All-Time Fantasy Draft General Talk

[penbeast0]

Oh, also, if you want to start quickly, I'd still suggest waiting until the day after July 4th because a lot of people get caught up in family business over the holiday and you'd get extra skips.

[TMACFORMVP]

Yeah, I'm actually on vacation right now and not coming back until after the July 4th weekend. I likely wouldn't miss it because I've brought my laptop but it'd probably more convinient that way.

I think by the time this competition is over (one more judge!) and we get everything sorted out, it'd come near that date anyways..

[Baller 24]

The only thing holding me back is that I would like to see a conclusion to this 1st and most importantly Im concerned about Draft day which normaly crashes the server. I have NP with starting the draft on Friday. I dont want to be an a hole about draft progress and a rd a day IMHO would be great.

1. 1979-08
2. 2 yr period 100 game min for each player
3. Im looking at a 8 man team right now to help expidite the draft and I think its an added challenge we havent seen before. No playoff teams realy use more than 8 anyway.

I realy want feedback on a 8 or 10 man roster. If we do 10 man then 7,8 and 9,10 will be condensed.
4. Judging will be by the GMs themselves. A simple majority or min # of votes will do.

5. I would like more than 16 teams and would go as high as 32. 24 is a more practical number but call me an optimist and I have to be after my personal struggles.

Those who are interested and want to give me there input please do so. I realy would like to see 32 teams and realy have to pull someone out of left field.

I like this idea Warspite, 8 man team is fine with me, same with the judging. Do you think there should be a post count requirement or something? I'm saying this just so we would have active posters. I also think Friday is a great day to start this thing up, hopefully pen can be apart of this draft to, or at least some kind of mod lol its much easier to PM someone your list. But reserve me a seat and sign me up, I'm down for this. But the tough part is, are we going to find 24 users?

[Myth_Breaker]

Sounds good . . . why not 77-08 since that is after the ABA was eliminated and the league normalized (ie, why 79). . . after all, 78 was the last year the Bullets/Wiz were serious contenders, lol.

3-point shot, of course.

Oh, and 10 man teams with 7/8 and 9/10 being doubled sounds better. Are you going ABBABAAB or are you going to accept the argument that picking early really is a serious advantage and go ABBBBBBB.

ABBABAAB is enough: creating a situation in which GMs would be at disadvantage if winning top picks seems at least counterintuitive.
I also support 10-man rosters.

Pen, did you PM Milkdud and Studcrackers? I've tried to contact them, to no avail.

[Myth_Breaker]

I like this idea Warspite, 8 man team is fine with me,

I disagree: 10 players are minimum to avoid teams being flawed/unbalanced in some regard.

same with the judging. Do you think there should be a post count requirement or something? I'm saying this just so we would have active posters. I also think Friday is a great day to start this thing up, hopefully pen can be apart of this draft to, or at least some kind of mod lol its much easier to PM someone your list. But reserve me a seat and sign me up, I'm down for this. But the tough part is, are we going to find 24 users?

That's why we're going to stop at 16. And how playoffs would look like with 24 teams? Not a very practical idea, especially as we've already observed how hard it is to keep participants active and interested even in smaller, 16-team league.

[penbeast0]

Yes, I did. No answer.

ok, 3 point shot makes sense, ah well, none of the top Bullets left in peak form, sigh.

Oh and as for ABBA . . . we tried it this time, and the results were pretty typical. Of the last 4 teams, the #1,2,3, and 5 picks were left. That's what always happens. If you really thing you have an advantage picking 16th in ABBB draft, how about when you sign up you list if you want to pick early or late and as the names come up, they get their preference. Personally, the only reason I can see to pick late even in ABBB is to see if it is possibly to win with a team that doesn't have a top 10 All-time player, I still think the advantage will be to the people picking early but . . . I could be wrong.

