Hakeem vs Shaq vs Duncan, who has the greater legacy?

[Baller 24]

I think their legacies will be as follows:

Akeem- remembered for winning back to back titles with "inferior supporting cast" (if you call Clyde Drexler, Kenny Smith, and Robert Horry inferior; personally , I think that argument is not true)

TD- probably will be remembered as one of the best PF's to play (even though he is a center, but doesn't want to be called one). If he wins another title as the main option, most of you will put him ahead of Shaq, although he doesn't belong there.

Shaq- next to Wilt, the most dominant center ever. He simply could not be stopped by anyone or any team for years. He ranks in the top 10 of all time.

As far as his style of play, (Oneal) someone mentioned that he just puts his shoulder down to knock players out of the way, but they failed to mention the illegal tactics that defenders would resort to before the ball was even in his hands. He is constantly grabbed, held, pushed, etc. before he gets the ball. Little contact initiated by him results in defenders falling down, but when a smaller player (Billups if famous for that) does the same thing, it's not called a foul. So what is the correct call? Is it just a foul on Shaq because he's big? Or should it be a foul on Billups? If so, then Barkley, and even the great MJ should have been called for initiating contact to get to the rim, because they made a living doing that. The point is that for everyone that claims the refs let Shaq have the "star treatment" probably are fans of teams that he's beaten. Because people that have followed his career know that he's been called unfairly his entire career.

All 3 have excellent legacies, but I think people on this board overrate Akeem very much. I think it should be Shaq (for taking 3 different teams to the finals; 3 peat, and being to the finals 6 times. TD will be remembered for 4 rings and possibly being the best PF to play. But I still think that he misses the top 10 because he never repeated. His 4 rings are as much a testament to his team's coach and management for continuously reloading the team to keep it competitive.

He was the only all star on his team, and Clyde came the 2nd half of the season. Compare Hakeem's championship cast to the others, even Duncan in 99 and 2003 weren't the as good as 2005 and 2007. Hakeem is overrated? if anything he is one of the most underrated, he was basically one of the most athletic players while also being one of the most skilling players in NBA history. His footwork and post moves rank among the best, and his defense was very good.

[NO-KG-AI]

Shaq will definitely be the most remembered in the future, dunno how much that matters when discussing a players legacy.

[jaypo]

Harold Miner was a better athlete than Shaq and Duncan. Vince Carter is a better athlete than all of them. But does that make either one of those guys better? Kobe Bryant is the best individual player in the league today, but talent, footwork, athleticism alone doesn't win rings.

People always point to Shaq's lack of defense-but do they keep stats for altered shots, drives to the lane prevented, intimidation, etc? I agree that Akeem was a great athlete and had better moves than Shaq and Duncan ever had, but he wasn't light years ahead by any means. You guys need to go back to the 90's and 3Peat years when discussing Shaq, because if you compare Shaq now to Akeem in his last few years (remember the Raptors?), Shaq is still performing at a higher level than Akeem did. In his younger days, Shaq played against Akeem, Ewing, Mutombo, Mourning, Smits, and a whole host of 7 footers, so the argument about Shaq playing against inferior talent is moot. Look at Shaq and Akeem's head to head numbers in the 95 finals- they were basically even, but it took Akeem a whole lot more shots per game to score the same points, and that's factoring in Shaq's horrible f/t %. People say that Akeem had no help, but does anyone remember how big Clyde, Kenny, and Horry played in that series? Truth is, Shaq had no help. No one stepped up except for him in that series.

I've argued for a while on here that I have nothing against Akeem. I think he was probably the most skilled big man that I've ever seen (Skilled!), but Shaq was a better combination of size, strength, speed, agility, and athleticism. He may not have had the Dream Shake or the athleticism of Akeem, but Akeem never had the size and strength of Shaq. They each had their own physical attributes that they used to dominate in different ways. I still think that Shaq at his peak was far better than Akeem at his peak. Shaq couldn't stop Akeem's moves, but Akeem couldn't contain Shaq either. In the end, you can't argue that Shaq was the most dominant of this era, and probably only 3rd behind MJ and Wilt as far as dominance goes. He belongs in the top 10.

Another way to look at it would be to think about players in their prime playing against each other. Prime Shaq versus Prime Akeem. Who wins? Shaq was athletic enough to slow down Akeem, but Akeem was not strong enough to contain Shaq. Again, nothing against Akeem, but I'm looking at their entire body of work. Shaq has taken 3 different teams to the finals and won 4 out of 6 finals appearances with 3 finals MVP's. Akeem has 2. I rate centers like Wilt, Kareem, Mikan, and Shaq in tier 1 and centers like Akeem, Moses, and Robinson in tier 2. The top tier is made up of players that changed the game, and in Mikan, Wilt, and Shaq's case, the rules. They were completely unstoppable. Tier 2 is a collection of great players, but did not have the same impact as tier 1.

BTW- the argument about Shaq's greatness being dimished because of the help he had- well, the last time I checked, Kareem never won without Oscar or Magic. And Magic never won without Kareem. And Bird never won without McHale and Parish. And Jordan never won without Pippen. All of those guys had top 50 of all time to help them. I doubt Penny will ever make the top 50 list, and Shaq got thru Jordan's Bulls with him as a running mate. Wade may be great, but I don't think he'll be compared to Magic any time soon. And we've seen how the Kobe/Jordan comparisons end up.

