Better Defender: Gary Payton or John Havlicek

[JordansBulls]

Who was the Better Defender: Gary Payton or John Havlicek

[Malinhion]

Ummmm...Payton has a DPoY and the nasty streak to back it up. Not saying Havlicek wasn't great, but he's not in the argument for greatest perimeter defenders of all time like Payton is.

[Baller 24]

I've downloaded a good amount of Russell's Celtics games and I'm going to have to go with Havlicek. He had a combination of size, speed, and was a very smart defender. Payton was great, but from what I've seen Havlicek was a much smarter defender overall. Havlicek focused his game around defense, he combined his running ability and endurance to establish a style of constant movement on offense and defense that frustrated opponents.

[writerman]

Ummmm...Payton has a DPoY and the nasty streak to back it up. Not saying Havlicek wasn't great, but he's not in the argument for greatest perimeter defenders of all time like Payton is.

A judgement made, I'm assuming, by someone who never saw Havlicek other than in old clips.

And, because of that, it's uninformed nonsense.

While perimeter defenses today are generally better than in the past (and conversely, today's interior defenses are really pathetically pansy compared to those in the 60's and 70's) Havlicek was maybe the best man perimeter defender I've ever seen--and ten times the athlete Payton was to boot.

This is how good Havlicek was from what I saw of him; let's say I'm a coach of as team facing peak Jordan and his best Bulls team in the finals. It's just before bedtime the night before the series begins, and I've been sweating blood for days trying to figure out who and how to defense Jordan. Suddenly a genie appears and tells me I can pick any one player in NBA history in his prime to join my team for the series against the Bulls. I don't hesitate--I pick John Havlicek. Then I go to bed and sleep like a baby, because I know if anyone can defense peak Jordan, it's Havlicek.

Payton was good, but he doesn't even cross my mind in making this choice.

[Baller 24]

Ummmm...Payton has a DPoY and the nasty streak to back it up. Not saying Havlicek wasn't great, but he's not in the argument for greatest perimeter defenders of all time like Payton is.

A judgement made, I'm assuming, by someone who never saw Havlicek other than in old clips.

And, because of that, it's uninformed nonsense.

While perimeter defenses today are generally better than in the past (and conversely, today's interior defenses are really pathetically pansy compared to those in the 60's and 70's) Havlicek was maybe the best man perimeter defender I've ever seen--and ten times the athlete Payton was to boot.

This is how good Havlicek was from what I saw of him; let's say I'm a coach of as team facing peak Jordan and his best Bulls team in the finals. It's just before bedtime the night before the series begins, and I've been sweating blood for days trying to figure out who and how to defense Jordan. Suddenly a genie appears and tells me I can pick any one player in NBA history in his prime to join my team for the series against the Bulls. I don't hesitate--I pick John Havlicek. Then I go to bed and sleep like a baby, because I know if anyone can defense peak Jordan, it's Havlicek.

Payton was good, but he doesn't even cross my mind in making this choice.

Yeah he was just a beast, very underrated in terms of defense, Havlicek and Bird IMO come to mind when you talk about underrated defenders.

[Malinhion]

Indeed I have only seen clips of Havlicek. But I don't know about touting him as the best perimeter defender of all-time. Nor do I know if he really had the mental impact on his opponent that Payton did.

As far as your "Jordan-stopper" argument, look at the 1996 Finals. Payton was begging George Karl to check Jordan the whole series. Once he finally let him do it in games 5 and 6, Payton was spectacular on D. But by then it was too late.

[writerman]

Indeed I have only seen clips of Havlicek. But I don't know about touting him as the best perimeter defender of all-time. Nor do I know if he really had the mental impact on his opponent that Payton did.

As far as your "Jordan-stopper" argument, look at the 1996 Finals. Payton was begging George Karl to check Jordan the whole series. Once he finally let him do it in games 5 and 6, Payton was spectacular on D. But by then it was too late.

