The 2008 Pacer Post-Draft Night Thread

[Scoot McGroot]

It's great to have you back Camaleon!!


Don't be such a stranger!!

[camaleon]

Hey Scoot, how's it going? Nice to hear from you guys and to see the forum is still going strong, and it's especially to see that some of the posters that participated in the Artest debates are still around! A shout out to all you out there!!

I haven't been around since,t o tell the truth I was really disappointed in Larry Bird's handling of the team during the Ron Artest days. As you can recall I wanted Artest gone and many people wanted to get more for him that I thought we could, and in the end keeping Artest cost us... and then Bird made some moves that made the team a non-contender and I tuned out... still a loyal Pacer fan, but the team wasn't one I expected to contend and it didn't.

What am I trying to get at? Most fans only like trades that are decidedly one sided in their team's favor and are unrealistic, and sometimes in trying to get more we shoot ourselves in the foot. Take for example the summer Artest was Defensive Player of the Year... Orlando offered us Tracy McGrady in exchange for Ron Artest and Jonathan Bender. I really liked that idea, but management shot it down, since they were willing to part with Artest but not Bender. Seems like a no brainer now that Bender never amounted to anything and Artest flamed out, but many people were against the move. I liked the fit of having and inside/outside threat of JO and McGrady.

In the end it's not always about who has the better pieces of the puzzle, but how the pieces fit can determine how a team performs, and in the case of last nights trade that brought Rush, it seems to me we got a better fit, but we'll see how it pans out.

Hey, Bender looked like the next Garnett at one point and had he panned out maybe Reggie would have gotten his ring... but having McGrady would have been nice

[Scoot McGroot]

Yeah, that McGrady deal that Orlando wanted was actually Artest, Harrington, Bender, and Tinsley for McGrady and Juwan Howard. At the time, we felt that was way too much to offer, but imagine how much better we would've been and how many less headaches we would've had in the past 4 years or so.

[FreeRon]

Camaleon! What's going on? Yeah I was part of the Artest debate too and I really wanted to keep him. To be honest minus his being a bone head and demanding that trade I would still have liked to have him around. Trading him got us Peja, who got us the exception without which we couldn't have gotten Harrington, who we gave up the 11th pick for and then gave away so we could take on some huge contracts and get Ike, who we used to trade Bayless for Rush. So while we thought we got a great deal for a guy demanding a trade, it set up for the worst series of trades in Pacers history, minus maybe the last one because the jury's still out and will be probably for the next 3-4 years. I think we'd have been better off keeping Artest and making him either play mad or rot on the end of the bench for the remainder of his contract. A buyout obviously would have been dumb because we could just get Peja and let him go at the end of the season if we wanted to do that. Anywho, are you gonna be on the board more often now?

[basketballwacko2]

I am willing to bet the Kings would give us SAR for Tinsley, I keep thinking maybe they would do a Shawne, Murph and JT for Miller and SAR, since they just drafted another big, Jason Thompson to go along with the kid they took last draft Spencer Hawes. Maybe they might be ready to let Brad go, we save a yr on both contracts and get some depth in the front court.

[camaleon]

Hey FreeRon, how've you been??

You are absolutely right about the series of moves following not trading Artest after his DPOY campaign. Then came the series of moves you mention which made no sense plus we acquired Stephen Jackson for Al Harrington who was later brought back. Then the brawl. Then Larry Bird on the cover of SI with Artest just a short while before he quit on the team...

If anything turned me off these past few seasons was seeing how since Larry Bird's arrival and all the hoopla surrounding him he wasn't able to build on a team that went to the Eastern Conference Finals. Let's face it, Reggie spoiled us all with continuous forays deep into the playoffs and Bird let the team implode. I had no confidence in him whatsoever... and the forum stopped being fun... all there was to talk about were arrests, injuries and inconsistent play.

Then came the events of these past few days and it seems that the Pacers will now be an interesting team to talk about once again. There is promise and hopefully a new attitude for the team and, let's face it, for the fan base.

Personally I want to see what these new faces are capable of. Sure there are still a few square pegs, but at least the front office seems to have a plan so let's see where it goes. At least we'll get to talk basketball from now on and not so much about when JO or JT will get injured or how many fouls David Harrison can put up per 48 minutes!

