Gary Payton vs John Stockton

[JordansBulls]

Gary Payton vs John Stockton, who would you rather have in their prime?

[Fencer reregistered]

When drafting a fantasy historical all-star team, I'd put Payton ahead of Stockton, because slowing the other team down from getting into their offense makes a huge difference in stopping them.

On a real world team, Stockton, because I think he's the kind of QB who inspires his teammates to be better, much more than Payton. (Obviously, both make their teammates better in the same way that any great player being on the court does.)

[tsherkin]

Tough call. Payton was a better defender and rebounder, better scorer...

Stockton was very fundamentally and a much better shooter, great left-handed passer and he was a skilled backscreener. He knew Sloan's offense as well as it could be known, just like Malone.

Very tough call. I tend not to like scoring guards under 6'5 that much but Payton was one of the nastiest defenders in league history and was a nice combo guard who was a very good passer in his own right.

Payton was a weak outside shooter even when they pulled in the three-point line, though, and that's problematic.

I think I end up taking Stockton.

EXTREMELY tough call, though.

[ronnymac2]

Payton.

On defense, Payton was much more of a lockdown defender. Both players were tough, durable, fought through hard screens, quick, and intelligent. But Payton was a better defender and more in your face. He was also superior physically, at around 6'4. He could guard sg's, even big sg's, very effectively. Their steals numbers are fairly similar. Payton was the better rebounder.

On offense, they are among the best floor generals and most efficient scoring pg's ever. Stockton is the better outside and 3-point shooter, though payton was pretty good, especially in the midrange. Payton had that post-up game where he'd shoot the turnaround at the free throw line very effectively. GP could score better around the basket as one of the best post-up guards of his time. He was also a crafty finisher on the drive.

Now, Stockton was better as the pure point guard. His assists numbers are also better than payton's. But Payton has impressive assists numbers, too. In his prime he'd get about 9 asts. per game. And his turnovers were never high either, which is impressive considering he had to shoulder a heavy scoring load and playmaking load.

Overall, I say Payton in his prime was better than stockton. Not by a whole, whole lot, but decisively nevertheless.

[tracey_nice]

Tough call. Payton was a better defender and rebounder, better scorer...

Stockton was very fundamentally and a much better shooter, great left-handed passer and he was a skilled backscreener. He knew Sloan's offense as well as it could be known, just like Malone.

Very tough call. I tend not to like scoring guards under 6'5 that much but Payton was one of the nastiest defenders in league history and was a nice combo guard who was a very good passer in his own right.

Payton was a weak outside shooter even when they pulled in the three-point line, though, and that's problematic.

I think I end up taking Stockton.

EXTREMELY tough call, though.

I'd have to say being the better backscreener put it over the top for me; I am going with Stockton.

[Baller 24]

I'm going to turn sides and go with Payton, his defense was just so strong. He had everything that was needed for a Point Guard. He can score, rebound, pass decently not as good as Stockton but Payton wasn't bad at all IMO.

[tsherkin]

I'd have to say being the better backscreener put it over the top for me; I am going with Stockton.

I love when Utah'd go into the high sidescreen, Malone would screen, Stockton would hand-off and go past, then turn around and screen for Malone, who'd then drive to the rim... dunk, and one. Swish.

Sweet.

[Malinhion]

Honestly these players are so different but give such similar contributions in terms of the game. I think its a matter of stylistic preference or whichever tem you're picking. I'm not going to rehash who's better at what because everyone here has been doing a great job.

For my money, gimme Stockton. He wasn't the lockdown defender that Payton was, but he was a dirty, scrappy player and he's the best ITO of assists/steals in league history. I think Stockton produces offense better than Payton, though both have proved the ability to play with a dominant PF. Stockton was the best at executing the pick'n'roll in the history of basketball, and its the most effective play ever designed. So I'll take that.

[HawaiianJazzFan]

They then talked to the Glove about his matchups with Stock and he spoke with some of the most genuine respect and admiration for a player that I have ever seen -- and this is coming from the biggest trash talker in the league. He mentioned that when he first got in the league, Stockton used to eat his lunch and it really frustrated him. The announcers cut to a clip of Nate McMillan and he said, "Stockton just knew how to get under our skin. Every time we played him, at least one of us (referring to himself and the Glove) would get a technical."