[microfib4thewin]

You're telling me right now that because Kobe isn't comparable to Jordan, that Shaq doesn't have as much help as the other HoFers? Bull. For all his shortcomings Kobe will probably be ranked 2nd behind MJ as the best SGs to ever play the game. Wade when healthy was also on a tear, and while his jumpers were never improved, people including Kobe praised Wade for his poise and his decision making. He did so well everyone thought he and Lebron would replace the generation of old in Kobe. Hakeem had help, Shaq had help.

The 90s Shaq was truly an unstoppable force, but I've seen Shaq play during his 3 peat years since I live in LA, and aside from his right hook and backing his defenders down for a dunk he doesn't have any other moves around the basket. Shaq relied too much on his natural size to do the work for him, he complains about getting hacked, but he keeps adding weight while in LA and didn't have a great work ethic for someone who was selected as a top 50 NBA player. Duncan doesn't shoot FTs that much better, but because he's much better fundamentally he doesn't need to bulldoze his way inside the paint the way Shaq does and draw excessive contact.

[jaypo]

No. I'm simply saying that the argument about Shaq's help is moot because no one did it on their own. I think that Kobe was a blessing and a curse. Had he not tried to take over in the 04 Finals, they would have won their 4th title then. Kobe was far from the perfect teammate. His talent helped win games, but his selfishness cost them a title and dynasty.

So what if he uses his size instead of his jumper to score. Do you think Duncan would settle for a 3 pointer if he could consistently get 2ft near the rim? Why take something that is lower % when you can get to the rim using your power. Jordan got to the rim because of his speed and exlosiveness. Shaq gets to the rim because of his size and power. What's the difference? Why question the means when the end result is the same?

As I said before, there were hundreds of players that were more skilled than Shaq. There are players that are and were more skilled than Jordan. But skill alone doesn't win games and titles. You have to be able to take advantage of your strengths and minimize your weaknesses. Shaq's strengths are his power and size, and early on, his athleticism. Later on in his career, time and injuries took their toll on his body, so he relied more on his size and power, much like Jordan developing a longer range jump shot as time wore on because he lost some of his explosiveness. Shaq has always claimed that he wanted to be a traditional back to the basket center, not a hybrid like Dirk or Okur. He wanted to be an inside force and bang. He spent his time and effort perfecting this. Why change when you can shoot over 60% and win 4 titles????

[Baller 24]

Harold Miner was a better athlete than Shaq and Duncan. Vince Carter is a better athlete than all of them. But does that make either one of those guys better? Kobe Bryant is the best individual player in the league today, but talent, footwork, athleticism alone doesn't win rings.

I think your referring to my Hakeem comment about his skillet, but I don't think you remeber that Hakeem also won a pair of rings.

People always point to Shaq's lack of defense-but do they keep stats for altered shots, drives to the lane prevented, intimidation, etc?

Shaq has never lacked defense, he was a great defender in his prime, he used his body and size as an advantage against players on the offensive end, but guess what, during the time Shaq was the best center in the league...there was NOT ONE center in the league that was even close to what he was because all the great centers of the 1990s were aging and going down.

I agree that Akeem was a great athlete and had better moves than Shaq and Duncan ever had, but he wasn't light years ahead by any means. You guys need to go back to the 90's and 3Peat years when discussing Shaq, because if you compare Shaq now to Akeem in his last few years (remember the Raptors?), Shaq is still performing at a higher level than Akeem did.

This just shows me you obviously don't know anything about Hakeem, are you seriously comparing a 39 YR OLD HAKEEM (Raptors) to 36 YR OLD SHAQ? Well if your going to compare that then just compare 36 yr old Hakeem to 36 yr old Shaq..Hakeem aveaged 19pts, 10 rebounds, 2.5 blocks, while also being the center piece of the offense leading his team to the playoffs...Shaq can't do that on his own right now, his stats have declined greatly. How about 34 year old Shaq to 34 yr old Hakeem? Hakeem at the age of 34 was still considered a superstar, was all nba 1st team, one of the most durable players, with Barkley and Drexlar on his team he led the team to 56 wins, while averaging 23pts, 10 rebounds, and close to 3 blocks. Soo in the end No Shaq is not performing at a higher level then Hakeem did.

In his younger days, Shaq played against Akeem, Ewing, Mutombo, Mourning, Smits, and a whole host of 7 footers, so the argument about Shaq playing against inferior talent is moot. Look at Shaq and Akeem's head to head numbers in the 95 finals- they were basically even, but it took Akeem a whole lot more shots per game to score the same points, and that's factoring in Shaq's horrible f/t %. People say that Akeem had no help, but does anyone remember how big Clyde, Kenny, and Horry played in that series? Truth is, Shaq had no help. No one stepped up except for him in that series.