[jeahwe]

Oh and as for ABBA . . . we tried it this time, and the results were pretty typical. Of the last 4 teams, the #1,2,3, and 5 picks were left. That's what always happens. If you really thing you have an advantage picking 16th in ABBB draft, how about when you sign up you list if you want to pick early or late and as the names come up, they get their preference. Personally, the only reason I can see to pick late even in ABBB is to see if it is possibly to win with a team that doesn't have a top 10 All-time player, I still think the advantage will be to the people picking early but . . . I could be wrong.

so why not try that great idea with non all star players draft (or non all NBA first team)? that would eliminate all this problems with teams with GOAT vs teams without GOAT. more equal players = more fun. and we also would see who really have knowledge about basketball

[Warspite]

Yes, I did. No answer.

ok, 3 point shot makes sense, ah well, none of the top Bullets left in peak form, sigh.

Oh and as for ABBA . . . we tried it this time, and the results were pretty typical. Of the last 4 teams, the #1,2,3, and 5 picks were left. That's what always happens. If you really thing you have an advantage picking 16th in ABBB draft, how about when you sign up you list if you want to pick early or late and as the names come up, they get their preference. Personally, the only reason I can see to pick late even in ABBB is to see if it is possibly to win with a team that doesn't have a top 10 All-time player, I still think the advantage will be to the people picking early but . . . I could be wrong.

Lets debunk a couple myths

1. MJ is always a top 3 pick and his teams have only won one series in 7 tries
2. Kareem, Hakeem, Mosses and DRob are sub .500 players in ATLs (I lost in 1st rd with Kareem)

I drafted at 14 and I had a top 3 team with as much talent as the 2 Finalists. My team as well as 3 or 4 others that lost in the 1st rd were good enough to win the whole tourney. In my case I was able to watch players fall to me who I had no right drafting. In fact I had 4 starters who were former 1st rd picks in a 30 team draft. If you look at the present ATL you will see that the playoffs simply were set up for the higher picks to play the lesser. Add in a random playoff tree and things could look soooo differant. Compare my team to Penbeasts and you can say they are about even and yet I had the 14th pick...

Steps I will take to help things

1. We are useing a 2 yr peak instead of 5 and this allows players who are not quite HoF or GOAT caliber to be on par with those that were. Players with career injuries or the flash in pan type players will have more value. This evens the field quite considerably. ex. Walt Bellamy in a 2 yr peak is a top 5 Center. We are not giving any credit to a player for his longevity or accomplishments outside the 2 yr window. No player has more than 2 MVPs or 2 1st team all NBAs. With a 2 yr peak I can think of a player who will be a 1st rd pick who wasnt even elgible in last draft.

2. The judges are the people who actualy did the research and considered these same players on there own draft board. Im not allowing 14yr old posters who have never seen Penny Hardaway play much less West, Wilt or Russell to decide who would win a matchup. Theres no doubt in my mind that the most knowledgable posters about the 1980s will be the GMs who have looked through the players over the previous 2 weeks and have seen video of these players and read stories.

3. I have narrowed the focus and in many cases you will be able to find head to head matchups and dont have to think about MJ vs Oscar and have to filter the rules, styles, coaching, and training. With a post 1979 draft I have elminated Wilt, Oscar, Russel, KAJ (peak) DrJ (peak), West and Pettit. That is half the top 10 GOAT players. The critical need for a top 5 pick is greatly reduced.

[Myth_Breaker]

Yes, I did. No answer.

ok, 3 point shot makes sense, ah well, none of the top Bullets left in peak form, sigh.


You still have Bernard King, not to mention Agent Zero. ;-)

Oh and as for ABBA . . . we tried it this time, and the results were pretty typical. Of the last 4 teams, the #1,2,3, and 5 picks were left. That's what always happens. If you really thing you have an advantage picking 16th in ABBB draft, how about when you sign up you list if you want to pick early or late and as the names come up, they get their preference. Personally, the only reason I can see to pick late even in ABBB is to see if it is possibly to win with a team that doesn't have a top 10 All-time player, I still think the advantage will be to the people picking early but . . . I could be wrong.

