The future of the Sac Kings....

[SacKingZZZ]

^ Good to here. Hopefully your right.

I'm one of the people that were fans of the pick, but I definitely was surprised. Thanks for the good words. Many of us haven't seen him play. All we have seen are scouting reports and youtube clips, but from what Petrie and Theus have said, they are in love with this kid. He was the ''unanimous" decision among those who decided on who the Kings were drafting. He sounds like a really good guy (after interviews I've heard with him) I'm always a fan of that. Hopefully you, Geoff, and Reggie will be right!

No problem, man. The ONLY problem I see in regards to Thompson or any of your young guys is that Reggie might not give them enough chances to get PT. I think if you guys really want to committ to building a strong core, you gotta ship Brad Miller and Artest out and start rebuilding around KMart-Hawes-Thompson. Lets face it, you guys aren't going anywhere especially cuz the contracts of SAR and Thomas are going to hold you back from making any meaningful deals for FA's or Star players. And you guys aren't making the playoffs with KMart-Artest-Thompson-Hawes-Miller anytime soon. So might as well trade Miller and Artest while they're still on contracts and get some assests/picks for them. And build your way through the draft and once SAR and KThomas becoming expirings or expire,then you make a couple of big signing to bring in some legit help.

Until then, give as much PT to Thompson and Hawes and let them develop during games. By the time the big 2010 Off season arrives, you guys would have stocked pile a lot more talent through the next 2 drafts (considering you will get high enough picks thanks to a bad record) and then you go in a full-fledge playoff push. Until then, its no use keeping guys like Artest and Miller on the roster while being out of the playoff picture every year and being a medicre enough team to not make the playoffs and not being bad enough to land a high draft pick.

And yeah, I am RARELY wrong about my draft projections and talent analysis Last year I was shaking my head when Al Thornton slipped all the way to 14 just cuz he was 23 years old. I told people 3 months before the draft that Thornton alongside Horford-Durant-Oden will have the best pro career out of the entire class. And now, Clippers seem to be building around him. I also said that in the long run, Horford would be a better player than Oden and Durant, and I am still sticking to it. The jury's still out on Oden and Durant hasn't really impressed me much.

Out of this year's class, I am ranking the following guys as sure shot studs : Rose, Beasely, Thompson, Mayo and Rush. Whereas players like Hibbert and Augustine are going to have very solid careers. I would have also picked Hickson, but seeing how he'll be playing in Cleveland and will probably be buried on the bench behind wallace, Joe Smith, Z and Sideshow bob, he won't get much PT to make an impact.

Good analysis...let's see if it holds true.

I do have to disagree with the implication that Reggie "might not give" Thompson PT. The philosophy he worked on last year was that PT is earned, not given. And as we saw with Hawes last year, if a guy works his butt off in practice and takes advantage of opportunities he's given during games, he will be rewarded with a bigger role. Thompson will have to earn minutes the same way this next season. From what I've heard about his work ethic and drive, he will earn those minutes.

Eh. That philosophy also finally led the OWNER of the team finally saying "hey PLAY THE YOUNG GUYS!!!". The truth is, as the season progresses there are hardly any practices to "earn" playing time from. Last year was simply about a coach wanting up his win total so that he could come into the offseason proclaiming coaching dominance over the previous regime while utilizing basically the same roster. My gripe was why weren't the Maloofs concerns about the direction made to Theus in private and made very clear earlier? Petrie did say that he will give the coach and idea of who they'd like to see, did he let Theus know? Was Theus stubbornly trying to save his own butt?

[pillwenney]

The only vets on our team are Ron, John, Brad and Mikki. As long as we have all of them, we are trying to win. If we trade Ron, it's not like Brad is going to start playing 24 MPG or something. It's either all, or nothing with them. And the idea that Ron is the only one that wants to win now is silly too.

But the most important thing is that this team will try for the playoffs this year. It has been said many times. If it looks hopeless at the all-star break, I bet Geoff breaks it up, but otherwise, I kind of doubt it. And Ron certainly doesn't seem unhappy right now. He thinks this team can win it all, as ridiculous as it sounds.

[KF10]

The only vets on our team are Ron, John, Brad and Mikki. As long as we have all of them, we are trying to win. If we trade Ron, it's not like Brad is going to start playing 24 MPG or something. It's either all, or nothing with them. And the idea that Ron is the only one that wants to win now is silly too.

