Danny Ainge's & Wyc Grousbeck's Biggest 2007 Blunder

[Jammer]

Last summer, when the Celtics decided to split the MLE between James Posey and Eddie House, I thought that it was a blunder. School Boy like. Ended up saving $1.5 million, doubled with the luxury tax, for probably a $3 Million savings. But no long term commitments.

I thought this because by first signing House using a portion of the MLE instead of the LLE left a limited amount for James Posey, reduced even further by the holdback given to make Gabe Pruitt's contract three years instead of two.

The net result is Posey had a player option for security in case of injury, but the Celtics were left without a long term commitment. Posey was a better version of what Brian Scalabrine was intended to be, for the same pay, which is a laugher, since Posey is much better than Scalabrine, since Posey can defend three positions.

And, by giving Eddie House a one year deal instead of a two, the Celtics put themselves in the position of having to revisit whether Eddie is on the team next year when a two year deal would have made next season a non-issue (and Eddie would have taken $1.5 million like this year if it had been guaranteed last year). Danny Ainge is very familiar with Eddie House, following Eddie since he scored 61 points in a game at Arizona State when Danny was in Phoenix.

Anyway, I think that the Celtics were too smart for their own good last summer. It would be a shame to lose Posey because they dick around similaryly this year, instead of coming with their Best and Final (meaning MAX) offer out of the box.

And, Eddie is such a great shooter, losing him, which could easily happen, would be unfortuate, even if the Celtics are able to sign Jason Williams, Tyronn Lue or Chris Duhon as a replacement ball protector.

[Celts17Pride]

That great blunder brought you championship #17.

Check the Sports Section of you local newspaper.

[JiriMania]

"Negative is easy, and we all fall back on it from time to time, it's hard not to. It's like a reflex around here, one that more often than not makes us feel better for a second or two. But sometimes it's as if we've forgotten what we're all doing here in the first place. And by here, I mean the Garden, I mean the NBA, I mean sports, all of it. The reason you surfed to Celtics.com and the reason you clicked on this link. Because you love the game. And before we go back to our life of whiner lines, Lindsey Lohan and backups on the lower deck, let's at least take the moment to appreciate feeling good for a change. To appreciate the price you've paid to get here. "

- Sean Grande

[Fitness Guy]

Remember, you have to take the meds REGULARLY!

[Maple Green]

Man, this is business of basketball. Deal today trade tomorrow. If you keep a things you're in the bussiness of antique.

[Truthiracy]

Not sure if this thread was made in a serious manner.

[JahReid]

The NBA is a business. It's easy to call it blunder in hindsight, but really, not wining a championship would have been their only blunder. It wasn't known how much each of those guys would bring to the team. I'd say they made out like bandits last summer in FA. Just wait and see how it pans out, either way we will end up with some great FA's wanting to win a title.

[Jammer]

It's easy to call it blunder in hindsight

Two things.

One, in the original post, I said that it was a blunder the moment it went down.

Too cute for their own good. Not now. Last August, when they signed Eddie House, and were still chasing Posey while competing against Miami, the Nets, and (Posey hoped) Cleveland, who sat on the sidelines last summer.

Second, the minute they signed Posey, they had their backup PF and SF, meaning a championship was withing reach. To only lock him up for one season was the mistake, but the mistake started with splitting the MLE.

If the Celtics wheels come apart, it didn't start with this free agency period, it started last August.

That's my point.

The Celtics can rectify it to some extent, by offering Posey near max in amount and term from the get go (perhaps minus a three year commitment to Walker).

But the House situation is unreemable. Giving him a second year a year ago would have been child's play. Now he wants a multi-year deal, and probably for more than the Celtics can manage.

But if the Celts used the full MLE on Posey last summer, they'd have the full MLE available this summer for other free agents like Dikembe Mutombo and Alonzo Mourning (Mutombo may come for minimum).

Until the Celtics jetison Scalabrine, Pruitt and Davis for picks or cash;
I don't want to hear them whine about cost containment.

[sully00]

You seem to have a huge misunderstanding of NBA finances.

Boston just made money. They went for broke with KG, Paul, and Ray and made money. They won it all it is on.

This isn't about Eddie House and James Posey. They are second tier guys getting love because they played here. Ainge is offering a full MLE deal to players who could contribute a hell of a lot more than 6-7 points a game.