[camaleon]

Yeah, that McGrady deal that Orlando wanted was actually Artest, Harrington, Bender, and Tinsley for McGrady and Juwan Howard. At the time, we felt that was way too much to offer, but imagine how much better we would've been and how many less headaches we would've had in the past 4 years or so.

BTW Scoot that was just one of the many scenarios considered for that McGrady-Artest trade and it was probably the one Magic fans probably liked best since we would have not only sent away our young core, but also taken on Juwon Howard's contract.

In any case, i remember Bender being the pet project/ deal breaker and while Donnie Walsh never confirmed the players involved, but it would seem an Artest and Bender for T-Mac deal would have been plausible had our front office not believed Bender was destined for stardom.

For this trade if you consider that Artest and McGrady both were considered to be equally talented, albeit with a different skill set, the determining factor for Orlando was the compensation to be received as compensation for the added risk in acquiring Artest, his being a headcase and all, and they wanted Bender. If on top of that you try to tack on Howard's contract then at the time the trade is dead, Bender or no Bender.

[Scoot McGroot]

The rumor was the Pacers called the Magic and said, "What's the absolute minimum you'd take back from us" and the answer was all 4 of our young players (which was necessary to make it work financially) and we'd have to take on Juwan Howard. At the time, Tinsley was thought to be one of the up and coming PG's in the league, and we were willing to trade either Artest or Harrington, not both. I agree with you though, I don't think we were willing to trade Bender at all at that point.

[Charcoal Filtered]

Even though I think we could have gotten more out of Portland, you have to like the moves that were made post draft.

We have never had anyone in my time as a Pacer fan that is going to be as exciting at the point as Ford. He is a huge injury risk, but so was JO. If he plays, it will be fun to see. Rasho only has a year left on his deal and Hibbert is a nice project. His game does not seem to work with Obie's system, but there will be a new coach in place when his time to contribute arrives.

With the 11th pick, the right move was either taking Rush or Bayless. Bayless has more value, but his value to the Blazers is off the charts. At the 11th pick, his salary is low for next season. Since next year is Portland's window with cap space, every little bit helps. The short comings in Bayless' game should be minimized playing next to Roy. He is going to play much better next to an All Star that can handle the ball as opposed to was one of the less ideal rotations (Granger or Dunleavy playing out of position, Danials inconsistency, K Rush mediocrity). I would have sqeezed the Blazers for more.

Rush should be a very good player though. If not for his injury history, he would have went higher. With the PG situation solved with Ford, the shooting guard position was in dire need of attention. It will be fun to watch him join our rotation.

Diogu was a bust in Obie's system and he had to be moved. It was nice that the Pacer's were able to accept that he was not going to be a contributor for us to prove the GS trade was not a failure. I would rather have the older Rush back next year to back up his more capable brother, but Jack is better than putting up with Tinsley's antics or Andre Owens.

McRoberts could pan out, but would not hold my breath. After slipping out of the first round, he should have got the message that he is no longer the big man on campus. The feedback recieved from his stint in the Developmental league was not encouraging. He does have great passing skills and hope that something clicks mentally in his return to the Heartland.

Overall, the Pacers were not going to contend for a championship next year. Before the draft, it looked like a team destined to be picking in the low lottery again. Now, we could atleast obtain a lower playoff seed and be a fun team to watch. If Tinsley, Danials, Williams, and Harrison are also not on next years team, I will be happy with my league pass subscription next year.

I am just going to keep earmuffs on the newborn every time JJ enters the game.

[cdash]

Charcoal what forum do you mod? I'm relatively new and was under the impression you were a Portland fan for whatever reason.

[Charcoal Filtered]

I used to moderate both forums and the title should read Former Mod.

Was raised in Indiana and have lived in the Portland Area for nearly eight years.

[camaleon]

With the 11th pick, the right move was either taking Rush or Bayless. Bayless has more value, but his value to the Blazers is off the charts. At the 11th pick, his salary is low for next season. Since next year is Portland's window with cap space, every little bit helps. The short comings in Bayless' game should be minimized playing next to Roy. He is going to play much better next to an All Star that can handle the ball as opposed to was one of the less ideal rotations (Granger or Dunleavy playing out of position, Danials inconsistency, K Rush mediocrity). I would have sqeezed the Blazers for more.