But the most important thing is that this team will try for the playoffs this year. It has been said many times. If it looks hopeless at the all-star break, I bet Geoff breaks it up, but otherwise, I kind of doubt it. And Ron certainly doesn't seem unhappy right now. He thinks this team can win it all, as ridiculous as it sounds.

It's funny when he says "We are going to compete for the Championship next year" But honestly, I admire the guy's determination to win in ANY situation. Regardless, of rebuilding or contending team.

[BMiller52]

The only vets on our team are Ron, John, Brad and Mikki. As long as we have all of them, we are trying to win. If we trade Ron, it's not like Brad is going to start playing 24 MPG or something. It's either all, or nothing with them. And the idea that Ron is the only one that wants to win now is silly too.

But the most important thing is that this team will try for the playoffs this year. It has been said many times. If it looks hopeless at the all-star break, I bet Geoff breaks it up, but otherwise, I kind of doubt it. And Ron certainly doesn't seem unhappy right now. He thinks this team can win it all, as ridiculous as it sounds.

Also we'll probably be getting a young PG through trade or FA, and that player will probably be the starter, so they'll be developing and getting better also. Thompson is probably good enough to play a lot right away considering the competition is Mikki. Geoff has already said he wants to accelerate Spencer's growth so I wouldn't be surprised to see Brad be traded. And if Spencer, Thompson, young PG, Cisco, Shelden, Singletary, etc. are all getting minutes what exactly is there to complain about?


With Martin, Spencer, Salmons/Cisco, etc. all on the roster and Reggie being atleast a solid coach(we will learn more as he gets a better roster/develops the young players) I don't think we have the blow it up and tank option really available to us anymore. They're all too good to get a top 5 pick unless we had a bunch of major injuries, and we already had a lot of those this year and we still wound up freaking 12th. I wouldn't be surprised if we lost a vet(either Ron or Brad, probably not both tho) and still wound up 15-20th or so. If we lose both players we're probably picking 10-12/14 area again. And to be honest I'm not really sure the differences in the opportunities presented to teams in the 10-12 area are much different than the opportunities presented in the 14-20 area anyway.

[SacKingZZZ]

The only vets on our team are Ron, John, Brad and Mikki. As long as we have all of them, we are trying to win. If we trade Ron, it's not like Brad is going to start playing 24 MPG or something. It's either all, or nothing with them. And the idea that Ron is the only one that wants to win now is silly too.

But the most important thing is that this team will try for the playoffs this year. It has been said many times. If it looks hopeless at the all-star break, I bet Geoff breaks it up, but otherwise, I kind of doubt it. And Ron certainly doesn't seem unhappy right now. He thinks this team can win it all, as ridiculous as it sounds.

Which can't even be said with a straight face can it? The difference is Brad would understand it's the best thing for the franchise long term and be a team guy.

How many freaking hopeless All-star breaks do we need for craps sake!!! I mean, c'mon, the record is broken already. Ron is still in contract phase. He wants the money but the truth is there, trust me. As I have said before it's just as much the organizations fault if they are telling this is the right situation for him at this point.

[KF10]

I don't really understand some people. The common goal in basketball is to win. We will try to win due to player's determination. Especially, the veterans of the team. Ron, John, Brad, Mikki. They wont just say "Well, we can develop the young at my playing time expense" That is not going to happen. They are professionals that earn their money by playing and winning in basketball. They can be a team guy if they sit out of games if they are truly injured but usually they gut it out and play anyways. i.e. Ron/Brad or the team is bad during a long period of time. But other then that, no way.

But that's assuming that there hasn't been trades among the veterans. Eh, there is a chance that we can hear either Ron or Brad names during the offseason due to the rumors of the trade deadline. Brad was almost been had for expirings/filler. But Otis wanted Garcia to "ease" Miller's long contract as well. Thus it was a stalemate between Otis/Geoff. I would assume that Brad will be traded between now to next year. Artest, we know the situation, so I don't have to explain myself. Well, if those two are not with the roster in opening night, I would expect a significant rebuilding phase. So, if that happens, you can have the young prospect/players play heavy minutes.

But if the roster remain the same. Maybe we sign a player for the MLE or etc. I expect the team to achieve many Ws as possible.

