Would the ASG override Rick Sund?

Post #1 » by **HMFFL** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 3:57 pm

Two of the more important free-agent situations this summer will be those of Atlanta Hawks PF Josh Smith and G/F Josh Childress, who are both restricted free agents.

The Hawks are still coping with an unsettled ownership situation, one that could set back the progress of a team that showed promise by taking the NBA champion Boston Celtics to seven games in the playoffs.

General manager Rick Sund has let other teams know that he will match any offers for Smith or Childress. But if the offers are big enough, some league sources say, ownership could override Sund. ...

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killbuckner · Post #2 » by **killbuckner** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 4:06 pm

it means nothing to say that you will match any offer. Its clear that this is BS- no one actually believes that the Hawks would match a huge offer to Childress. Its free to say you are going to match any offer and there is no reason at all to say anything else.

conleyorbust · Post #3 » by **conleyorbust** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 4:17 pm

killbuckner wrote:it means nothing to say that you will match any offer. Its clear that this is BS- no one actually believes that the Hawks would match a huge offer to Childress. Its free to say you are going to match any offer and there is no reason at all to say anything else.

True. In the context of this article however, I wouldn't put much stock into it. Its the same thing we've been hearing for years now, "people say Hawks ownership is cheap". It may be true, it may not be but a "league source" could be just about anyone.

killbuckner · Post #4 » by **killbuckner** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 4:24 pm

The biggest reason that I think the Hawks would match a max offer to Smith is that you aren't hearing him talk to teams over the cap. If the Hawks were really worried about letting him walk then right now they SHOULD be talking to all teams about a S&T for him. Smith could get more money in a S&T than he can with an outright FA signing.

And I'll give the other side as well. You would think that at this point the hawks know a huge offer to Smith is coming. It would be better for them to just lock him into a normal contract that doesn't contain the big signingbonus than to go through the match process. Its not going to be great for the team if the appearance is that Smith wants out.

lunarblues · Post #5 » by **lunarblues** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 4:49 pm

i doubt that any of them gets sent away, and when you look at the ASG, for the most part they have been about the winning and not being cheap. the only person that was about being cheap was belkin and he's not part of the group anymore. i can't think about a time when we've been cheap. we gave joe johnson a big contract. we tried to sign sam cassell for over 8 mil a year. hell we gave speedy claxton 25 million dollars. only reason our payroll has been so low is because of the rookies. it would be a shift in their philosophy to go cheap now.

evildallas · Post #6 » by **evildallas** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 4:51 pm

Well, there is no reason for him to talk to anyone else as those are the only teams that can't set his price. A team over the cap just has to be willing to pay that price and trade equivalent dollar assets for him. Josh wouldn't have a choice in the S&T deal in those cases because he is an RFA.

As for a Smith vs. Childress debate for ownership, although Childress is a lot less expensive, he doesn't bring the marketing weight that Smith does. If Smith isn't matched that should have a much larger impact on tickets and fan interest.

lunarblues · Post #7 » by **lunarblues** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 5:03 pm

childress could possibly be had if only because they would like to use the 6-8 million he'll get on other parts of the bench (i don't think this is going to happen since 6-8 mil is the going rate for quality sixth men anyway) but the ASG aren't going to let go of their second best player

NDaATL · Post #8 » by **NDaATL** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 5:27 pm

I just can't force myself to believe that the ASG are dumb enough to lose Smith for the 1 year rental of Bibby. We would have around 15 million cap space had we not traded for Bibby, and resigning Smith wouldn't even be an issue. However, we have Bibby for ONE extra year, and I just can't believe they'd do that trade knowing they wouldn't sign a big offer for Smith.