!!!Read the Bio!!!

http://www.nba.com/history/players/havlicek_bio.html

Your argument about Payton having more impact--not to be nasty--is ludicrous. Havlicek was NBA all-defense 1st or 2nd team for eight straight years; a finals MVP; a key member of 8 (!!!eight!!!) NBA championship teams, and a 13-time allstar. He weas damned near as dangerous on the offensive end as on the defensive end; his early role with the Celts was not only as a lock-down defender, but the guy they brougght off the bench for instant offense. It's true he doesn't have a DPOY, but that's for the same reason Wilt or Bill Russell don't own the NBA career record for blocks--record keeping for blocks disn't start until after thewir careers were over. Similarly, the DPOY award only began in the 1982-83 season.

In HS he was an all-state star in 3 sports. In college, he teamed with Jerry Lucas to take Ohio State to three NCAA finals and one NCAA title. After college before he went to the NBA, he tried out for the Clevelend Browns as a reciever, even though he hadn't played football since high school. These weren't today's mediocre to pathetic Browns--these were the great Browns of Jim Brown, Frank Ryan, and Lou Groza, a team that was in the NFL title hunt every year. He was their last cut, beat out by a guy who turned out to be a an all pro for a number of years. Purely as an athlete he blows Payton away.

Yeah--this is a guy who didn't have Payton's impact...

[tracey_nice]

^^Um, he said mental impact...And, almost everything you mentioned above is irrelevant, regarding whether or not Havlicek was a better defender then Payton. I'd take Payton, without hesitation, defensively, the only pg that I might take over Payton defensively, in his prime, is Walt Frazier.

[tsherkin]

Payton made 9 straight All-Defensive First Teams and won a DPOY (the award didn't exist in Hondo's time, of course, though he still wouldn't have won it). And he won it right around the primes of Mutombo, Dream, Admiral and as Mourning rose to prominence.

He made those teams as a guard in the Jordan era (who himself made 9 All-Defensive First Teams, (mostly straight if you account for his time off and only playing 17 games in 94-95). So one guard slot was locked up every year, leaving Payton to fight with Stockton, Latrell Sprewell, Mookie Blaylock, Nate McMillan, Eddie Jones, Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant... and even Doug Christie and Bruce Bowen.

That's a lot of pretty fine defensive competition that Payton dominated consistently every year... and of course he peaked defensively in '96 in a year where Dream, D-Rob, the Worm and MJ were all on All-Defensive Teams (all but Dream 1st Teamers). Pippen, too.

Ewing was still 4th in the league in defensive win shares (and 5th in DRTG) that year, Kemp was 2nd, that's a pretty fine year of defensive competition.

Payton was a big guard, pretty quick and extremely strong, who used his hands very well and he was recognized consistently as among the 5 best defenders in the league during one of the most dominant and physical periods of physical defense, both inside and out.

I think Hondo's pretty close to Payton, but not better than him and not quite on the same level.

So, strictly from a defensive standpoint, I am inclined to take Payton here, though it is by a small margin.

[Jordan23Forever]

As far as your "Jordan-stopper" argument, look at the 1996 Finals. Payton was begging George Karl to check Jordan the whole series. Once he finally let him do it in games 5 and 6, Payton was spectacular on D. But by then it was too late.

Payton had little to do with Jordan's poor shooting in that series, as anyone who actually watched the series can attest to. Jordan was clanking open looks all series. He was getting the shots he wanted against Payton and everyone else.

Anyhow, on topic, it's tough. Havlicek made 5 defensive first teams and 3 defensive second teams and the defensive teams weren't even instituted until his 7th year in the league. You can probably tack on at least another 3 D-team selections based on that.

I'd say that Payton gets the edge for peak defensive impact while Havlicek gets the nod for consistency and sustained effort at a similar, if slightly lower, level.

[Rerisen]

Payton had little to do with Jordan's poor shooting in that series, as anyone who actually watched the series can attest to. Jordan was clanking open looks all series. He was getting the shots he wanted against Payton and everyone else.

Just the other day I happened upon this game from the following season where Seattle was shutting down, I mean not shutting down, MJ some more. Poor Gary is only featured in about 7 or 8 possessions, not that it mattered.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KdNuTG1ARzo

[ronnymac2]

This is tough. Both of them are in the top tier of defensive players for their position. Whether GP was the one able to slow down mj in the 96 finals, or whether he wasn't responsible for it doesn't hold too much weight for me. I'm a big believer in a truly great offensive player being able to score against any great defensive player. I do think Payton did as good as job as anybody against jordan though (again, thats not great, but still a positive for GP.). The talk about Hondo being able to effectively guard superscoring wings like jordan is irrellevant to me, too. There's no way Hondo makes the nightmare of jordan dissappear. These guys shouldn't be judged on how they guard (or could have guarded) one specific player, especially not jordan. That's unfair to both of them.