This is classic, Hakeem never had a supporting cast the type Shaq has had during ANY of his championship years. And yes he did play against those bigs in his younger days, but what about in his older days? there was nobody out there to stop him, no one. And not to mention the Rockets were the underdog team throughout the entire playoffs in 1995, they ended up as a 6th seed.

Shaq during a 2005 interview

"It all started with Hakeem. In my mind, it all ends with Hakeem. He's No. 1. No question. Always will be. I saw it up close.

I've argued for a while on here that I have nothing against Akeem. I think he was probably the most skilled big man that I've ever seen (Skilled!), but Shaq was a better combination of size, strength, speed, agility, and athleticism. He may not have had the Dream Shake or the athleticism of Akeem, but Akeem never had the size and strength of Shaq. They each had their own physical attributes that they used to dominate in different ways. I still think that Shaq at his peak was far better than Akeem at his peak. Shaq couldn't stop Akeem's moves, but Akeem couldn't contain Shaq either. In the end, you can't argue that Shaq was the most dominant of this era, and probably only 3rd behind MJ and Wilt as far as dominance goes. He belongs in the top 10.

Shaq only had size and strength against Hakeem, thats it. Speed, agility, skill, talent, defensive moves, offensive moves, every else belonged to Hakeem. Prime Hakeem can effect Prime Shaq's game, but Shaq on the defensive end, Prime Shaq can't do anything to stop Hakeem, nothing at all, hes just to slow. If Hakeem had the right supporting cast around him, he'd be considered even higher all time. He made it to the finals in 1986 his 2nd season in the league, with what was considered a mediocre supporting cast because Sampson was injured halfway throughout the season.
I'm sorry but from what I've read you know nothing about Hakeem.

Another way to look at it would be to think about players in their prime playing against each other. Prime Shaq versus Prime Akeem. Who wins? Shaq was athletic enough to slow down Akeem, but Akeem was not strong enough to contain Shaq. Again, nothing against Akeem, but I'm looking at their entire body of work. Shaq has taken 3 different teams to the finals and won 4 out of 6 finals appearances with 3 finals MVP's. Akeem has 2. I rate centers like Wilt, Kareem, Mikan, and Shaq in tier 1 and centers like Akeem, Moses, and Robinson in tier 2. The top tier is made up of players that changed the game, and in Mikan, Wilt, and Shaq's case, the rules. They were completely unstoppable. Tier 2 is a collection of great players, but did not have the same impact as tier 1.

Are you serious? most of the professionals would rank Hakeem higher then Shaq on the all time list. Shaq is definitely top tier center, but so is Hakeem, and this statement proves you know nothing at all about him. Moses is not a top tier center of all time? haha funny. Ewing and Robinson I can agree on, but Hakeem and Moses that is just laughable you say that, because top tier means your a center that can't be stopped, you take your team to another level, you simply dominate on both sides of the court. Seriously watch more then just youtube clips, and do some research over Hakeem, you'd be fascinated by him.

BTW- the argument about Shaq's greatness being dimished because of the help he had- well, the last time I checked, Kareem never won without Oscar or Magic. And Magic never won without Kareem. And Bird never won without McHale and Parish. And Jordan never won without Pippen. All of those guys had top 50 of all time to help them. I doubt Penny will ever make the top 50 list, and Shaq got thru Jordan's Bulls with him as a running mate. Wade may be great, but I don't think he'll be compared to Magic any time soon. And we've seen how the Kobe/Jordan comparisons end up.

And Hakeem's supporting cast was mediocre compared to all of the players you listed above.

Please reply I'd like to see what you have to say.

[jaypo]

I'll address Shaq playing against aging centers first. I brought up that argument about Wilt and Mikan because the majority of the people they played against (and there were exceptions like Russell) were a lot smaller and shorter, and not on the same level as either one. But does that either player any less great????

As I remember, Shaq came into the league during the primes of the likes of Ewing, Robinson, and Akeem. And Shaq in his 3rd year actually held his own against Akeem at his peak in the finals at a more efficient rate than Akeem.

I am not comparing the players based on their ages. I'm comparing them based on stages of their careers. Some players peak younger and fade out younger or vice versa. I'm talking about the years after their peaks. A couple of years ago, Shaq was 2nd in MVP voting, and should have been first. The next year, he won a title. And his prime ended years ago.

In one breath, you say that Akeem never had the help Shaq had, but in the next breath, you mention Barkley and Drexler. Let alone Pippen, Kenny Smith, Horry, Sampson, etc.

I never said Shaq or Duncan was more skilled than Akeem. About Akeem's skill set, he had prettier moves and was more agile. So does Dirk Nowitzki. Would you say he's better than Shaq or Duncan??

Actually, I remember more professionals saying that Shaq was the person that they would choose to build a team around and also was the hardest to play against on both ends of the court. And that was while Akeem was still in the league with Barkley and Drexler.