Payton said that early on, even though he knew he was going to get schooled, he loved playing against Stock because he knew it would make him better and his goal was to get to Stock's level. He then talked about how thoughout his career, every offseason he went into the weight room and gym thinking about Stockton and how he was going to get to that level.

I don't know if you remember but Stockton was the only player that Payton never trash talked.

[Malinhion]

Which says a lot. Payton is perhaps the most epic trash-talker in the history of the league. This is a guy that would not stay out of Jordan's ear during the Finals and nothing was off limits--your mom, your sister, your pets, etc.

[GOBlazers]

Payton...
Both made their teams better. But the Glove also made his opponent worse, through both his suffocating defense and nonstop **** talking. Gary took another team out of their offense

[Bank Shot]

I'll go with The Glove. I'm clearly biased because he's my favorite player of all-time but I think you can make a legit argument for him. He was definately a better scorer, rebounder, and defender. What I love about Payton was his versitility on D. Not many PGs now a days can guard 2 guards just as effectively as points. I'm also a sucker for post-up PGs and Gary was one of the best.

I agree with Tsherkin that it's close though. Payton is of course legendary for his trash-talking but Stockton wasn't a slouch in the annoyance department either. The guy definately knew how to stretch the rules. Dirty, dirty player. Payton and Stockton definately knew how to get under your skin.

[dub81]

You can't go wrong with either 1. But Payton is the man, I am biased though. I just love Payton's swagger a style. But You can't go wrong with Stocton either.

[Warspite]

It depends on my team and how effective a big man I have. The better the postup game the more I want Stockton. If Payton isnt in the low block his offense is pretty mediocre. I have never realy been a fan of taking a PG and posting him up in the low post.

I believe that Paytons defensive adv is voided by Stocktons longevity and helath. Payton might be better but Stockton plays twice as many games in his prime.

[TrueLAfan]

Yes, but. Stockton’s peak period was about the same length as Payton’s…maybe a bit less in terms of on court time. After 1997, Stockton was a 28-30 mpg player. A comparison of value is really a comparison of Stockton from 1988-97 to Payton from 1994-2003. It looks like this:

John Stockton
81.6 games per season, 36.2 mpg
2 First Team All-NBA
6 Second Team All-NBA
2 Third Team All-NBA
Team Winning %--.660
MVP Win Shares--.158


Gary Payton
81.4 games per season, 39.1 mpg
2 First Team All-NBA
5 Second Team All-NBA
2 Third Team All-NBA
Team Winning %--.637
MVP Win Shares-- .824

In the four years where their peak periods overlapped, Stockton was better in the first two (1994 and 1995) and Payton was better in the second two (1996 and 1997). There’s not much difference between them in terms of which one rated higher in comparison to each other. I think it’s largely a choice of the type of player you want.

But I also think thatk in general, Gary Payton was considered to be a more valuable player at his peak than Stockton was. The MVP win shares show it, and so does the highest ranking in MVP voting. Stockton peaked at #7; Payton had six years higher than that. Really, I think comparing them depends, as Warspite said, on what you want out of a player…but I also think that Gary Payton was considered the more valuable at his best. So I go with Payton.

[tracey_nice]

^^You didn't include All NBA Defensive teams, or the fact the Payton has a DPOY; I think that should push Payton over the top for most people.

[JordansBulls]

^^You didn't include All NBA Defensive teams, or the fact the Payton has a DPOY; I think that should push Payton over the top for most people.

Stockton has 5 all defensive 2nd teams and is the all time leader in steals and assists.

[TrueLAfan]

^^You didn't include All NBA Defensive teams, or the fact the Payton has a DPOY; I think that should push Payton over the top for most people.

All-NBA and MVP voting take into account both offense and defense; counting All-D teams/voting would be double dipping.

[tracey_nice]

^^But, including that Payton has a DPOY and Stockton doesn't seems like it may have an impact on who was greater in their prime.

[tsherkin]

And TrueLA brings up the cursed argument that always sways my opinion back to Payton...

Damnit.

Incidentally, where'd you get the MVP Win Shares data?