[SacKingZZZ]

I don't really understand some people. The common goal in basketball is to win. We will try to win due to player's determination. Especially, the veterans of the team. Ron, John, Brad, Mikki. They wont just say "Well, we can develop the young at my playing time expense" That is not going to happen. They are professionals that earn their money by playing and winning in basketball. They can be a team guy if they sit out of games if they are truly injured but usually they gut it out and play anyways. i.e. Ron/Brad or the team is bad during a long period of time. But other then that, no way.

But that's assuming that there hasn't been trades among the veterans. Eh, there is a chance that we can hear either Ron or Brad names during the offseason due to the rumors of the trade deadline. Brad was almost been had for expirings/filler. But Otis wanted Garcia to "ease" Miller's long contract as well. Thus it was a stalemate between Otis/Geoff. I would assume that Brad will be traded between now to next year. Artest, we know the situation, so I don't have to explain myself. Well, if those two are not with the roster in opening night, I would expect a significant rebuilding phase. So, if that happens, you can have the young prospect/players play heavy minutes.

But if the roster remain the same. Maybe we sign a player for the MLE or etc. I expect the team to achieve many Ws as possible.

I don't have a problem with the players wanting to win. I have a problem with the guy making the decisions keeping a hopeless situation together when there is a very clear and apparent direction for most of the pieces on the team.

[KF10]

I don't really understand some people. The common goal in basketball is to win. We will try to win due to player's determination. Especially, the veterans of the team. Ron, John, Brad, Mikki. They wont just say "Well, we can develop the young at my playing time expense" That is not going to happen. They are professionals that earn their money by playing and winning in basketball. They can be a team guy if they sit out of games if they are truly injured but usually they gut it out and play anyways. i.e. Ron/Brad or the team is bad during a long period of time. But other then that, no way.

But that's assuming that there hasn't been trades among the veterans. Eh, there is a chance that we can hear either Ron or Brad names during the offseason due to the rumors of the trade deadline. Brad was almost been had for expirings/filler. But Otis wanted Garcia to "ease" Miller's long contract as well. Thus it was a stalemate between Otis/Geoff. I would assume that Brad will be traded between now to next year. Artest, we know the situation, so I don't have to explain myself. Well, if those two are not with the roster in opening night, I would expect a significant rebuilding phase. So, if that happens, you can have the young prospect/players play heavy minutes.

But if the roster remain the same. Maybe we sign a player for the MLE or etc. I expect the team to achieve many Ws as possible.

And as I said, it's mostly the guy who put the situation togethers fault and his job to fix it.

As everyone know, Geoff Petrie is a methodical/patient GM that makes his move with caution. Supposedly, he will have a plan near the future (Within a year or 2) that will make this team significantly better. During the time being, we still have to achieve many Ws as possible and the goal is still the same. Which is to win. Again, people are just being impatient with his methods.

Edit: I just saw your revised post. My post still addresses the same theme.

[pillwenney]

The only vets on our team are Ron, John, Brad and Mikki. As long as we have all of them, we are trying to win. If we trade Ron, it's not like Brad is going to start playing 24 MPG or something. It's either all, or nothing with them. And the idea that Ron is the only one that wants to win now is silly too.

But the most important thing is that this team will try for the playoffs this year. It has been said many times. If it looks hopeless at the all-star break, I bet Geoff breaks it up, but otherwise, I kind of doubt it. And Ron certainly doesn't seem unhappy right now. He thinks this team can win it all, as ridiculous as it sounds.

Which can't even be said with a straight face can it? The difference is Brad would understand it's the best thing for the franchise long term and be a team guy.

How many freaking hopeless All-star breaks do we need for craps sake!!! I mean, c'mon, the record is broken already. Ron is still in contract phase. He wants the money but the truth is there, trust me. As I have said before it's just as much the organizations fault if they are telling this is the right situation for him at this point.

I'll say this much--you do a good job of hiding your subtle bias against Ron.

Implying that Ron wouldn't be a team guy is ridiculous. The team was trying to "win now" all season long until it became basically impossible to make the playoffs. That's how the Maloofs want to do it IMO. The issue was just that we started it before we were mathematically out, and that was what Ron had a problem with. But you continually blow what was basically a passing comment way out of proportion, particularly when you imply stuff like that. Ron isn't stopping this team from getting where it wants to go any more than John, Mikki or Brad. I mean really, do you honestly think Brad would be content with sitting on the bench in the middle of the season and watching our young guys lose games that we would win if he were playing? Do you think he really cares that little about winning?