As far as Akeem's supporting cast being mediocre compared the the ones I mentioned, pretty much any team I'd mention would be mediocre to those guys. They were all top 50. However, Shaq had Penny and a bunch of chokers and led them to the finals where the "mediocre" supporting cast that Akeem had destroyed the "superior" Magic supporting cast. Shaq and Wade won the finals with their next best player being Antoine Walker. And the Lakers, well, they were a great team, but give me an older Barkley over AC Green and Samaki Walker any day. Or give me an older Pippen over Slava Medvedenko any day. Give me Kenny Smith over Mike Penberthy any day. See the pattern? Nobody does it on their own, and while some people here say that Akeem singlehandedly led an inferior team to a championship, he had role players that actually stepped up. That was thru no fault of Shaq's. Shaq wasn't guarding Kenny Smith when he hit that miracle 3 or Horry when he hit his. He wasn't missing 4 free throws allowing those 3's to tie the game. He was posting roughly the same numbers as Akeem was while fighting thru double and triple teams and scoring the same points while taking half the shots Akeem was taking. So, actually, Shaq had the inferior supporting cast in that series. Akeem's stepped up, and Shaq's didn't.

The reason I rank Shaq above Akeem has to do with what he accomplished, not how pretty his post moves were. Shaq has been to the finals 6 times on 3 different teams and won 4 of them. He has 3 finals MVP's. He is responsible for multiple rule changes (much like Wilt and Mikan). He has been an MVP, all nba 1st and 2nd teams, all star for a record 14 (or 15, I can't remember) years and would have been last year if he wasn't injured, all star MVP, scoring champ, and the most dominant force in the league for years. (And not to nit pick because I know what the response will be, but Akeem never went thru Jordan for his titles. Shaq did it for him!)

I am the opposite of a Tim Duncan fan, but I think he also belongs above Akeem because he has 4 titles.

[jaypo]

I forgot to even mention the fact that Shaq led his Lakers on a 3 peat. There weren't many teams in NBA history to 3 peat. And that is getting thru a very tough Western Conference, and TD 3 times!

[guy1]

I think their legacies will be as follows:

Akeem- remembered for winning back to back titles with "inferior supporting cast" (if you call Clyde Drexler, Kenny Smith, and Robert Horry inferior; personally , I think that argument is not true)

Clyde was not there for the first title. And Robert Horry was only in his 2nd year in 94. Houston obviously wasn't a bad team, and you actually forgot to mention guys like Vernon Maxwell, Otis Thorpe, and Sam Cassell. They were a great team, but they were definitely inferior to other championship teams that other great players had because the 94 team missed that great 2nd option. Otis Thorpe was Hakeem's best teammate that year. Is that comparable to someone like Kobe Bryant, Scottie Pippen, David Robinson, or Manu Ginobili/Tony Parker? So Hakeem should definitely get alot of credit for that.

[Baller 24]

I'll address Shaq playing against aging centers first. I brought up that argument about Wilt and Mikan because the majority of the people they played against (and there were exceptions like Russell) were a lot smaller and shorter, and not on the same level as either one. But does that either player any less great????

First of all Mikan isn't considered one of the greatest centers, and at most hes considered a top 50, I'm pretty sure many would agree.

As I remember, Shaq came into the league during the primes of the likes of Ewing, Robinson, and Akeem. And Shaq in his 3rd year actually held his own against Akeem at his peak in the finals at a more efficient rate than Akeem.

Also like to mention these stats, Shaq was less efficient in the finals then Hakeem.
# Game 1: Olajuwon: 31 pts - O’Neal 26 pts
# Game 2: Olajuwon: 34 pts - O’Neal 33 pts
# Game 3: Olajuwon: 31 pts - O’Neal 28 pts
# Game 4: Olajuwon: 35 pts - O’Neal 25 pts

Also if you look at the box scores, sure Shaq scored that many points, but he also commited twice the amount of turnovers per game, since Hakeem was also VERY good at steals (ended up top 10 in total steals, not to mention number 1 in all time blocks).

And get this: beginning in 1992, Olajuwon’s teams were 14-6 when facing elimination.

For a comparison, Shaquille O’Neal’s teams are 5-6 when facing elimination, and 1-6 prior to the Lakers’ three-peat.

Also visit this link http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/readers ... mance.html

Shaq admitting someone is better then him? thats a first.

"If I can't beat you, I'll be a man and say I can't beat you. I'm not going to [cry about it] ... I'm the first guy to say that somebody is better than me. I was the first guy to say Hakeem Olajuwon beat me in the [1995] NBA finals. He killed me. He dominated me. I didn't go, 'Oh, he's traveling. They had experience. Wah-wah-wah.' I'm a man. Hakeem Olajuwon dusted my butt."

In a Life magazine story, San Antonio's David Robinson seemed perplexed.

"Solve Hakeem?" said Robinson. "You don't solve Hakeem."

Orlando's Shaquille O'Neal felt the same way after going down in a Finals sweep .

"He's got about five moves, then four countermoves," said a stunned O'Neal. " That gives him 20 moves.

Ewing was the one that got his ass handed to him the most btw in the 1994 NBA finals.

I am not comparing the players based on their ages. I'm comparing them based on stages of their careers. Some players peak younger and fade out younger or vice versa. I'm talking about the years after their peaks. A couple of years ago, Shaq was 2nd in MVP voting, and should have been first. The next year, he won a title. And his prime ended years ago.

Yes you were earlier saying that Shaq is much more efficient then Hakeem was at his age, and you brought up the Raptors, where he was 39 yrs old.

