season he wouldn't have been playing.

bstein14 · Post #11 » by **bstein14** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:47 pm

Atlanta throwing in 2 firsts in this trade is rediculous. You can debate the rest.

IMO Smith's trade value should be slightly less than Carmelo's... Dumars reportedly was ready to give up Billup and Prince for Carmelo.

How about this?

SMith agrees to a 6 year $75 million sign and trade ($10 mil starting with 10% increases)

Detroit gets Smith + Bibby

Atlanta gets Billups + Sheed + Maxiell

Atlanta becomes a top 3 team in the east next season...

C:Sheed(36)/Horford(12)
PF:Horford(24)/Maxiell(24)
SF:Williams(36)/Childress(12)
SG:Johnson(36)/Childress(12)
PG:Billups(36)/Law(12)

That's one very solid 8 man rotation... with the best starting backcourt in the NBA.

Harry10 · Post #12 » by **Harry10** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:46 pm

DowJones wrote:Clearly you guys are higher on Josh Smith than I am. I don't think he is anywhere near a Garnett type of player now and I don't believe he comes close to that in the future. I see him as a true tweener because he will never be the 6-11/7-0 that Garnett is.

Are you forgetting that Billups was hurt during the playoffs? Remember that he went down with a hamstring injury on that flukey play in the Orlando series. That is why his play dropped off. If it were the regular season he wouldn't have been playing.

exactly.... Billups age and injury history is a big concern, even Prince would be older than Joe.

D21 · Post #13 » by **D21** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:56 pm

bstein14 wrote:Atlanta throwing in 2 firsts in this trade is rediculous. You can debate the rest.

IMO Smith's trade value should be slightly less than Carmelo's... Dumars reportedly was ready to give up Billup and Prince for Carmelo.
...

Wanted to say exactly the same (if the rumor is right).

DowJones wrote:Clearly you guys are higher on Josh Smith than I am. I don't think he is anywhere near a Garnett type of player now and I don't believe he comes close to that in the future. I see him as a true tweener because he will never be the 6-11/7-0 that Garnett is.
...

OK on his height, even if it would be better to compare their standing reach than their height (b-ball is played with hands), but if you compare the stats, starting with Garnett first year (turning 20 years old this season) and Smith second year (20 years old too), you can see they had similar numbers:

Garnett:

Smith:

Not so far, except Garnett having a better shot selection, but less blocks while playing more than Smith.

Maybe Smith will never be the player Garnett is, but there no reason at this moment to not have any hope.

Skar · Post #14 » by **Skar** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:56 pm

How about we don't be stupid and trade Josh Smith and just pay him his money. Hes our franchise player.

Kobe_not_MJ · Post #15 » by **Kobe_not_MJ** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:39 pm

What sucks for the Hawks is that their owners are terrible and don't have a clue. I'm a Celtics fan and I appreciate the run for our money you guys gave us in the first round (easy for me to say since we ended up winning the title). Just pay Josh Smith, your future is definitely bright. If you keep Smith, I can see you guys being a legit playoff team next year with Bibby running the show for the whole season.

HoopsGuru25 · Post #16 » by **HoopsGuru25** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:15 pm

WTF? There is no one on the Pistons I'd trade Josh for. They have no elite players and 3 of their top 4 are over 30. The Hawks right now have no championship window...however trading a 22 year old asset like Smith for players who are probably going to decline soon is the equivalent of Gasol for Shareef or Ben Wallace for Chandler(even though it wasn't a direct trade). I will just be glad when this is all over with.

Retrovision · Post #17 » by **Retrovision** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:16 pm

If Im Detroit - Where Do I Sign
If Im Atlanta - Where Do I Kill Myself

Gutz · Post #18 » by **Gutz** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:50 pm

Yeah that trade is horrible and very stupid for the hawks. Smoove, Marvin, Bibby and 2 1st round picks for B illups, Prince, Mcdyess, and filler? Are you kidding me? Anyone who thinks that trade is even reasonable doesn't know a thing about basketball. LOL

Post #19 » by **HMFFL** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:16 am

Exactly Hoops.

We need to stay focused, young, and develop our potential stars.

High 5 · Post #20 » by **High 5** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:57 am

We should include Childress + cash while we're at it.