Hawks · Post #9 » by **Hawks** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 5:35 pm

I have hard time believing ASG would be stupid enough to take on Bibby contract knowing full well Smoove and Chill will get lucrative contract offers this season. If it pushes them into the luxury tax then I think ASG might be willing to pay that luxury tax for one season if it means keeping these two. Also something else to consider. ASG was ready to hand Brian Campbell, a defenseman in the NHL, 8 years/$60 Million to come play for the Thrashers. Now the Thrashers are way under the cap. For them to offer that kind of money to one player is a positive sign in my book.

killbuckner · Post #10 » by **killbuckner** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 5:41 pm

NDaATL- I don't see bibby as the issue at all. I think its the 80 million dollars over a 5 year contract and 14 million dollars out of pocket in a week. Honestly if Josh Smith gets Maxed out then he is likely one of the most overpaid players in the league. if he doesn't continue to improve or gets injured then he could become an albatross contract. No one here thinks that Smith is really worth a max contract though thats what he is pretty likely to get at this point. Its just that the cost of losing him for nothing might be higher than the cost of overpaying him.

NDaATL · Post #11 » by **NDaATL** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 6:37 pm

killbuckner wrote:NDaATL- I don't see bibby as the issue at all. I think its the 80 million dollars over a 5 year contract and 14 million dollars out of pocket in a week. Honestly if Josh Smith gets Maxed out then he is likely one of the most overpaid players in the league. if he doesn't continue to improve or gets injured then he could become an albatross contract. No one here thinks that Smith is really worth a max contract though thats what he is pretty likely to get at this point. Its just that the cost of losing him for nothing might be higher than the cost of overpaying him.

Exactly, Smith is not worth a max contract as of now. But the utility cost of losing him is greater than the utility cost of overpaying him IMO.

If we lose Smith for nothing, we don't have cap space this offseason. We don't make the playoffs next year. JJ is an expiring contract starting the next season and it's basically a LOCK that he leaves after it's up. I just don't want to have to completely start over again.

td00 · Post #12 » by **td00** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 6:47 pm

I thought this might be a good time for a quiz...........Can you guess this player?

Outstanding athlete with great wingspan........
Lots of energy......
Can post up, take the outside shot, pass the ball, put it on the floor.
Good driving to the basket......
Great defensive player......
Lots of steals and blocks...
NOT a go-to guy offensively....
Jump shot is often inconsistent.........

It sure sounds like someone we know very well.........and this player is making $49.5M in the next 3 years........easy answer, and please someone who says that an athlete is overpaid just has to look around and tell me who is NOT overpaid for playing basketball.
If it is about what Smoove is worth, then the ASG should have signed Smoove last year to a $55M deal when they had a chance. They aren't going to get off cheap now.
Same for Chills........of course 8 teams have inquired about him. If you can get him for 5-6M, he will attract interest. But I think Chills is looking at the Ginobili numbers and is looking to get somewhat closer to those numbers than the MLE. There is no guarantee he is coming back to Philips.

BTW, Kirilenko is the answer above and he compares favorably to Smoove and he is approaching his 28th birthday.

As for Sund being over ridden by the ASG......you bet they have the final say. He isn't going to come in here and make earth shattering decisions. The ASG will always have the final say to any signing. Sund can bring in anyone he wants......the ASG will decide what is going to be offered and for how long.
Looking at the Celtics/Lakers rosters, a couple of things come to mind:

1) Boston has 3 salaries higher than our top salary Bibby. The Lakers have 2 and probably plan on going for a 3rd should they be able to do a Odom/Marion deal.

2) You're going to have to spend to be a threat in April/May and June. More games=more revenue.
The ASG is going to have to extend their commitment and change the culture of their ownership group.

Can they compete with Dallas and Cuban? Doubt it, but we all know the franchise' value went up last year after the playoffs. It is time to make a splash that will give this city confidence in this product.........kind of like the Malone/Theus signings........funny thing is is that we could use both Malone and Theus right now for this roster.