Hondo would do as good a job as anybody against the ray/reggie/rip type of player. Throughtout the course of a game, Hondo would be able to fight through screens and contest their shots. His competence for their ability to maneuver certain ways on a given possession (given insight by his own abiliity and instinct on the offensive end) would help him out, too. Plus he was smart enough to be able to do that while being able to play help d and double on bigs, thus negating an important effect of a swingmen who uses off the ball movement. You could count on Hondo as a good fastbreak defender. He could guard the 2 or the 3, and sometimes pg's, too. Very versatile. Could defend them in the post, on the perimeter, etc. He was a good rebounder. Elliot Kalb did a calculation of Hondo's career steals totals. It was speculative, though logical and reasonable, but he said Hondo would probably be either 1 or 2 on the all time steals list. Basically, he was a ball hawk. lol

Now Payton. Was very versatile for a pg. GP could slow down the rhythm of an offense by pressuring the opposing point guard anywhere on the court; full court, post area, perimeter, or right as they got the ball into the frontcourt. He was a great full-court defender. He was also good on the fastbreak. he had the speed to stay with players, then the hands to strip them of the ball as they went up. His ball denial was excellent. He was an above average defensive rebounder for his position. And of course, a ball hawk. Great at getting steals anywhere on the court. Had great hands and length. He could double down into the post, disrupt passing lanes, and play great team d. Of course, there's his man to man d. He could slow players down in the post. He could slow them down on the perimeter, too. He'd get right up on them, hit them with his chest, and be physical. I used to watch him just play d, and he was always aware of where his man was in relation to the ball. Probably the smartest overall perimeter defender of my generation (With pippen and maybe a few others). And then there's his attitude, trash-talking, and ability to get in the opponents's head.

I don't know. I might take Payton because I like his style. He treats defense like most players treat offense; he trash talks you that you can't score on him. I like that. Anytime I play basketball, I try to play defense like GP; from the stance, to getting up into the opponent, to his off the ball reads of where the ball is in relation to the guy i'm guarding and the basket. But not taking my preferred bias for style into account, it's a bit too close to call for me.

[TheSheriff]

Ummmm...Payton has a DPoY and the nasty streak to back it up. Not saying Havlicek wasn't great, but he's not in the argument for greatest perimeter defenders of all time like Payton is.

The DPoY wasn't around when Hondo was playing. If it was he almost certainly would have won it at least once, if not multiple times (though Russell would have owned the award early in Hondo's career).

[writerman]

Havlicek at a "slightly lower level" than Payton?

Hell, Payton wasn't even the top defensive guard of his era. He's a great defender, but not on the level of not only Hondo, but some other past stars, like Sidney Moncrief, for example.

What an insult to Havlicek.

What people are missing here--and they talk about Payton's trash-talking expertise like that was a big effing deal--and overlook the fact of Havlicek's absolutely incredible stamina. Havlicek was not only quick--hands, feet, the whole deal--he was tireless, possessed of almost superhuman endurance. This was a guy who could run, run, run a whole game at both ends of the floor (and remember, the game was much faster then) step off the floor and his heart rate would be that of a normally fit man at rest. He had cardio-pulmonary capacity far greater than even other top athletes.

Even a Michael Jordan would be dog tired late in the game with Havlicek guarding him.

There was just no-one like Havlicek in thestamina department. No-one. That and his quickness made him head and shoulders better than anyone else. Moncrief was close, but no cigar. Only Fraziercomes raelly close, but with a totally different style.

Payton fits the flashy style that appeals to today's fans, and he was good. There was nothing flashy asbout Hondo. He just ran you into the ground. There's really no-one around today like him to make a comparison.

[Malinhion]

Right, because lockdown defense is so "flashy."

You have good insights on a lot of stuff, writerman, but if you could keep the same hackneyed cliches about the modern NBA and its fans to a minimum, I think people would appreciate your opinions more.