Anyways...whats the point of saying this? Hakeem at age 34 in 1997 ended up 7th in MVP voting, while getting the All NBA third team, Shaq's last season in top 10 MVP voting was when he was 32, with the Heat, after that his downfall occurred. In 2006, he did make the all nba first team, but he didn't deserve it at all, Yao played just as many games but averaged more points and rebounds, while he was more efficient, I guess D Wade can do a lot when you have him by your side.

In one breath, you say that Akeem never had the help Shaq had, but in the next breath, you mention Barkley and Drexler. Let alone Pippen, Kenny Smith, Horry, Sampson, etc.

Haha...this is funny Barkley, Drexlar, and Pippen were all at the ends of thier career when they joined Hakeem. Kobe, Penny, and Wade all weren't. Smith and Horry weren't even close to how good Shaq's supporting cast was. And Sampson, well he was just a big let down, he was always injured, and finally the injury ended his career. Hakeem was the reason they advanced far, I'd also like to add that against the 1986 Celtics, with Larry Bird Hakeem couldn't be stopped.

Olajuwon was unstoppable in the 1986 Finals, averaging more than 25 points, 12 rebounds, and three blocked shots against the greatest frontcourt in history. The 1986 Celtics were 40-1 at home and 10-0 in the postseason at home. Olajuwon’s eight blocks in the fifth game cut the Celtics lead to 3-2.

I never said Shaq or Duncan was more skilled than Akeem. About Akeem's skill set, he had prettier moves and was more agile. So does Dirk Nowitzki. Would you say he's better than Shaq or Duncan??

Lawlz, I'm not talking about how good his moves looked, I'm talking about statistics and all the different types of things he accomplished, and for the record, I would NEVER EVER say Dirk has pretty moves

Actually, I remember more professionals saying that Shaq was the person that they would choose to build a team around and also was the hardest to play against on both ends of the court. And that was while Akeem was still in the league with Barkley and Drexler.

Well no ****, Hakeem was 34 yrs old, Shaq was a young and in his mid 20s dominating, why wouldn't you take him?

As far as Akeem's supporting cast being mediocre compared the the ones I mentioned, pretty much any team I'd mention would be mediocre to those guys. They were all top 50. However, Shaq had Penny and a bunch of chokers and led them to the finals where the "mediocre" supporting cast that Akeem had destroyed the "superior" Magic supporting cast. Shaq and Wade won the finals with their next best player being Antoine Walker. And the Lakers, well, they were a great team, but give me an older Barkley over AC Green and Samaki Walker any day. Or give me an older Pippen over Slava Medvedenko any day. Give me Kenny Smith over Mike Penberthy any day. See the pattern? Nobody does it on their own, and while some people here say that Akeem singlehandedly led an inferior team to a championship, he had role players that actually stepped up. That was thru no fault of Shaq's. Shaq wasn't guarding Kenny Smith when he hit that miracle 3 or Horry when he hit his. He wasn't missing 4 free throws allowing those 3's to tie the game. He was posting roughly the same numbers as Akeem was while fighting thru double and triple teams and scoring the same points while taking half the shots Akeem was taking. So, actually, Shaq had the inferior supporting cast in that series. Akeem's stepped up, and Shaq's didn't.

Hakeem's cast stepped up, and so did Hakeem, you keep saying that Shaq was more efficent but it doesn't quite matchup to Hakeem in the stat sheet. But Shaq throughout the playoffs and throughout the season had the better team, record, and players. But they didn't step up, while Shaq didn't make the extra push, and he admits it, go back and look at that quote.

The reason I rank Shaq above Akeem has to do with what he accomplished, not how pretty his post moves were. Shaq has been to the finals 6 times on 3 different teams and won 4 of them. He has 3 finals MVP's. He is responsible for multiple rule changes (much like Wilt and Mikan). He has been an MVP, all nba 1st and 2nd teams, all star for a record 14 (or 15, I can't remember) years and would have been last year if he wasn't injured, all star MVP, scoring champ, and the most dominant force in the league for years. (And not to nit pick because I know what the response will be, but Akeem never went thru Jordan for his titles. Shaq did it for him!)

Oh btw, Shaq is only an 11 time all star.

You want to talk about statistics? alright sure why not.

In 1993-94 he had a storybook season, becoming the first player to be named NBA MVP, NBA Defensive Player of the Year and NBA Finals MVP in the same season. The following season he rallied the Rockets from a sixth seed in the playoffs to their second straight NBA crown, making Houston the fifth NBA franchise ever to win back-to-back titles.

In his rookie year, Olajuwon averaged 20.6 points and 11.9 rebounds while shooting .538 from the field and finished second to Jordan in Rookie of the Year balloting. The Rockets went from a 29-53 record before Olajuwon’s arrival to a 48-34 mark, but they were eliminated in five games by the Utah Jazz in the first round of the 1985 NBA Playoffs.

Olajuwon ranked fourth in the league in rebounding and second in blocked shots with 2.68 per game. He played in the 1985 NBA All-Star Game and was named to the NBA All-Rookie Team and the NBA All-Defensive Second Team. He and Sampson became the first teammates since Wilt Chamberlain and Elgin Baylor in 1970 to both average better than 20 points and 10 rebounds.