[Ballings7]

Got to agree, mitch.

[deNIEd]

I agree with Sackingzz.

I have no problem with Ron, Miller, and the veterans wanting to win, in fact, if they don't have that desire then they shouldn't be on the team.

But, I have problems with either Maloofs or with Petrie, for clinging onto this false fantasy of being able to contend with the roster we have now.

Until this issue is addressed, we will never come close to contending again (unless some amazing miracle happens, Thompson = next Duncan, we get the 1st pick with the supposed 13th pick in the draft, K. Mart becomes better than MJ, etc.) Our team has no where near the talent required for a team in the modern NBA to be at the contending level (Boston, LAL, NO...)

I'm hoping, i really hope that I'm wrong, but reality is saying otherwise. If no major changes are made this year, we will once again, be 10th or 11th in the West. With a late lotto pick. With no bright futures whatsoever

[Raptors90102]

I agree with Sackingzz.

I have no problem with Ron, Miller, and the veterans wanting to win, in fact, if they don't have that desire then they shouldn't be on the team.

But, I have problems with either Maloofs or with Petrie, for clinging onto this false fantasy of being able to contend with the roster we have now.

Until this issue is addressed, we will never come close to contending again (unless some amazing miracle happens, Thompson = next Duncan, we get the 1st pick with the supposed 13th pick in the draft, K. Mart becomes better than MJ, etc.) Our team has no where near the talent required for a team in the modern NBA to be at the contending level (Boston, LAL, NO...)

I'm hoping, i really hope that I'm wrong, but reality is saying otherwise. If no major changes are made this year, we will once again, be 10th or 11th in the West. With a late lotto pick. With no bright futures whatsoever

Thats what I said too.. Year in year out the Kings are going to have a mediocre enough record to not make the playoffs and good enough record to be away from a high rank lotto pick. No one (besides Ron) can tell me with a straight face that the Kings will be a playff team this year especially after seeing how competitive the West has become.

The Management needs to make a decision, either stay mediocre or start a quick rebuild via high draft picks.

[Sacramento_King]

Thats what I said too.. Year in year out the Kings are going to have a mediocre enough record to not make the playoffs and good enough record to be away from a high rank lotto pick. No one (besides Ron) can tell me with a straight face that the Kings will be a playff team this year especially after seeing how competitive the West has become.

The Management needs to make a decision, either stay mediocre or start a quick rebuild via high draft picks.

Makes sense to me. Give the team some direction cause right now we are halfway rebuild, halfway first round playoff exit but in either case we are looking at picks between 12 - 16. We lose a few of those meaningless games this year and we have Bayless. We move some vets for picks at the deadline and we may still get Thompson as well. Young guys get more playing time and mature faster. I think most fans would understand a rebuild and be fine with it as long as we had direction.

[pillwenney]

It's not about wanting to contend right now. Nobody thinks we can contend right now except for Ron.

It is, however, about competing right now because no casual fan (the vast majority of every fanbase) wants to watch a team in full rebuild. It's not that the Maloofs are in a fantasy world, it's that they don't want the fans to lose all interest in the team--especially after interest dropped this year even though the team wasn't even that bad!

And sure our team doesn't have adequate talent right now, but we have time. We'll have tons of expiring contracts next year that we can either use in a trade or use to draw in a FA. Before that summer we will have two late lotto selections by Geoff Petrie (probably).

And interestingly enough, if you look at the 4 teams in the conference finals this year, the Spurs were the only team that were built with an exceptionally high draft pick (albeit the Lakers were in a special circumstance with Kobe).

The Celtics and Pistons were both built without top picks. Pierce was a #10 pick (not as high as you seem to want to go) and everything else on both teams was acquired with a later pick or via trade.

I think it all boils down to value and one has to determine if the difference in value between say the #10 pick and the #5 pick really makes up for the difference when you trade Artest, Miller, Salmons etc. for pennies on the dollar, and when you lose money because the fans don't care about the team as much any more.

[deNIEd]

A team really only has two ways of adding talent, draft and free agency.

Spurs built off of the draft. Duncan, Manu, Parker.