1) See Warspite's post.
2) I've never said that starting from #16 gives you advantage. Just that you're not as disadvantaged in such situation as some posters suggest. Personally, I will accept any top pick given to me by fate without complaining. And I would rather say that success in our recent league was more connected with experience in such leagues and effort put into composing writeups than with having top picks - as evidenced by T-Mac United's team with Russell: you won't go anywhere without a proper writeup.

[Myth_Breaker]

Pen, if none of our 2 judges left appears in this thread, how about nominating temporary judge, e.g. tkb?

[penbeast0]

I'll leave it to Baller to decide.

(1) I have a stake in it
(2) I'm leaving for Jamaica in the morning to get married

Wish me luck

Oh, and eliminating roughly half of the top 10 makes having one of the remaining 6 an even bigger advantage, not less. Some people don't like parity, ok, no problem. Some people will pick badly and not make it even with a top pick. But the top 5 picks will be MJ, Shaq, Hakeem, Magic, and Bird and one of those 6 will win if the draft is ABBA.

[Myth_Breaker]

I'll leave it to Baller to decide.

(1) I have a stake in it
(2) I'm leaving for Jamaica in the morning to get married

What? It's great, man! But wouldn't it be simpler to get it done in Las Vegas?

[Warspite]

I'll leave it to Baller to decide.

(1) I have a stake in it
(2) I'm leaving for Jamaica in the morning to get married

Wish me luck

Oh, and eliminating roughly half of the top 10 makes having one of the remaining 6 an even bigger advantage, not less. Some people don't like parity, ok, no problem. Some people will pick badly and not make it even with a top pick. But the top 5 picks will be MJ, Shaq, Hakeem, Magic, and Bird and one of those 6 will win if the draft is ABBA.

Trust me you will have plenty of time to participate. In fact I would say that the palying field is even more level now that your going to have the same ball and chain on you as the rest of us.

Congrats Penbeast


IHMO

One person cant win a series (see 2008 NBA FInals) and it takes the better trio to win. When I compare a team I use the following critera

1. PG-C combo
2. 3pt shooting/slashing
3. rebounding
4. Shotblocking
5. team offense

I have never thought for 1 min that a Wilt or Shaq or Bird could win a series single handedly.
1. Wilt has proven he cant win singlehandedly
2. Shaq must have a top 3 SG to win anything.
3. As for Bird if you look at Bird in allstar games you get a better impression of who he is in an ATL. In most allstar games hes turned into a jump shooter. Birds greatest adv is being a step ahead of most players but in allstar games these players are all 1/2 step faster physicaly and onl;y about 1/2 step slower mentaly. When you can find a SF who is 90% of Bird on offense and better on defense in the 2nd rd I dont see how picking after a GM that takes him is that big of a disadvantage.

IMHO the drafts are won or lost in the 2,3 and 5th rd.

[TrueLAfan]

First and most importantly--big congrats to penbeast0!

I like the idea of using the post-merger NBA. Sad to lose the earlier players, but I think it will make for a better, more interesting draft and league. You could flip it around and have the next ATL be pre-1977. That would be wild.

Especially if you've got 16 teams, any draft that starts out AB is going to be fairly equal...if you're using all the available players. There's a huge swarm of talent at the 15-20 positions...you can make a good case that there's isn't much difference between the #18 player and a #7. The talent dropoff seems to be around #25 or so..which is why having #3 and #30 picks isn't necessarily better than having the #14 and #19 picks. Getting two players in the 10-20 range at that level largely counteracts having a top 5 player. Warspite has it right...I, too, have had several top 5 picks. I've done very well in ATLs--this is only the second time in six leagues I haven't made it to the finals--but I don't think where you pick has a lot to do with how well you do.

But there are problems, too. We'd have to reduce league size pretty significantly using only post-merger players. Just speculating after looking at players, but it looks like the talent dropoff now will be around #15 or so. That means something like a 10-team league. We'd have to have some sort of random selection for first-round byes.