In 1986-87, Sampson began to suffer from injuries and the following season he was traded to the Golden State Warriors. Olajuwon's production simply increased as he developed into one of the game’s top big men. Olajuwon led the Rockets in 13 statistical categories, including scoring, rebounding, steals and blocked shots. He began a string of selections to the All-NBA First Team (1987 to 1989) and NBA All-Defensive First Team (1987, 1988 and 1990), and was the starting center for the Western Conference All-Stars four years in a row (1987-90).

Olajuwon regularly placed among the league leaders in scoring, rebounding, blocked shots and steals. He won rebounding titles in 1989 and 1990, averaging 13.5 and 14.0 boards, respectively. And in 1989 he became the first player to finish among the league’s top 10 in scoring, rebounding, steals and blocked shots for two straight seasons. That same year against the Milwaukee Bucks, Olajuwon had 18 points, 16 rebounds, 11 blocks and 10 assists, recording the rare quadruple-double. He also led the NBA in blocked shots in 1989-90 with 4.59 per game and in 1990-91 at 3.95 per contest.

1993 season’s end, Olajuwon finished second to Charles Barkley in the voting for the NBA Most Valuable Player award. He was also named NBA Defensive Player of the Year for the first time, while reclaiming spots on the All-NBA First Team and the NBA All-Defensive First Team.

To summarize everything:
All NBA 1st: 6 times
All NBA 1st defense: 7 times
All NBA 2nd: 3 times
All NBA 2nd defense: 4 times
All NBA 3rd: 3 times
NBA MVP: 1 time
NBA DPOY: 2 times
10 time TOP 10 MVP vote getter
NBA champion: 2 times
11 time All Star
One of only 4 players in NBA history to get a QUADROUBLE DOUBLE.
500 win shares
number 1 all time in defensive win shares
9th all time in career points
1st all time in blocks
8th all time in career steals

He never had the supporting cast Shaq did EVER. Those were small role players that stepped up when they had to, but they were in no means a Kobr Bryant. And for the record I'd take old Barkley over AC green and Walker to, but I'd also like to have Hakeem in his prime, not out of his prime.

Top Tier All time: Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses
2nd tier all time: Ewing, Robinson, and others...

Mikan I don't know how the hell you even think hes top tier, I'm pretty sure over 80% of the posters would agree that he is not even 2nd tier material. His efficiency was horrible, and his FG % just makes you say eww.

I love Shaq, and I don't have anything against him, him and Hakeem IMO are neck to neck, but your just underrating Hakeem like hes a piece of ****.

I am the opposite of a Tim Duncan fan, but I think he also belongs above Akeem because he has 4 titles.

Well according to your logic, Bob Cousy is a better player then Kobe Bryant since he has about what? 7-9 rings?
I dare you to make a thread on who is ranked higher all time, Duncan or Hakeem, plz.

[microfib4thewin]

It's not about 'pretty' post moves, it's the fact that Shaq has only TWO post moves when the Lakers dominated, spin step for a dunk and his hook. The 00-03 were the years people thought Shaq was at his best. That reasoning had only to do with the titles he brought. IMO, ever since 2000 he has used only his size to do his bidding. He's not so much of a basketball player as a King Kong that nobody could stop in the paint. His weakness minimized? Please, his FTs have been horrendous for his entire career, and the only time he bothered to hire a personal FT coach he fired him less than a year later, his unwillingness to improve in that area and relying on mere force to clear up space for a good shot is the reason why he keeps getting hammered, which resulted in him complaining followed by pounding his chest yelling he will make it when it counts. Pick'n'roll defense? Also a weakness of his that he hasn't addressed to this day, and even though the Kings were squashed to irrelevance, Chris Webber made life hell for the Lakers and could have won in 02 if not for the epic choke job they did in game 7. His weaknesses are quite highlighted, but because games were allowed to be more physical combined with the dreaded illegal defense rule Shaq took care of business. When Shaq became a secondary option with the Heat, people believed it was age and injury that made him decline, that is true, but what is also true is Shaq cannot play the game of basketball without bullying people in the paint, as evidenced by him nearly fouling out for 6 straight games. Had Shaq's mind really been into perfecting his game, he could have won even more titles and not wore down from his knees supporting too much weight, but alas, he's as much of a dominating center as a player who has underachieved according to his potential.

[Baller 24]

It's not about 'pretty' post moves, it's the fact that Shaq has only TWO post moves when the Lakers dominated, spin step for a dunk and his hook. The 00-03 were the years people thought Shaq was at his best. That reasoning had only to do with the titles he brought. IMO, ever since 2000 he has used only his size to do his bidding. He's not so much of a basketball player as a King Kong that nobody could stop in the paint. His weakness minimized? Please, his FTs have been horrendous for his entire career, and the only time he bothered to hire a personal FT coach he fired him less than a year later, his unwillingness to improve in that area and relying on mere force to clear up space for a good shot is the reason why he keeps getting hammered, which resulted in him complaining followed by pounding his chest yelling he will make it when it counts. Pick'n'roll defense? Also a weakness of his that he hasn't addressed to this day, and even though the Kings were squashed to irrelevance, Chris Webber made life hell for the Lakers and could have won in 02 if not for the epic choke job they did in game 7. His weaknesses are quite highlighted, but because games were allowed to be more physical combined with the dreaded illegal defense rule Shaq took care of business. When Shaq became a secondary option with the Heat, people believed it was age and injury that made him decline, that is true, but what is also true is Shaq cannot play the game of basketball without bullying people in the paint, as evidenced by him nearly fouling out for 6 straight games. Had Shaq's mind really been into perfecting his game, he could have won even more titles and not wore down from his knees supporting too much weight, but alas, he's as much of a dominating center as a player who has underachieved according to his potential.