Celtics were completely built off the draft. Pierce (drafted), KG (obtained via Al Jefferson, a pick), Allen (obtained via #5).

Pistons the exception.

Lakers, Kobe and Bynum from draft, Gasol a gift from their b****, Memphis.

Throw in the true 4th best team, NO, Paul, West both draft picks. Peja signing. Chandler trade? or signing.

"And sure our team doesn't have adequate talent right now, but we have time. We'll have tons of expiring contracts next year that we can either use in a trade or use to draw in a FA. Before that summer we will have two late lotto selections by Geoff Petrie (probably)." - Mitch

A trade, you can only obtain so much talent, since ultimately the other team has to agree with it. It'd be like trading 1 dollar for 1.25 type of a deal. You win some, you lose some, but in the end, trades are mostly washes. Free agency, you can only sign so many players. With the expirings we have lined up, we will be able to sign 1 max player, and that's about it. I really don't think this team with the addition of 1 max player is still at the contending level.

Regarding trading Artest, Salmons, Miller, well...Miller everyone is just waiting to have him expire. If we resign him, it'd be for cheap and he wouldn't be a vital part of the team. So, why not trade him for expirings and any other incentive? Get the cap space early, but don't necessarily go crazy with it and sign the first thing that comes by. Wait for the perfect moment, but it gives us flexibility and more options, something this team needs. Artest is a tricky one, too early to say, need to know if he is going to opt or not, something we'll know by tonight. Salmons, we signed him for pennies on the dollar, so trade him for whatever profit we can get.

I think it comes down to the idea, (same with my opinion on getting a PG), that we shouldn't be forced into anything. Don't force a trade in getting a PG, or force a trade for Artest/Salmons/Miller. But instead, wait for good opportunities, only difference is, lower the expectations. Don't expect to get a full dollar back for players like Artest/Miller (age, off court problems, history, contracts, etc.) But instead, wait for a deal that will net us 75 cents to the dollar, or a deal that ultimately brings us what we wanted all along (in Miller's case, an expiring contract). Any ideas of keeping Miller to mentor the young bigs should be discarded now, since I'm fairly certain we will be able to bring Ewing in as a coach now.

[pillwenney]

A team really only has two ways of adding talent, draft and free agency.

Spurs built off of the draft. Duncan, Manu, Parker.

Celtics were completely built off the draft. Pierce (drafted), KG (obtained via Al Jefferson, a pick), Allen (obtained via #5).

Pistons the exception.

Lakers, Kobe and Bynum from draft, Gasol a gift from their b****, Memphis.

Throw in the true 4th best team, NO, Paul, West both draft picks. Peja signing. Chandler trade? or signing.

"And sure our team doesn't have adequate talent right now, but we have time. We'll have tons of expiring contracts next year that we can either use in a trade or use to draw in a FA. Before that summer we will have two late lotto selections by Geoff Petrie (probably)." - Mitch

A trade, you can only obtain so much talent, since ultimately the other team has to agree with it. It'd be like trading 1 dollar for 1.25 type of a deal. You win some, you lose some, but in the end, trades are mostly washes. Free agency, you can only sign so many players. With the expirings we have lined up, we will be able to sign 1 max player, and that's about it. I really don't think this team with the addition of 1 max player is still at the contending level.

Regarding trading Artest, Salmons, Miller, well...Miller everyone is just waiting to have him expire. If we resign him, it'd be for cheap and he wouldn't be a vital part of the team. So, why not trade him for expirings and any other incentive? Get the cap space early, but don't necessarily go crazy with it and sign the first thing that comes by. Wait for the perfect moment, but it gives us flexibility and more options, something this team needs. Artest is a tricky one, too early to say, need to know if he is going to opt or not, something we'll know by tonight. Salmons, we signed him for pennies on the dollar, so trade him for whatever profit we can get.

I think it comes down to the idea, (same with my opinion on getting a PG), that we shouldn't be forced into anything. Don't force a trade in getting a PG, or force a trade for Artest/Salmons/Miller. But instead, wait for good opportunities, only difference is, lower the expectations. Don't expect to get a full dollar back for players like Artest/Miller (age, off court problems, history, contracts, etc.) But instead, wait for a deal that will net us 75 cents to the dollar, or a deal that ultimately brings us what we wanted all along (in Miller's case, an expiring contract). Any ideas of keeping Miller to mentor the young bigs should be discarded now, since I'm fairly certain we will be able to bring Ewing in as a coach now.