Not only that he may be able to use the MLE, LLE, and resign Posey and House because right now Ainge can do what ever the hell he wants. We just won the NBA championship with a millionaire boys club for owners.

If he had signed House with the LLE he would not have it to use this year, at the same time he can now sign House to a contract equal to that exception. Sure he took Posey on what ends up being a one year deal and his track record frankly shows that is best he is an up and down guy. How would Boston giving Posey the money he wants now last season improved the situation? We would be locked into House and Posey and have very little flexibility to do anything else.

But you need a better understanding of the finances of the league. You can't trade Scal, Pruitt, and Davis for nothing you have to take salary back. Beyond that nobody is going to give you a draft pick for that package if they have cap room, but even if they did the draft picks would cost more money than Pruitt and Davis. Scal makes 3.2 and 3.4 mil it isn't worth getting so worked up over.

[bawstin]

They were able to sign those guys before KG & RA had ever played a minute of basketball as Celtics. Now they've won a championship. Why wouldn't they be able to find similar players with similar salary slots this year?

[Celtics_Champs]

Yep I agree 100% with this poster, which is why I created the site:

www.selltheceltics.com

[billfromBoston]

You seem to have a huge misunderstanding of NBA finances.

Boston just made money. They went for broke with KG, Paul, and Ray and made money. They won it all it is on.

This isn't about Eddie House and James Posey. They are second tier guys getting love because they played here. Ainge is offering a full MLE deal to players who could contribute a hell of a lot more than 6-7 points a game.

Not only that he may be able to use the MLE, LLE, and resign Posey and House because right now Ainge can do what ever the hell he wants. We just won the NBA championship with a millionaire boys club for owners.

If he had signed House with the LLE he would not have it to use this year, at the same time he can now sign House to a contract equal to that exception. Sure he took Posey on what ends up being a one year deal and his track record frankly shows that is best he is an up and down guy. How would Boston giving Posey the money he wants now last season improved the situation? We would be locked into House and Posey and have very little flexibility to do anything else.

But you need a better understanding of the finances of the league. You can't trade Scal, Pruitt, and Davis for nothing you have to take salary back. Beyond that nobody is going to give you a draft pick for that package if they have cap room, but even if they did the draft picks would cost more money than Pruitt and Davis. Scal makes 3.2 and 3.4 mil it isn't worth getting so worked up over.

....sully nailed it...Jammer, you have to understand the business of the league better...you are over-valuing Posey and House, paying no heed to the marketplace, and speaking as if subjective truths were actual fact...

Posey and House are support players who were brought in with FLEXIBILITY as the primary concern for this team---there are many ways to skin a cat, and Posey/House were one expiriment...it worked, but it certainly doesn't mean it is the only one..

The Corey Maggette offer is a perfect example of this...while everyone is romanticizing Posey's contributions, they are trying to measure Maggette against Posey's strengths...the fact is, Maggette brings a whole other skill set to the table that would add significant dimensions to this team...Posey's timely 3 point shooting was key for LAST years team, but a more diverse and dominant bench scorer would dramatically shift the tides of games as well...I do believe Eddie House becomes more valuable without Posey, but I do not believe for a second that this team could now re-constitute itself and improve even if Posey wasn't here...

[mr_sunshine]

You seem to have a huge misunderstanding of NBA finances.

Boston just made money. They went for broke with KG, Paul, and Ray and made money. They won it all it is on.

This isn't about Eddie House and James Posey. They are second tier guys getting love because they played here. Ainge is offering a full MLE deal to players who could contribute a hell of a lot more than 6-7 points a game.

Not only that he may be able to use the MLE, LLE, and resign Posey and House because right now Ainge can do what ever the hell he wants. We just won the NBA championship with a millionaire boys club for owners.

If he had signed House with the LLE he would not have it to use this year, at the same time he can now sign House to a contract equal to that exception. Sure he took Posey on what ends up being a one year deal and his track record frankly shows that is best he is an up and down guy. How would Boston giving Posey the money he wants now last season improved the situation? We would be locked into House and Posey and have very little flexibility to do anything else.