NDaATL · Post #13 » by **NDaATL** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 7:15 pm

I wanted Smith signed last year, I posted numerous times on that. I knew he'd probably get the max if we let him hit RFA. And, everyone isn't overpaid. Smith shouldn't make more than Kevin Martin and Al Jefferson IMO. But, that's what those teams get for resigning their guys early, like we should have done with Smith instead of lowballing him with a 45 million for 5 years offer.

And like I said, we must resign him no matter what IMO, because the cost of losing him is much greater than the cost of overpaying him, even if it's 5 years, 80 million.

HoopsGuru25 · Post #14 » by **HoopsGuru25** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 7:34 pm

Exactly, Smith is not worth a max contract as of now. But the utility cost of losing him is greater than the utility cost of overpaying him IMO.

If we lose Smith for nothing, we don't have cap space this offseason. We don't make the playoffs next year. JJ is an expiring contract starting the next season and it's basically a LOCK that he leaves after it's up. I just don't want to have to completely start over again.

Matching an offer to Smith where you are grossly overpaying(80+ million)would actually be the worst case scenario. We could actually tear the team down(aside from Horford and maybe Law/Marvin)and go into rebuilding mode if we wanted to. It would suck to go through another 3-4 years of rebuilding but I guarantee the Hawks would be in a better situation(unless they blow the draft picks again) down the line than the team that signed Smith. If GS did offer the max to Smith...we'd be stuck with his contract until he was an expiring with no chance to win a title and no way to way to get under the cap because we had a non super-star making super-star money which always backfires(JO/Marbury/Francis/etc). We'd have to go through about 4 years of mediocre basketball before we even thought about rebuilding. Hopefully this isn't an option though and he just signed the offer from Philly.

I wanted Smith signed last year, I posted numerous times on that. I knew he'd probably get the max if we let him hit RFA. And, everyone isn't overpaid. Smith shouldn't make more than Kevin Martin and Al Jefferson IMO. But, that's what those teams get for resigning their guys early, like we should have done with Smith instead of lowballing him with a 45 million for 5 years offer.

I was saying the exact same thing last year too. You would think that the Hawks of all teams should have been prepared for this scenario given how badly Phoenix handled the Joe situation by lowballing him during the extension process.

NDaATL · Post #15 » by **NDaATL** » Mon Jul 7, 2008 8:13 pm

HoopsGuru25 wrote:Matching an offer to Smith where you are grossly overpaying(80+ million)would actually be the worst case scenario. We could actually tear the team down(aside from Horford and maybe Law/Marvin)and go into rebuilding mode if we wanted to. It would suck to go through another 3-4 years of rebuilding but I guarantee the Hawks would be in a better situation(unless they blow the draft picks again) down the line than the team that signed Smith. If GS did offer the max to Smith...we'd be stuck with his contract until he was an expiring with no chance to win a title and no way to way to get under the cap because we had a non super-star making super-star money which always backfires(JO/Marbury/Francis/etc). We'd have to go through about 4 years of mediocre basketball before we even thought about rebuilding. Hopefully this isn't an option though and he just signed the offer from Philly.

It sounds like we just have different morals. I'd rather bite the bullet and hope Smith improves even further to justify the contract, because it's only about 2 million more per year. while also hoping that Horford continues to progress and Acie becomes a starting PG. You'd rather say screw it and start rebuilding ASAP. I just don't want to go through that again. But, it's debatable as to which would be the better option in the long run.

evildallas · Post #16 » by **evildallas** » Tue Jul 8, 2008 5:23 am

I have faith in Josh Smith to continue to work on his game and be relatively worth the contract over the long haul if used properly. I have less problems maxing him out than I do paying Childress over the MLE to be used in the manner he's been used.

If you (ownership) really feel that Smith was just looking for a big contract and will coast once signing then I say match and S&T for the best you can get for him. I do want to say that in my opinion this team seems to have doubted Josh Smith since he feel into their laps at #17 in 2004. I feel he was over-drafted multiple times and still held of those picks by outplaying them on the floor. He also could have been locked last summer with some foresight and faith, but they didn't.