I'm not talking about building partially through the draft, I'm talking about building with very high draft picks like you suggest. Bynum was a #10 pick, Kobe was #13, Jefferson was #15. If you draft well, you can get players that are essentially worth more than their position, and you don't need to be a terrible team. The only high pick that was used to build Boston was through the Allen trade--but even then, if one more of Boston's picks turns out to be a good player, then you can substitute that player in for that pick. So that's my point--you don't need top 5 picks to build a team. Even New Orleans has Paul, but West was like the 17th or 18th pick IIRC. And as you pointed out, a lot of their other pieces were acquired in other ways.

The Webber trade, the Gasol trade, the Bibby for J-Will trade, the Chandler trade, the Carter trade, the Brandon Roy trade in 06, Butler for Kwame....lopsided trades happen all the time. It's just about striking at the right moment. And one can entirely turn around your franchise. You just need one trade like that to completely change things. And even with a bunch of $1.25 for $1.00 trades, those can help a lot, especially when needs are served.

1 max player (assuming he is worth the pay, or at least close to it) may not immediately bring this team to have contender-level talent, but he'll bring us a hell of a lot closer. And at that point, I think we'll only be a couple of moves away. I mean jesus, it's not like we don't have some very good young talent right now.

Why not trade Brad for "expirings and an 'incentive"? Why do it? If the cap space isn't going to help us, then the expirings sure won't. And that extra incentive isn't very useful.

I think you yourself mentioned how Geoff likes very specific types of players. And I think that's why he doesn't value future 1st rounders a whole lot--he has to really think that somebody that he likes for our team will be available. So that extra asset probably won't be idea for us. Not to mention the fact that a team has to be willing to offer expirings and an incentive for Brad first. That's probably the major hitch in your idea

So because we have a player on a good deal we should trade him? I don't buy that. Most people don't understand what Salmons' value is right now. They don't know that he is capable of being a very good starter in this league.

And I think it comes down to the idea that you shouldn't be forced into anything too--like being forced to trade veteran players so that you can improve your draft pick. I've said it before--I'm not against trading our vets for expirings and young assets, but we can't just look to pick up any young assets, because they won't be useful to us. They have to be the right young assets. And if that deal doesn't come along then we might as well remain competitive. All of our vets seems like good guys to learn from, so if we can't get a good deal for them, then why bother?

[Cruel_Ruin]

I'm not talking about building partially through the draft, I'm talking about building with very high draft picks like you suggest. Bynum was a #10 pick, Kobe was #13, Jefferson was #15. If you draft well, you can get players that are essentially worth more than their position, and you don't need to be a terrible team. The only high pick that was used to build Boston was through the Allen trade--but even then, if one more of Boston's picks turns out to be a good player, then you can substitute that player in for that pick. So that's my point--you don't need top 5 picks to build a team. Even New Orleans has Paul, but West was like the 17th or 18th pick IIRC. And as you pointed out, a lot of their other pieces were acquired in other ways.

The Webber trade, the Gasol trade, the Bibby for J-Will trade, the Chandler trade, the Carter trade, the Brandon Roy trade in 06, Butler for Kwame....lopsided trades happen all the time. It's just about striking at the right moment. And one can entirely turn around your franchise. You just need one trade like that to completely change things. And even with a bunch of $1.25 for $1.00 trades, those can help a lot, especially when needs are served.

1 max player (assuming he is worth the pay, or at least close to it) may not immediately bring this team to have contender-level talent, but he'll bring us a hell of a lot closer. And at that point, I think we'll only be a couple of moves away. I mean jesus, it's not like we don't have some very good young talent right now.

Why not trade Brad for "expirings and an 'incentive"? Why do it? If the cap space isn't going to help us, then the expirings sure won't. And that extra incentive isn't very useful.

I think you yourself mentioned how Geoff likes very specific types of players. And I think that's why he doesn't value future 1st rounders a whole lot--he has to really think that somebody that he likes for our team will be available. So that extra asset probably won't be idea for us. Not to mention the fact that a team has to be willing to offer expirings and an incentive for Brad first. That's probably the major hitch in your idea

So because we have a player on a good deal we should trade him? I don't buy that. Most people don't understand what Salmons' value is right now. They don't know that he is capable of being a very good starter in this league.