Hey Charc,

I agree with you on your draft evaluation, especially about the rotations and your expectations for this team. The Pacers were on the verge of making the playoffs with a severely depleted roster (it does help that we play in the Eastern Conference) and now we have a pretty solid eight man rotation. Ford and Jack form an interesting combination at the point. Granger, Rush and Dunleavy can split the minutes at SG and SF. While at the 4 and 5 a rotation of Nesterovic, Foster and Murphy can be effective if Hibbert is slow to pick up the newances of the pro game. Include Hibbert and Daniels and a ten man rotation looks healthy.

Our backcourt looks solid to me. What's left to be seen is how O'Brien uses Foster, Murphy, Hibbert and Rasho since their skill sets are quite varied, but I'm guessing playing time will have to do with matchups for them.

This team is intriguing, which is quite surprising during the Larry Bird era...

[Wizop]

after I slept on it, I came to realize that getting Rush instead of Bayless puts us in a positon to move Quis. I think that's part of the plan. Jack gives us an experienced alternative at the point. Bayless is a tweener that is more of a scorer than a playmaker. Rush is also older than Bayliss and therefore fits Bird's plan of getting more mature players. but mostly he's a 2/3 and can take over Quis' minutes. a 1/2 wouldn't have done that. Diogu wasn't in the picture so if Josh earns PT it's a plus.

I was told on draft night that Tinsley will be dealt with one way or another in July. we'll see. if they can move Quis too they'll have succeeded in clearing out every single guy that got in trouble.

[freeman]

I'm in the middle about the Portland trade, i just can't seem to convince myself that it's actually better than keeping Bayless.
I know the rationale behind securing a serviceable back-up in Jack, and a solid, talented guard/forward in Rush. but i really do think Indiana could've demanded for a better package. C'mon, someone other than McRoberts. Indiana can be better this season but Portland is will be outstanding.
Plus, i thought Diogu will benefit from the J.O. trade, but i'm quite sad that he's Portland-bound. All he need is playing time, and with J.O. gone, this is an opportunity. Now we gotta find depth at the pf spot.
Though i really like Bayless over Rush, i think i'll just let Larry and Mr. Simon do their stuff.
They'll be the ones to blame should Bayless develop into a Gilbert Arenas.
Rush is good overall. I agree on the fact that he can help Indiana in so many ways. But he doesn't have that high development ceiling as Bayless'.
Anyways, nothing we can do than to wait til july 9.

[Wizop]

why would Ike benefit from JO being traded when he didn't benefit last year when JO was hurt half the year? I think it's fair to say that he just never did what the coach was looking for him to do. I'll admit I can't tell you whether that was defense or breaking off plays or what even though I attended at least 30 home games last year (a low for me), but without a doubt O'B didn't like what Ike was showing him on the court.

[count55]

Ike wasn't good enough to play. It's as simple as that. His size and his style worked against him, but he was/is just a guy who had some nice skills, but never could figure out how to play within a team. It was true with four different coaches. Now, he's in Portland staring at LaMarcus Aldridge and Channing Frye in line in front of him. He didn't get playing because he didn't earn it. It's likely that the same was going to be true here this year, and will be true in Portland.

If we're going to force feed some minutes to someone (in the frontcourt), I'd much rather it be Shawne.

There's always a chance that I could be wrong about Ike, but it's gotten exceedingly unlikely the longer he's been in the league.

[FreeRon]

I was hyped when we got Ike because Larry was so interested in him...plus getting Jax the heck outta Indy helped. I checked out some of his college clips and he really played like a beast but I don't think he was big enough for the system we tried with Carlisle or quick enough for the system we play with Obie. He's got some talent, I just don't know what position it's at and when he finds it he'll be a dependable backup at best. I've heard from numerous sources that it was a prearranged deal with Portland which is what I suspected when I heard it. I like it though...instead of having an undersized SG in Bayless and an undersized PF/C in Diogu we have a regular sized PG and SG...and if McRoberts takes a single minute away from Troy Murphy he'll have done us a great service.

[glasket]

For some reason I like Ike and thought that in the time he was on the court he was productive.

I wish him all the best in Portland and will be very happy if he succeeds there

[freeman]

I still honestly do think Ike could and maybe would be better. Maybe it was his injuries that's holding him back. He was indeed productive at the start of the season before being sidelined with an injury. Anyways, i'd still love to see him contend for decent playing time in Portland.
And yeah, Larry was once so high on him.

[count55]

Gonna let this drift.