I never said it was about pretty post moves. Im not down playing Shaq, I'm just attacking the fact that hes underrating Hakeem.
IMO all time list:
MJ
Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Shaq or Hakeem
Shaq or Hakeem
and then on..
There basically neck to neck, you can't go wrong with either.

[microfib4thewin]

Shaq isn't overrated in terms of his achievement, but he is overrated as a basketball player.

[Baller 24]

Shaq isn't overrated in terms of his achievement, but he is overrated as a basketball player.

Did I ever say that? no. I'm arguing how Hakeem is underrated.

[microfib4thewin]

I was replying to jaypo's post.

[jaypo]

First off, I don't care what any "posters" say. That has no effect on me at all. And your argument about supporting casts still holds no water. What makes a good supporting cast? One that steps up when they need to. Well, Akeem's did and Shaq's didn't (in the 95 Finals). You counter that with the fact that they played good all year. But my example is specifically targeting the finals. Akeem's outplayed Shaq's, and Shaq and Akeem's numbers werer pretty similar, but it took Akeem a lot more shots to get his points. You can look that up if you like.

I mentioned Mikan because he was the first dominant center. They had to widen the lane because of him dominating. (I'm talking about impact on the game, not specifically numbers.).

You post all of those pretty stats from Akeem, but why don't you post Shaq's as well. We'll compare them. I think you're wrong about the 11 time all star. I seem to remember him tying the record last year (unless I am mistaken, which is a possibility)

Some I can think of- ROY, MVP, Finals MVP x3, 4 time champ, scoring champ, __ time all star, all star mvp, I'm not sure of the all nba 1st and 2nd teams, but I'm pretty sure there are a lot. 6 trips to the finals. Trips to the finals with 3 teams.

And you keep saying that I'm dumping on Akeem. I'm not. In my opinion, he's close to Shaq on the all time list. I just don't think he had the same impact on the game overall that Shaq did. I think Akeem was probably the most skilled center ever. That's saying a lot! I just think that Shaq has done more. (BTW, in 2006, Yao may have played more games and all, but Shaq won a championship, so I think his 1st team selection was justified)

Guy1- I did forget those players. But my argument was not that his mates were better than anyone. I simply don't think that they were as bad as the Akeem fans think they were. According to some, the chip rockets teams consisted of Akeem and 14 scrubs from the street. He singlehandedly won the titles. I disagree. They stepped up when they needed to.

I already addressed the fact that he dominated because of his size. Okay. Does that make his accomplishments any less relevant? That's like saying that Kobe should be penalized because he uses his jump shot to be better than anybody else. That's a ridiculous argument. Like I said, it's what you do with your attributes, and he has done a lot despite the fact that he gets called for offensive fouls that no one else gets called for, or gets called for defensive fouls when people plow into him and fall down. Sure, his size has been a blessing, but it has also been a curse. I go back to Barkley and Billups- both back down their opponents, sometimes knocking them to the floor, but rarely got called for the O foul. Since Shaq is so big, he constantly gets called for the foul because that same move creates more space. Should he be penalized? If so, everyone that does that same move should be as well.


If Jordan could do what he did and only have to utilize 2 moves and still shoot 55%, why would he change it? If it only took 1 move to get to the finals 6 times, what does it matter? So because he only used a few moves, he should be penalized? Did Karl Malone suck because he used the pnr for about 95% of his shots? Saying he cannot play without bullying people in the paint is ridiculous. That's like saying Jordan couldn't play without shooting jump shots.

And as a Kings fan, I can understand the animosity towards Shaq. I'd be pretty bitter if I had to watch the Lakers obliterate my team too. He did make a habit of anal raping Floppy Divac for years. I'll use your argument- Divac couldn't play the game of basketball if they wouldn't allow flopping!!

I'm not sure, but didn't Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, etc. have to play with the dreaded illegal defense rule? If I'm not mistaken, the rule was changed because of Shaq dominating the paint. Napolean Stern wanted the game to be more free flowing, and less of dumping it in to the post, so they changed the rules. Now, defenders can swarm anyone with any number of players regardless if he has the ball. Reference- 2006 Finals, Heat Vs. Mavericks.