And I think it comes down to the idea that you shouldn't be forced into anything too--like being forced to trade veteran players so that you can improve your draft pick. I've said it before--I'm not against trading our vets for expirings and young assets, but we can't just look to pick up any young assets, because they won't be useful to us. They have to be the right young assets. And if that deal doesn't come along then we might as well remain competitive. All of our vets seems like good guys to learn from, so if we can't get a good deal for them, then why bother?

See, it's going to take a bonafide raping type of deal to turn this franchise around. Deals may turn out to be better for you than expected, but to completely reverse your franchise's luck? No, that only happen once in a while. Gasol for Kwame, Bibby for JWill, Caron for Kwame... those deals were nice, but wouldn't instantly give you a franchise player to build around. Webber for Richmond was a top 5 raping of all time. KG for Jefferson took a LOT of circumstance, one of which was Ray Allen for the fifth pick.

When teams trade players that could turn your franchise around, they normally expect high value assets back. And there is no asset valued higher than a high draft pick or a high potential prospect. Brad Miller is not a high value asset, and never will be. Artest is not a high value asset (for various reasons), and his value is highest right now. These are the type of guys that won't net you anything to truly turn your franchise around, nor will they take you to the promised land on their own. On top of that, they will hold you back from getting the REAL high value assets (high draft picks). It's just a fact of the NBA.

Why hold on to them? Especially when Brad is standing directly in the way of our most promising prospect?

[pillwenney]

I'm not talking about building partially through the draft, I'm talking about building with very high draft picks like you suggest. Bynum was a #10 pick, Kobe was #13, Jefferson was #15. If you draft well, you can get players that are essentially worth more than their position, and you don't need to be a terrible team. The only high pick that was used to build Boston was through the Allen trade--but even then, if one more of Boston's picks turns out to be a good player, then you can substitute that player in for that pick. So that's my point--you don't need top 5 picks to build a team. Even New Orleans has Paul, but West was like the 17th or 18th pick IIRC. And as you pointed out, a lot of their other pieces were acquired in other ways.

The Webber trade, the Gasol trade, the Bibby for J-Will trade, the Chandler trade, the Carter trade, the Brandon Roy trade in 06, Butler for Kwame....lopsided trades happen all the time. It's just about striking at the right moment. And one can entirely turn around your franchise. You just need one trade like that to completely change things. And even with a bunch of $1.25 for $1.00 trades, those can help a lot, especially when needs are served.

1 max player (assuming he is worth the pay, or at least close to it) may not immediately bring this team to have contender-level talent, but he'll bring us a hell of a lot closer. And at that point, I think we'll only be a couple of moves away. I mean jesus, it's not like we don't have some very good young talent right now.

Why not trade Brad for "expirings and an 'incentive"? Why do it? If the cap space isn't going to help us, then the expirings sure won't. And that extra incentive isn't very useful.

I think you yourself mentioned how Geoff likes very specific types of players. And I think that's why he doesn't value future 1st rounders a whole lot--he has to really think that somebody that he likes for our team will be available. So that extra asset probably won't be idea for us. Not to mention the fact that a team has to be willing to offer expirings and an incentive for Brad first. That's probably the major hitch in your idea

So because we have a player on a good deal we should trade him? I don't buy that. Most people don't understand what Salmons' value is right now. They don't know that he is capable of being a very good starter in this league.

And I think it comes down to the idea that you shouldn't be forced into anything too--like being forced to trade veteran players so that you can improve your draft pick. I've said it before--I'm not against trading our vets for expirings and young assets, but we can't just look to pick up any young assets, because they won't be useful to us. They have to be the right young assets. And if that deal doesn't come along then we might as well remain competitive. All of our vets seems like good guys to learn from, so if we can't get a good deal for them, then why bother?

See, it's going to take a bonafide raping type of deal to turn this franchise around. Deals may turn out to be better for you than expected, but to completely reverse your franchise's luck? No, that only happen once in a while. Gasol for Kwame, Bibby for JWill, Caron for Kwame... those deals were nice, but wouldn't instantly give you a franchise player to build around. Webber for Richmond was a top 5 raping of all time. KG for Jefferson took a LOT of circumstance, one of which was Ray Allen for the fifth pick.