One thing we might want to think about is allowing non All-NBA/All-ABA seasons (use both first and second teams for NBA/first team for ABA) of older players. That would wipe out the elite players...but would allow some intriguing players that were third best at their position for 5 years in their careers to get in. It would require a lot more research and thought among GMs. You could make it even wilder and just eliminate All-NBA first team players...allow second team players/seasons and all the ABA players. Just a thought.

Or you just go whole hog and allow players from any time period...but eliminate all first team ABA/NBA players/seasons, and all second team All-NBA players/seasons after 1988. Make the criteria four seasons instead of five, and this would be terrific. You'd be surprised at how many players you could make eligible for a league like that. Wilt, Kareem, Payton, Hakeem, Stockton...you'd have (a lot, in some cases) fewer seasons to choose from, but they've got 4 terrific seasons where they weren't first team All-NBA. It would be the most challenging, but (IMO) the most interesting. A 16 team league in this format would be fascinating.

One thing I'm sure about...the best ATLs put some sort of reasonable cap on shots. Virtually no team since 1980 has taken 95 shots a game...it's happened 15 times out of 775 teams--2% of the time. None of those teams made it to the Finals or Conference Finals. One team managed to put up 100 shots a game. They went 20-62. The league average last year--and this is during a period of faster, more exciting (at least IMO) play--was 81.5 shots a game. The Showtime Lakers of the mid-80s (1980-86) averaged 90 FGA per game in a very fast paced league. A cap of 85-90 shots per game will force GMs to think about usage and shots taken, and force people to consider what they want (and can get) out of their bench. It will make teams more "real."

[Baller 24]

Warspite I like the 2 year idea, because you can now pick players like LBJ, Wade, Agent 0, Dwight, CP3, Deron, etc. They are all considered all-stars right now (Deron got snubbed) and one of the best of this generation of basketball.

Myth yeah TKB is perfect just give him a PM.

[Myth_Breaker]

First and most importantly--big congrats to penbeast0!

I like the idea of using the post-merger NBA.

Majority already agreed to 1979- version.

But there are problems, too. We'd have to reduce league size pretty significantly using only post-merger players. Just speculating after looking at players, but it looks like the talent dropoff now will be around #15 or so.

So what, if there's 16 teams? Also to my count there's easily at least 20 MVP-caliber players to build your team around.

That means something like a 10-team league. We'd have to have some sort of random selection for first-round byes.

?

One thing I'm sure about...the best ATLs put some sort of reasonable cap on shots. Virtually no team since 1980 has taken 95 shots a game...it's happened 15 times out of 775 teams--2% of the time. None of those teams made it to the Finals or Conference Finals. One team managed to put up 100 shots a game. They went 20-62. The league average last year--and this is during a period of faster, more exciting (at least IMO) play--was 81.5 shots a game. The Showtime Lakers of the mid-80s (1980-86) averaged 90 FGA per game in a very fast paced league. A cap of 85-90 shots per game will force GMs to think about usage and shots taken, and force people to consider what they want (and can get) out of their bench. It will make teams more "real."

I could go on with posting about how unreasonable is to compare All-Time League teams to your usual everyday squads, that in our teams on average percentages will be higher (defense can't focus on stars as it usually happens since almost all our guys are stars), passes more acurate, etc. - what translates into higher number of shots - but I know you'll stick to your dogma anyway. So to everybody else: in the first All-Time League I participated there was a fixed number of shots and results were at least doubtful since judges/co-GMs pretty much didn't take it into account, so GMs who - like me - treated it too seriously, were in disadvantage from the very beginning. So why to bother about calculating needless stats that won't be taken seriously anyway? And deservedly so: there's nothing more UNreal than assuming that teams built in accordance with as different philosophies as Pen's and TLA's should be judged on basis of the same number of shots. Be reasonable about constructing your teams, but don't get hypnotized by some numbers without much bearing for our league - it's at least my advice.

[Baller 24]

So when are we getting the next one together ? I've finished my class for the first session and bored already