But you need a better understanding of the finances of the league. You can't trade Scal, Pruitt, and Davis for nothing you have to take salary back. Beyond that nobody is going to give you a draft pick for that package if they have cap room, but even if they did the draft picks would cost more money than Pruitt and Davis. Scal makes 3.2 and 3.4 mil it isn't worth getting so worked up over.

....sully nailed it...Jammer, you have to understand the business of the league better...you are over-valuing Posey and House, paying no heed to the marketplace, and speaking as if subjective truths were actual fact...

Posey and House are support players who were brought in with FLEXIBILITY as the primary concern for this team---there are many ways to skin a cat, and Posey/House were one expiriment...it worked, but it certainly doesn't mean it is the only one..

The Corey Maggette offer is a perfect example of this...while everyone is romanticizing Posey's contributions, they are trying to measure Maggette against Posey's strengths...the fact is, Maggette brings a whole other skill set to the table that would add significant dimensions to this team...Posey's timely 3 point shooting was key for LAST years team, but a more diverse and dominant bench scorer would dramatically shift the tides of games as well...I do believe Eddie House becomes more valuable without Posey, but I do not believe for a second that this team could now re-constitute itself and improve even if Posey wasn't here...

Hit the nail on the head. Posey is a nice role-player, but if we Maggette that would be amazing. The guy just averaged 22 points and 5 boards last year! Anyone who thinks Posey is "better" or "more important" is in denial.

[IEcelticfan]

maggette might be a better scorer and a steal @ the MLE, but he cant play 1/2 the team-defense of a james posey. i doubt he can learn it either over the course of a season, thibodeau defensive coach or not. defense + rebounding wins championships baby

[mr_sunshine]

maggette might be a better scorer and a steal @ the MLE, but he cant play 1/2 the team-defense of a james posey. i doubt he can learn it either over the course of a season, thibodeau defensive coach or not. defense + rebounding wins championships baby

And you say this based on what? Pierce and Allen were question marks on the defensive end until last year too. I'm pretty sure I'd rather have someone who can hit threes AND take it to the rack for 8+ FTs a game over Posey. There's no contest. Anyone gushing over Posey and wanting him over Maggs is crazy. You're probably the same people who want to bring Delonte and Gomes back.

[Jammer]

I think most posters are missing several subtleties.

1. When you reach the second round of the playoffs you cover about $25 million of the lux tax, the Celtics went thru four rounds of the playoffs. Penny wise, pound foolish is at an absurd level already.

2. Maggette can't play 3 positions like Posey, Posey is the mobile backup PF; backup SF; and occasional backup SG (as is Pierce).

3. Posey's and House's 3 point shot allow spacing that open up driving lanes and eliminate double teams.

4. Posey is a much better defender than Maggette. Very few NBA pkayers have ever intimidated me. Playing 3 on 3 guarding the draft's #6 pick at age 13 didn't intimidate me. Posey intimidates me. He's a real 6' 7", with arms practically to his knees, and broad shoulders. He is one of the few NBA players who if you square off against who has ever been able to do that. His skill set (he's very quick up and down the floor, and can do it well dribbling a basketball) is unique. Maggette is not even close in this area. And Maggette doesn't screen players off the boards like Posey.

Granted, Maggette can make plays on the offensive end that Posey doesn't, since Posey is a two trick pony on offense. All Posey does is shoot 3's, and occasionally drive to the hoop, with the occasional put back. Very limited. But his defense and ability to spread the floor with a 36% 3 point shot are things that Maggette doesn't offer.

And, if Posey and House had been locked up for next season by not splitting the MLE last year and offering a longer term to House, the Celtics would have the full MLE for other free agents this summer, as opposed to having to first re-sign Posey and House. So sully, they are worse off in terms of flexibility.

And Glen Davis, as a minimum contract player, can be traded to any team for a second round pick or cash.

Gabe Pruitt, as a near minimum contract player, can be traded to teams with minimal cap room and teams with trade exceptions for a pick or cash. Early in the summer, several teams will fit that bill.

Scal is a bit more difficult to find a team with cap room or a trade exception, but there are probably 60 worse contracts in the NBA. Off hand, I'd say Brian Cardinal, Jason Collins, Marko Jaric and Antoine who all just got traded had worse contracts, each for over double what Scal makes. On the Knicks alone, Jeffries, Marbury, Randolph and Richardson have worse contracts.