When teams trade players that could turn your franchise around, they normally expect high value assets back. And there is no asset valued higher than a high draft pick or a high potential prospect. Brad Miller is not a high value asset, and never will be. Artest is not a high value asset (for various reasons), and his value is highest right now. These are the type of guys that won't net you anything to truly turn your franchise around, nor will they take you to the promised land on their own. On top of that, they will hold you back from getting the REAL high value assets (high draft picks). It's just a fact of the NBA.

Why hold on to them? Especially when Brad is standing directly in the way of our most promising prospect?

There are a few true franchise players in the NBA--that is, players that can lead your team to a championship. You have to get extremely lucky to get one--in any way. The best you can do is to just try to build your team as best you can with players that fit next to each other and to constantly try to improve your team.

I'd say every elite team in the league has had at least one extremely lucky transaction except for Boston. You probably are going to need that to happen. Whether it's by Atlanta stupidly taking Marvin Williams over Chris Paul, by lucking out and getting the #1 pick when Duncan is in the draft, having the best perimeter player since Jordan refuse to play for any team but yours, or having an all-star caliber PF fall into your lap (Sheed, Gasol), something spectacular usually has to happen for you. In order for that to happen in the draft, you pretty much have to suck, AND you have to suck at the right time. In order for that to happen via trade, you have to have the right pieces at the right time, and more importantly have a valuable team.

This isn't about getting a franchise player, it's about building a competitive team. Heck, I would argue that Boston didn't really have a true franchise player this year, in some respects.

[deNIEd]

*The new quote is annoying, it keeps all of the old quotes and gets too long/messy*

Mitch - Like Cruel just said, it takes a raping deal to get something done. They may come around once a year, or once every 2-3 years, but I really don't think its worth banking on getting a deal like that. You can't expect to be able to pull of a Gasol for Kwame deal as part of your franchises' rebuilding plan. It just doesn't work out like that, otherwise every team would be amazing.

Because being under the cap is extremely helpful. (About Brad). Look at Seattle and what being under the cap did for them with the Kurt Thomas deal. They were still under the cap, and netted 4 picks. Perhaps if we were under the cap this year, we could make a run at a player like Josh Smith or Jose Calderon. You never know. Its extremely unlikely any team will give a lopsided trade for Miller. Keeping Miller does nothing at all. We have three young bigs, Hawes, Sheldon, Thompson, all who require minutes. Miller will most likely be a little shy of 1/3 of the total minutes for our PF/C rotations. Throw in Moore and you are looking at near 60% of our total rotational minutes. Like you've said, a player like Miller/Artest isn't going to take sitting on the bench very well at all.

I think, it also comes down to the priorities of the team. Currently, its not to win. Currently its to develop our young players, Garcia/Martin/Hawes/Sheldon/Thompson/Singletary/Quincy/Ewing as much as we can, in the shortest time possible.

Say 2 years from now comes along, and a big name FA may possibly look at Sacramento, unless he sees a team that he believes he can win with, he won't be coming unless our young players are developed.

[Cruel_Ruin]

There are a few true franchise players in the NBA--that is, players that can lead your team to a championship. You have to get extremely lucky to get one--in any way. The best you can do is to just try to build your team as best you can with players that fit next to each other and to constantly try to improve your team.

I'd say every elite team in the league has had at least one extremely lucky transaction except for Boston. You probably are going to need that to happen. Whether it's by Atlanta stupidly taking Marvin Williams over Chris Paul, by lucking out and getting the #1 pick when Duncan is in the draft, having the best perimeter player since Jordan refuse to play for any team but yours, or having an all-star caliber PF fall into your lap (Sheed, Gasol), something spectacular usually has to happen for you. In order for that to happen in the draft, you pretty much have to suck, AND you have to suck at the right time. In order for that to happen via trade, you have to have the right pieces at the right time, and more importantly have a valuable team.

This isn't about getting a franchise player, it's about building a competitive team. Heck, I would argue that Boston didn't really have a true franchise player this year, in some respects.

Well, this is what it boils down to isn't it?

1. A High draft pick has more value than Artest and Miller combined
2. A team built around Artest and Miller is no better than a .500 team in the West
3. Since we are rebuilding, Artest and Miller both stand in the way of some future pieces to the next great Kings team

It's a really obvious choice that they should be dealt.