[tsherkin]

Havlicek at a "slightly lower level" than Payton?

Hell, Payton wasn't even the top defensive guard of his era. He's a great defender, but not on the level of not only Hondo, but some other past stars, like Sidney Moncrief, for example.

What? Who was better during Payton's era? Payton was drafted in 1990; the only non-centers to win the DPOY since that time have been Dennis Rodman (90-91, when Payton was a rookie), Ron Artest and Kevin Garnett (who's a F/C anyway).

Payton was on the All-Defensive First Team for 9 consecutive seasons. That's a pretty clear indication that you're wrong. Jordan was a very, very good defender but he wasn't as good man-on as Payton. Similar, but his value was more as a help defender (rotationally and stalking the lane for steals to key the break). Jordan was, of course, elite as a man defender but Payton was definitely the best defensive guard of his time (remember, Jordan had aged some by the time Payton hit his defensive stride, starting in 93-94... when Jordan wasn't even in the league).

MJ only played 3 years and 17 games alongside Payton, all on the wrong side of 30.

Kobe, Kidd, Eddie Jones, none of those guys were Payton's equal as a defensive guard.

I don't mean to be rude but you are definitely incorrect in your assessment that Payton wasn't even the best defensive guard of his era; very clearly and badly wrong.

Payton fits the flashy style that appeals to today's fans, and he was good. There was nothing flashy asbout Hondo. He just ran you into the ground. There's really no-one around today like him to make a comparison.

This makes no sense; flash had nothing to do with Payton. He was a post-up guard who shot ugly wrong-handed layups and flat-footed jumpers, who pounded you with size and strength. Defensively (and there's nothing flashy about man defense), he got up in your grill in a classic defensive stance and got in your business, hands and feet constantly moving, jaw flapping.

But his trash talk wasn't the big thing, he was an excellent defender and while you can talk all day about Hondo's stamina, which was excellent, that doesn't actually translate directly to defensive efficacy. Yes, he was a great defender, one of the best, but Payton locked people down all night long while doing the same kind of scoring and more passing than Hondo did. This is a guy who was top-10 in MVP voting for 7 straight years and 8 in 9.

But even just focusing solely on defense, Payton's was just that nasty. Better than Hondo's.

Not by a gap so large as to render Hondo unmanned by comparison, but enough so to establish Payton as better. You're wrapped up in Hondo's stamina, which is fine, but Payton had outstanding stamina as well; strength, speed and stamina to go with his defensive skills that were so highly lauded by his peers and the writers of the era, etc.

[writerman]

Havlicek at a "slightly lower level" than Payton?

Hell, Payton wasn't even the top defensive guard of his era. He's a great defender, but not on the level of not only Hondo, but some other past stars, like Sidney Moncrief, for example.

What? Who was better during Payton's era? Payton was drafted in 1990; the only non-centers to win the DPOY since that time have been Dennis Rodman (90-91, when Payton was a rookie), Ron Artest and Kevin Garnett (who's a F/C anyway).

Payton was on the All-Defensive First Team for 9 consecutive seasons. That's a pretty clear indication that you're wrong. Jordan was a very, very good defender but he wasn't as good man-on as Payton. Similar, but his value was more as a help defender (rotationally and stalking the lane for steals to key the break). Jordan was, of course, elite as a man defender but Payton was definitely the best defensive guard of his time (remember, Jordan had aged some by the time Payton hit his defensive stride, starting in 93-94... when Jordan wasn't even in the league).

MJ only played 3 years and 17 games alongside Payton, all on the wrong side of 30.

Kobe, Kidd, Eddie Jones, none of those guys were Payton's equal as a defensive guard.

I don't mean to be rude but you are definitely incorrect in your assessment that Payton wasn't even the best defensive guard of his era; very clearly and badly wrong.

Payton fits the flashy style that appeals to today's fans, and he was good. There was nothing flashy asbout Hondo. He just ran you into the ground. There's really no-one around today like him to make a comparison.

This makes no sense; flash had nothing to do with Payton. He was a post-up guard who shot ugly wrong-handed layups and flat-footed jumpers, who pounded you with size and strength. Defensively (and there's nothing flashy about man defense), he got up in your grill in a classic defensive stance and got in your business, hands and feet constantly moving, jaw flapping.