I never said he was the greatest or most dedicated. But I have 1 child and a full time job 3 miles from my house, and I barely have time to breathe. He has 6 kids, is a police officer, and a major celebrity. I'd say that probably took some of his time in the offseason. But what you don't get from him is rape allegations and arrests. So he didn't spend all of his offseason perfecting his 3 point shot. He spent it raising his kids, providing for his family, trying to keep kids slim, hunting for internet predators, and occasionally, making an impromptu rap about former teammates!!!! (I threw that one in for comic relief)

[microfib4thewin]

I already addressed the fact that he dominated because of his size. Okay. Does that make his accomplishments any less relevant? That's like saying that Kobe should be penalized because he uses his jump shot to be better than anybody else. That's a ridiculous argument. Like I said, it's what you do with your attributes, and he has done a lot despite the fact that he gets called for offensive fouls that no one else gets called for, or gets called for defensive fouls when people plow into him and fall down. Sure, his size has been a blessing, but it has also been a curse. I go back to Barkley and Billups- both back down their opponents, sometimes knocking them to the floor, but rarely got called for the O foul. Since Shaq is so big, he constantly gets called for the foul because that same move creates more space. Should he be penalized? If so, everyone that does that same move should be as well.

If God played this game, he would have the most accomplishments, people that are enamored with that are the same type of people that worship Shaq. Of course, Shaq is a mere mortal, but he is physically gifted enough where he doesn't have to work as hard as other allstars in order to win a title. Kobe has a workout program called 666, 6 hours a day, 6 days a week, and 6 months a year where he goes between various weight training exercises, pilate, and 2 hours of jogging. Kobe's attitude is questionable and he's not the wisest out of a bunch, but he earned his abilities through hard work. If you REALLY want to go into an argument about Shaq vs Kobe in terms of their character, I would, Kobe is no saint, but Shaq has his fair share of wrongdoings, but that would detract from the topic of this thread.

I have no qualms about Shaq's achievement, I have said before that Shaq is one of the most dominating center at his prime, but if size and strength is the only reason he's a good player, then you have to wonder how good of a player he is with a regular frame.

p.s. I'm not a kings fan.

[Baller 24]

First off, I don't care what any "posters" say. That has no effect on me at all. And your argument about supporting casts still holds no water. What makes a good supporting cast? One that steps up when they need to. Well, Akeem's did and Shaq's didn't (in the 95 Finals). You counter that with the fact that they played good all year. But my example is specifically targeting the finals. Akeem's outplayed Shaq's, and Shaq and Akeem's numbers werer pretty similar, but it took Akeem a lot more shots to get his points. You can look that up if you like.

Yeah but Shaq was also bothered a lot by Hakeem, due to his interior man to man defense. Shaq committed tons of turnovers and had a hard time getting positioned down low.

I mentioned Mikan because he was the first dominant center. They had to widen the lane because of him dominating. (I'm talking about impact on the game, not specifically numbers.).

This was during an era where the NBA was simply very weak, Russell didn't come in until what 5-6 yrs later? I don't have the information first hand but I think thats right

You post all of those pretty stats from Akeem, but why don't you post Shaq's as well. We'll compare them. I think you're wrong about the 11 time all star. I seem to remember him tying the record last year (unless I am mistaken, which is a possibility)

Well I didn't post Shaq's simply because I agree what you say about Shaq, I'm just disagreeing what your saying about Hakeem, your just highly underrating him thats all. There both top 10 All Time IMO and I'm pretty sure you'd agree to with the recent stats you read about him.

And you keep saying that I'm dumping on Akeem. I'm not. In my opinion, he's close to Shaq on the all time list. I just don't think he had the same impact on the game overall that Shaq did. I think Akeem was probably the most skilled center ever. That's saying a lot! I just think that Shaq has done more. (BTW, in 2006, Yao may have played more games and all, but Shaq won a championship, so I think his 1st team selection was justified)

Agreed, I'm just saying there neck to neck, if your going to say Hakeem was a 2nd tier then thats wrong, because all the players you listed in his class Hakeem simply destroyed them. Also like to add that you can look at numerous all time lists and both Shaq and Hakeem are going to be either in the top 10-15. You can argue his impact was big due to his dominance, but Hakeem's was pretty freaking big if you start out from the first year in the league where he turned that Rockets team around and led it to the playoffs, then the finals. Sure Sampson may have had a lot to do with that, but Sampson was shut down in many different games, Hakeem was unstoppable, not even McHale, Pariash, Mcadoo, and Kareem could stop him. His supporting cast did step up I agree, but I think Hakeem has never ever had the type cast that Shaq has had in the prime of his career. They are neck to neck but I just wanted to show you how badly you were underrating Hakeem, I don't have a problem with someone taking Shaq, but when you were saying things like they quite aren't on the same level then that doesn't make sense because his impact was freaking amazing, and if you don't think so please download some games, just watch him play, watch the effect he has on the game, its VERY noticeable. Oh and don't get me started on Moses Malone The others I agree were 2nd tier Ewing, Robinson,etc.

Btw all NBA teams are decided after the first round, I have no idea why he won, but I'm pretty sure Dwayne Wade had a lot to do with it.

[jaypo]

I'm pretty sure that Shaq had something to do with Wade being able to shine like he did. Not taking anything away from DWade, but it makes life easier when you have 3 men covering Shaq. That's 2 less defenders to stop you on the way to the hoop.