[sunshinekids99]

Hit the nail on the head. Posey is a nice role-player, but if we Maggette that would be amazing. The guy just averaged 22 points and 5 boards last year! Anyone who thinks Posey is "better" or "more important" is in denial.

I'm not saying that Maggette is not a better player than Posey. That would just be foolish. I do question Maggette's ability to come off the bench and be happy with that. I also haven't seen him play enough to know what kind of defender he is out there. This team needs a lock down defender off the bench. Now if the team can get Maggette and sign Quinton Ross as well, then I think they are onto something. Or if Giddens is a very good defender.

[sunshinekids99]

I think most posters are missing several subtleties.

1. When you reach the second round of the playoffs you cover about $25 million of the lux tax, the Celtics went thru four rounds of the playoffs. Penny wise, pound foolish is at an absurd level already.

2. Maggette can't play 3 positions like Posey, Posey is the mobile backup PF; backup SF; and occasional backup SG (as is Pierce).

3. Posey's and House's 3 point shot allow spacing that open up driving lanes and eliminate double teams.

4. Posey is a much better defender than Maggette. Very few NBA pkayers have ever intimidated me. Playing 3 on 3 guarding the draft's #6 pick at age 13 didn't intimidate me. Posey intimidates me. He's a real 6' 7", with arms practically to his knees, and broad shoulders. He is one of the few NBA players who if you square off against who has ever been able to do that. His skill set (he's very quick up and down the floor, and can do it well dribbling a basketball) is unique. Maggette is not even close in this area. And Maggette doesn't screen players off the boards like Posey.

Granted, Maggette can make plays on the offensive end that Posey doesn't, since Posey is a two trick pony on offense. All Posey does is shoot 3's, and occasionally drive to the hoop, with the occasional put back. Very limited. But his defense and ability to spread the floor with a 36% 3 point shot are things that Maggette doesn't offer.

And, if Posey and House had been locked up for next season by not splitting the MLE last year and offering a longer term to House, the Celtics would have the full MLE for other free agents this summer, as opposed to having to first re-sign Posey and House. So sully, they are worse off in terms of flexibility.

And Glen Davis, as a minimum contract player, can be traded to any team for a second round pick or cash.

Gabe Pruitt, as a near minimum contract player, can be traded to teams with minimal cap room and teams with trade exceptions for a pick or cash. Early in the summer, several teams will fit that bill.

Scal is a bit more difficult to find a team with cap room or a trade exception, but there are probably 60 worse contracts in the NBA. Off hand, I'd say Brian Cardinal, Jason Collins, Marko Jaric and Antoine who all just got traded had worse contracts, each for over double what Scal makes. On the Knicks alone, Jeffries, Marbury, Randolph and Richardson have worse contracts.

1. Yes the Celtics made a lot of money this season.

2. Maggette is a very strong player, I don't think Posey offers anything as a power foward that Maggette can't.

3. Maggette shot the same % from 3 this season as James Posey.

4. Maggette is not the defender that Posey is, but the same can be said on the offensive side of the ball. My real question is how far away is Maggette from Posey on defense.

[GuyClinch]

^^Agreed. People don't get it. As I said this when people complained our bench was weak.. Our big 3 will make them look better. And they did. Posey and House proved to be excellent NBA roleplayers but there are many other excellent NBA roleplayers to be had if they get priced out of our range.

Fans and commentators love to harp on the contributions of the "little guys" and build them up. But the truth is the NBA is a star based league. That's what many of us said last year - and we are still saying it.

PP doesn't need GREAT players around him to play decent - he just needs guys as good as the rest - average NBA players. That's what we had last year. In years past he has had BELOW AVERAGE players surrounding him.. Guys like GG, Welsch and Reed who aren't even in the league..

Hell remember when PP had guys thinking that Jiri Welsch was a good player? LMAO.

Pete

[vct33]

maggette might be a better scorer and a steal @ the MLE, but he cant play 1/2 the team-defense of a james posey. i doubt he can learn it either over the course of a season, thibodeau defensive coach or not. defense + rebounding wins championships baby

Defense is simply a matter of commitment. I believe any great athlete can play defense if they make a conscious decision to do so.