But his trash talk wasn't the big thing, he was an excellent defender and while you can talk all day about Hondo's stamina, which was excellent, that doesn't actually translate directly to defensive efficacy. Yes, he was a great defender, one of the best, but Payton locked people down all night long while doing the same kind of scoring and more passing than Hondo did. This is a guy who was top-10 in MVP voting for 7 straight years and 8 in 9.

But even just focusing solely on defense, Payton's was just that nasty. Better than Hondo's.

Not by a gap so large as to render Hondo unmanned by comparison, but enough so to establish Payton as better. You're wrapped up in Hondo's stamina, which is fine, but Payton had outstanding stamina as well; strength, speed and stamina to go with his defensive skills that were so highly lauded by his peers and the writers of the era, etc.

Well, I seldom disagree with you totally about anything. But about this, I think you are just plain wrong.

Better passer? As I know you are aware, it was much harder to get credit for an assist in Havlicek's era than Payton's. Given that fact, the difference in their apg is not that great, and adjusted Havlicek might even have a better apg stat. Given the different paces of the game, there's not really that significant a difference between their FG% either (Hondo'scareer % was dragged down by his first few years--later in his career he shot roughly as wellasPayton, and Hondo was the better foul shooter and rebounder, though to be fair to Payton there were more rebounds to get in Havlicek's era.

But Payton's stamina doesn't compare to Havlicek's, and Havlicek IMO was a significantly better man defender and help defender.

When I said IMO Payton wasn't the best defensive PG of his era--I rank Jason Kidd as better, even though he lacks the DPOY.

Another thing--when Payton went whoring after a ring--which he thought would be a sure thing with the Lakers--even allowing for his being over the hill, he looked crappy. Compares very badly with Havlicek at the end of his career. Payton never carried his team anywhere theway Hondo did the post-Russell Celts.

I repeat: if I can pick any player in NBA history to guard a Kobe or a Jordan, I pick Havlicek without a second thought. If told I can't have him and I have to pick anyone else, I pick Moncreif or Frazier. If I have to pick a modern, I pick Kidd. Payton doesn't even cross my mind.

[tsherkin]

Well, I seldom disagree with you totally about anything. But about this, I think you are just plain wrong.

Better passer? As I know you are aware, it was much harder to get credit for an assist in Havlicek's era than Payton's. Given that fact, the difference in their apg is not that great, and adjusted Havlicek might even have a better apg stat. Given the different paces of the game, there's not really that significant a difference between their FG% either (Hondo'scareer % was dragged down by his first few years--later in his career he shot roughly as wellasPayton, and Hondo was the better foul shooter and rebounder, though to be fair to Payton there were more rebounds to get in Havlicek's era.

Semantics, writerman; I said "more passing," not "better passer." More by volume; he was the point guard for his team, it was a stamina comment, not a discussion of comparative skill. Payton passed in a way passably similar to Marbury... repetition. Instead of dribble-penetration, he tended to use the post-up situations to help his playmaking.

But Payton's stamina doesn't compare to Havlicek's, and Havlicek IMO was a significantly better man defender and help defender.

Definitely wrong about the last two; the first one is probably right but my point was not that Payton had greater stamina but that his stamina was considerable enough to make the point not that significant.

When I said IMO Payton wasn't the best defensive PG of his era--I rank Jason Kidd as better, even though he lacks the DPOY.

That's not accurate; Kidd was a very good defender, sure, but not as good as Payton... and he's also a half-decade younger. By the time Kidd hit the league (94-95), Payton was in 5th year in the league... and was voted onto his second consecutive All-Defensive First Team.

Kidd didn't make his first Defensive Team (1st Team) until the lockout year.

So no, you are absolutely incorrect; common perception was that Payton was better; Kidd didn't even make the first team until the 4th-last year Payton made the team... and still didn't knock Payton off the list. And then there's that DPOY.

Another thing--when Payton went whoring after a ring--which he thought would be a sure thing with the Lakers--even allowing for his being over the hill, he looked crappy. Compares very badly with Havlicek at the end of his career. Payton never carried his team anywhere theway Hondo did the post-Russell Celts.

Him chasing a ring is irrelevent but he WAS washed up at that point; he was 35. Havlicek started noticeably tailing off at the same age, if you'd forgotten.

I repeat: if I can pick any player in NBA history to guard a Kobe or a Jordan, I pick Havlicek without a second thought. If told I can't have him and I have to pick anyone else, I pick Moncreif or Frazier. If I have to pick a modern, I pick Kidd. Payton doesn't even cross my mind.

I'd pick Frazier over Havlicek, Payton and Kidd doesn't enter the discussion. Kidd's good but he is no Payton. There's a reason Payton made four All-Defensive 1st Teams ahead of Kidd... and it wasn't like he had to work up to being a starter. Kidd played 33.8 mpg as a rookie and it increased from there.

EDIT: And also, Havlicek lead the Celtics to the Finals in 73-74 and 75-76. He won, but let's not forget that he had an MVP on his team; Cowens won the MVP the year before they won in '74; he was 4th in '74 and he was 3rd in 75-76 (he was also 2nd in 74-75). Kemp was a very good player and the Sonics were a good team but he ran into Jordan in '96, the Rockets in '97 (Dream, Drexler and Barkley), the Lakers next year (with Shaq)...

Payton led the Sonics as far as he could but he ran into the best single-season team in NBA history and then after the 96-97 season, Kemp was gone and so were the Sonics' chances.

What more do you want from him? Your comparison is invalid because of comparative talent. Hondo was aided by Cowens too much for team success to be a factor in this comparison.

[tracey_nice]

writerman just got destroyed.

[TrueLAfan]

writerman just got destroyed.

Well, no. I don't agree with writerman, but his points are well-taken. Don't let your bias cloud your judgment. In general, I agree with tsherkin here--he's identified (as usual) the key points that make it extremely close, but possibly a tilt to GP. Not a lot to choose from, though.

Minor additions: Havlicek's D was awesome...but, like most players in/from the 60s, Havlicek's strength was as a man defender. When the pace is so much faster, team defenses have less time to setup--and often didn't. It's only when you've got a lot of halfcourt offenses that team defenses become (more) important. And, of course, Havlicek's stamina--his ability to stay in front of his man for 48 minutes--is more of a factor in that kind of D. So I'd disagree that Havlicek is better on help D. Even though Havlicek usually had far better players in the low post than Payton had...as good as Shawn Kemp was, he was no Bill Russell or Dave Cowens...Havlicek's steal and block numbers don't show that he was making the kind of plays on the perimeter we associate with elite team/help D. (As opposed to, say Jerry West, whose only season of play when blocks/steals were counted resulted in jaw dropping numbers.) Overall, Havlicek was great on D; I think Jerry West, (to name one contemporary) was better. I'd slightly prefer Frazier too. In terms of sheer defensive impact and among Fs, I'd probably take DeBusschere too...he was a combo F in the way Havlicek was a swing player. Among great defensive players of the 60s/70s, he probably gets the least mention. Satch Sanders was the one who Havlicek emulated as a younger player. Jerry Sloan was pretty awesome; he deserves more props too. So you can't really ding Payton for not being "the greatest defensive guard of his generation" since Havlicek is far from consensus as the greatest defensive F of his generation.

(Side note about DeBusschere...I met him once, and we talked about 10-15 minutes. He said that in an exhibition in the early 1970s, he had guarded Dr. J. Keep in mind that this was when DeBusschere was older and Dr. J was at freakish athletic peak. Dr. J was shut down totally by Dave--no scoring--in the first half, "but then he scored 12 on me in the third quarter," DeBusschere admitted, laughing (a little ruefully). Two things...I didn't ask what happened in the fourth quarter...damn! And second...holding a peak Dr. J to 12 points though three would be a very impressive accomplishment. I know that Erving always spoke about DeBusschere with the same respect DeBusschere spoke about the Doc.

Finally...about the stamina. It's not like Payton didn't give 100% on the court. And while Havlicek did have the two (amazing) years where he played over 3600 minutes a seasons...Payton cleared 3400 minutes one season, and had 6 others with over 3100 minutes. Hyperbole aside, Havlicek was more focused on shadowing his man. But since he wasn't necessarily more effective and didn't really have much (if any) more court time in general, it's one of the few cases where he doesn't really have an edge in stamina. Payton was a horse out there too.